What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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And?? Is there a point you are making?



You are correct in that "the end of the age" immediately preceded the "promised and prophesied Millennial Kingdom." You just failed to recognize that we are living in the millennium now and that their age ended in Sept 70 AD. The Mosaic Age officially ended with the fall of the Temple. The Temple had been the symbol of God's dwelling place on earth. With the Temple gone, God's dwelling place on earth is within each of us believers. We no longer have to follow the Law and do sacrifices for salvation. We get salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE between the two ages!!

You need to consider how very different things are today in terms of how God relates to us compared to how He did prior to 70 AD. The other HUGE difference is we no longer wait in Hades for redemption and restoration with God upon death. We go straight to heaven upon our physical death. The '"the restoration of all things" was our re-connection to God that was lost in the Garden.

You might find this interesting, I too am a pre-tribber. But because I understand that the GT was in 70 AD when Jerusalem was surrounded by Titus, my prospective is different from yours. All of the Christians who were in Jerusalem fled before Titus came. They went over the mountains to Pella and thus all of them escaped the Wrath which came to the disbelieving wicked Jews of that generation.

The resurrection occurred in 66 AD and was witnessed by Nero and recorded by two Roman historians. In Rev 12:15, a river pours out of the serpent’s mouth to drown the woman representing the saints in a flood. At the start of the Jewish revolt, Emperor Nero, the beast with the wounded head of Revelation 13:3, was in Greece about to build a canal. This man-made river appears to be referred to in Revelation 12:15. Rivers and floods frequently represent foreign armies in the Bible (Daniel 7; 9:26; 11:10, 40; Psalm 65:7; 144:7, Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 60:5; Jeremiah 46:7-8; 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Ezekiel 26:3; Joel 2:9; Nahum 1:8). Thus the river and resulting flood of Revelation 12:15 are both Biblical symbols of the army Nero dispatched when he heard about the Jewish revolt at the start of the construction of this canal.

As construction of the canal began, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.” Recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground, the sound of a trumpet was heard. The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised literally fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable. . . .”

Since the resurrection is a spiritual event it would be far more visible in the spiritual realm. Thus the "rapture" is also a spiritual event. The rapture, "catching up to heaven" is for all of us who were alive in 66 AD or were later born after the 66 AD resurrection. 1 Thes 4:17 simply means when we die, we are immediately caught up to heaven without going to Hades first. Thus 1 Thes 4:17 would be better understood if it was written this way:

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (after death). And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

I believe this is what Paul was trying to say. Regardless, numerous near death experiences confirm that this is the way of it for the past 2,000 years. This was also the belief since 70 AD until Darby began his nonsensical charade in the 1830s.



Rather than a singular event, the rapture is an on-going event as supported by Rev 14:13 and 21:24. Revelation 14:13 reads, “’Then I ith heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’” Revelation 21:24-26 presents a similar message. According to these verses, the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open in order to forever allow the nations and kings of the earth to “bring their splendor into it.” If the rapture and resurrection occur all at once, as is commonly supposed in futurist circles, how is it that according to Revelation 14:13 and Revelation 21:24-26 people are continuously entering the New Jerusalem long after the resurrection and the rapture? These verses challenge this idea. However, what is stated in Revelation 21:24-26 and Revelation 14:13 are exactly what one would expect if life on earth continues after the end of the age and the saints who have outlived the resurrection are each raised to heaven at the time of death.

The 2nd coming happened in 70 AD at the fall of Jerusalem. There is no future coming of Christ in the Bible, although He can certainly return again if He wants and if He does, it would likely be in judgment again.

In Josephus wars 2,chapter 18,,7th line,,,fifth word "Pella" Josephus states that "Pella" (among other cities) was laid waist at that time http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html ...

You are saying that Christians fled to there who is correct you or Josephus and why do you think this?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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""They all happened""

In order for ALL MANKIND TO GET STUNG by the flying scorpions whose sting is so severe men cry out to die, someone,SOMEWHERE, would have recorded it,and ALL OCEANS AND RIVERS TURNED TO BLOOD.

You have no case

Zero
Of course these events happened. I've found that all futurists have the same thing in common - they are NOT historians. The other major problem you have is not understanding figurative language, especially in Revelation. I strongly urge you to read the relative portions of Josephus "War of the Jews" if you want to see Revelation come to life. Start in Book 3. Here's a free link:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/war-of-the-jews/book-3/

As for the two events you mention, the scorpions and the waters turning to blood, here's how they were fulfilled. Let's take them in the correct order. First, it wasn't ALL the oceans and rivers. It was a THIRD. Stick with the text.

Rev 8: 8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Mountain is a word frequently used in the Bible to symbolize a kingdom or city since cities were often built on mountains for military defense (Psalms 2:6; 48:1; Isaiah 66:20; Jeremiah 51:25; Joel 3:17). For example, the city of Jerusalem is often called the “Mountain of the Lord” throughout the Bible. Sea represents the Gentile nations (Daniel 7:2-3; Revelation 17:15, Psalm 65:7; 144:7; Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 60:5; Jeremiah 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Ezekiel 26:3). Because sea and Abyss, the afterlife realm of the dead, are synonyms, sea simultaneously signifies both foreign nations and the Abyss, the afterlife realm of the dead.

This symbol of a mountain being cast into the sea is a common metaphor in the Bible used to represent two complimentary messages. Foreign nations and their armies represent the sea or Abyss, the realm of the dead, because these armies cause so much death when in the act of war and military conquest. Thus the city or mountain victimized by foreign military aggression is sometimes depicted in the Bible as a mountain descending into the Abyss, the land of the dead, when attacked by aggressive foreign powers. Jeremiah 51:25, 42 is a prominent example of this symbolism. In these verses, mountain represents a city or kingdom and sea represents its foreign conquerors and the Abyss simultaneously:

“I am against you, you destroying mountain [Babylon], you who destroy the whole earth,” declares the Lord. “I will stretch out my hand against you, roll you off the cliffs, and make you a burned-out mountain. . . . The sea will rise over Babylon; its roaring waves will cover her.”​
When the city of Babylon fell in 539 B.C. the city was not overcome by literal flood waters just as the mountain city mentioned in Revelation 8:8 was not literally thrown into a literal sea. Rather, in Jeremiah 51:25, 42, Babylon, the destroying mountain, is punished by the rising sea representing the foreign armies of the Medes and Persians. Here foreign conquest and the resulting death toll are presented as the sea or Abyss flooding over Babylon. Not surprisingly floods are also a metaphor of death and foreign conquest (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; Jeremiah 46:7-8; Daniel 9:26; 11:10; 11:40; Joel 2:9; Nahum 1:8). The mountain cast into the sea in Revelation 8:8 conveys a similar message of death by way of foreign military conquest. Interestingly, Revelation 8:8 was fulfilled in a similarly figurative manner during the Jewish War. However, vs. 8 and 9 were fulfilled much, more literally than you might think based upon this comparison above.

The cities of Joppa and Taricheae were situated on the coast of the Mediterranean and the Sea of Galilee respectively. Upon the arrival of the Roman military, the Jewish rebels of these two cities retreated out to sea. There the rough waves and heavy winds at the coast of Joppa drowned many people. Their ships were also destroyed as they struck each other and the rocks along the coast. Many people fell into the water and according to Josephus were “dashed to pieces” against the rocks “insomuch that the sea was bloody a long way[.]” The city of Taricheae did not fare better. Upon fleeing to the Sea of Galilee, the rebels of Taricheae were killed by the Romans. Concerning their deaths at sea, Josephus writes:

One might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over the country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled.”​
In the quote above one can appreciate the literal fulfillment of Revelation 8:8-9 with the destruction of ships, the sea turning to blood, and the deaths of those at sea. Not only were the mountains of Joppa and Tricheae conquered by Rome, a foreign army representing the sea or Abyss in Revelation 8:8, but the people of these two cities were quite literally thrown into the sea–the sea of Galilee–and subsequently killed and therefore cast into the sea representing the Abyss, the realm of the dead.

Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

Interestingly, all the attributes used to describe this locust army were taken directly from constellations that would have been visible the night of Passover, the holiday in which Jesus was crucified and Titus and his army began their five month siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The fact that Jerusalem fell after five months fulfills Revelation 9:5: The locust army was “not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months.” Abaddon and Apollyon is an angel with an obvious human counterpart. Apollyon is a play on words for “Apollo” and “destroy.” Apollyon is Vespasian’s son Titus, the commander of the Legio XV Apollinaris (the Fifteenth Apollonian Legion). At the start of the Jewish War, Titus was the commander of the 15th Apollonian Legion before being promoted to general over all the Roman legions in Israel at his father’s coronation. Thus Apollyon is an apt title for the former commander of Legio XV Apollinaris (the 15th Apollonian Legion) who destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.

Locusts are an ancient Canaanite and Biblical metaphor for an invading foreign/Gentile army. This point is illustrated in the first and second chapters of Joel where the Babylonian army of the sixth century B.C. is portrayed as a swarm of locusts. This imagery is also found in Judges 6:5, 7:12; Jeremiah 51:14, 27; and Nahum 3:15. The same meaning is, of course, intended in the locust army of Revelation 9. The fact that locusts symbolize soldiers in the Bible is not surprising in light of the similarities between the Hebrew word for “locust,” hargol, and the Arabic word for “troops,” hargal. The similarity between these two words in these neighboring languages implies a common origin to both words and the fact that locusts were likened to troops in ancient Middle Eastern cultures. The fact that foreign/Gentile armies are symbolized by locusts is not just found in the Bible, it is also implicit in the Babylonian Talmud where it is said, “The destruction of Jerusalem [during Israel’s first century war with Rome] came through a Kamza [locust] and a Bar Kamza [son of a locust].” The reason the Talmud says that Jerusalem was destroyed by locusts is because locusts are a symbol of Gentiles or foreigners. This point is shown in Strong’s Concordance which defines Gentile in the following terms:

#1471 gowy go’-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go’-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of meaning); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts[.]”​
The fact that locusts represent Gentile or foreign invaders is echoed in this chapter of Revelation as shown below. This locust symbolism is multifaceted. When laying siege to a city, invading forces, much a like a swarm of locusts, will leave the surrounding countryside stripped of food, timber and vegetation in order to feed the war effort. These armies will also often set fire to anything their enemies might find useful as the Romans did when they burned many of the cities and rural areas of Palestine during the Jewish War. Interestingly, locusts “were known to the people of Palestine as ‘burners of the land,’ a phrase derived from the literal meaning of ‘locust.’” Furthermore, when seen at a great distance, an army of several thousand troops even looks like locusts in a field.

There is an old Arab saying paraphrased by Isbon Beckwith in which locusts are described as having “ a head like a horse, a breast like a lion, feet like a camel, a body like a serpent, and antennae like the hair of a maiden.” The locusts of Revelation 9 with their woman’s hair, lions’ teeth, serpent heads and serpent tails are described somewhat similarly.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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In Josephus wars 2,chapter 18,,7th line,,,fifth word "Pella" Josephus states that "Pella" (among other cities) was laid waist at that time http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html ...

You are saying that Christians fled to there who is correct you or Josephus and why do you think this?
Pella was destroyed early on by Flavius. We aren't told exactly when the flight to Pella took place but I always assumed it was before Vespasian arrived and certainly before Titus arrived. This, according to Eusebius.

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"

— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Pella was destroyed early on by Flavius. We aren't told exactly when the flight to Pella took place but I always assumed it was before Vespasian arrived and certainly before Titus arrived. This, according to Eusebius.

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"

— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

Which is the very point in that Eusebius and Epiphanius of Salamis(who you did not mention) were both against Millennial/1000 and were both Roman Catholic who were seeking to do away with any future type beliefs.

None the less they must not have been historians or would have known that the city they chose(Pella) had according to Josephus Wars 2.18 been laid waste and did not foresee that in the modern days the writings of Josephus would one day be online for all to read when they fabricated this to further preterism.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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My point in this is that if we look at Josephus Was 2,chapter 18,2nd paragraph,first word= "Judaizers" which is a Christian but not of the same beliefs as the Apostles http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaizers (see Acts 15 and Galatians)....

Then if we look at "flight to Pella" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Pella then the Judaizers who are mentioned in Wars 2 18 second paragraph,7th line first word (Josephus) and by Eusbius/ Epiphanius they are also "judaizers" and named by Epiphanius as the "Ebionites" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites and the sect of the "Nazoraeans" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect) who believed in Jesus but believed the Christians were to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses and saw the Apostles as incorrect
.

Now James the brother of Jesus(and others) who was told in Matthew 24:15,Mark 13:14 by Jesus to flee was killed in Jerusalem by Ananus ben Ananus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananus_ben_Ananus which would mean that in the opinion of James the brother of Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus (and the others) was that at the Time the ten generals of the revolt(Ananus ben Ananus as one of them) the Abomination of Desolation Jesus told them to watch for was not present at the stoning of James the brother of Jesus and so they were not to have fled at that time which they did not they were stoned instead.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Which is the very point in that Eusebius and Epiphanius of Salamis(who you did not mention) were both against Millennial/1000 and were both Roman Catholic who were seeking to do away with any future type beliefs.

None the less they must not have been historians or would have known that the city they chose(Pella) had according to Josephus Wars 2.18 been laid waste and did not foresee that in the modern days the writings of Josephus would one day be online for all to read when they fabricated this to further preterism.
No. Pella was laid waste in 66 AD. It could easily have been rebuild by 68 or 69 AD. Remember that Christ went to the decapolis to prepare the way. We don't which city he went. If Pella was destroyed and quickly rebuilt, Rome would have left it alone making it a perfect place for the Christians to flee.
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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One thing about the rapture and all things associated with it is obsession with the subject on this site with certain evangelical Christians in General. Christ never told us to get ready for the rapture but to be ready for his coming. Being ready is not so much in getting our theology right but getting our lives right. The greatest condemnation Jesus had of the Scribes and Pharisees was not
how well they studied Scripture but the condition of their hearts and minds towards God and their fellow men.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
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Sorry Hevosmies. Well I would delete my post but can't lol. I just talked and didn't reply as you had asked. I've listen to and studied this. I can listen to great men of God tell why they believe in pre-trib and back it up with OT/NT verses and I then say.. YEAH hes right. I then listen to the other side as to why there is no pre-trip and? yeah.. Hes right. haha They make great cases for why lol..

John 14, 1st Thes 4:16,. 2nd Thes 2:7, Rev 13. Then a old Jewish wedding. The simple where I get stuck is. In the order I set. Christ said that eye to eye and He can not lie. And then Paul used the word "WE". And something that has all power to hold back the lawless one. And he (not a man) is given power/authority to over come the saints. and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Your going to tell me you have a GOD in you now? And you have been given ALL power over who? Yet in the TRIB he will have power over the saints to over come then and all the rest. Hmm

How about a old Jewish wedding? Pays a price for his bride. Goes back to his fathers house to make them a home. And she waits not knowing when he will come for her. About a year later he comes back mostly at night with some friends. Makes a loud noise so she knows hes coming. Takes her back to his fathers house for about a week. Its ok.. I heard both sides for that. This in its self means nothing.

I can do like some and post in length if it pleases some. But for me I would have to "speculate" to make a case. Hes not saying to some there is a rapture "Caught up". Then to others nope you have to go through the great tribulation. But we treat each other like that :)

So it would seem I am for pre-trib. I have to say I can't prove pre or mid or post. I can see them but in each I have to add to something that was not clearly written. So its like this. I am in this house waiting for the owner to come home. Some are watching some know they don't have to. I have all my oiled filled and waiting. I was given this moment so I have faith NOW for His coming. Tomorrow..why have faith in a day I was never promised? And if anyone wants to say they are right and I am wrong.. great praise God. Does not bother me at all. Its not my word. I share what I SEE. I have to say I am human and I can be wrong.

He is coming. ANYTHING He said has to happen. Some will be watching ready some wont. No matter what TIME I am here nothing shall by any means hurt me. I will NEVER see my Fathers wrath that is coming on the whole world. And a thousand will fall on one side and 10 thousand on my other side but it will never touch me. And Satan will never be given power over Christ in me. MAN can hurt me.. try but Satan will never have that right.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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One thing about the rapture and all things associated with it is obsession with the subject on this site with certain evangelical Christians in General. Christ never told us to get ready for the rapture but to be ready for his coming.
This is why I'm often pointing out the following:

[quoting old post]

[...note...] the following passage (addressed TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]")

1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 [blb] - [explanation in brackets--note how the SAME Grk words are in vv.6 and 10]

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,
but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love,
and the helmet, the hope of salvation [an eschatalogical salvation, per context],

9 because God has not destined us for wrath,
but for obtaining salvation through [/by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen]
OR [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt!],
we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'-with/'IDENTIFICATION'-with] Him.

[THIS "WITH [G4862]" word being distinct from the OTHER "with [G3326]" word that is used of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" who will "go in WITH [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth)]


IOW, this passage says, "that WHETHER we might WATCH *OR* we might sleep [meaning the same as those words in verse 6] we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNITED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him" (and as said in relation to the previous part of the sentence/context); which wording (overall) is distinct from that which we see in the gospels and in the Olivet Discourse

[end quoting]

Being ready is not so much in getting our theology right but getting our lives right. The greatest condemnation Jesus had of the Scribes and Pharisees was not
how well they studied Scripture but the condition of their hearts and minds towards God and their fellow men.
Yeah, my contention is that, often, those who zero in on, say, the Olivet Discourse (improperly applying it to us/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") [many times] also do not properly grasp "salvation truths" (by their adding something to Christ and His finished work [alone], for salvation)… so stemming from their not "correctly apportioning the word of truth" as we are called to do.

This is ONE reason why *I* talk about it as often as I do... the OTHER reason being, for the benefit of those who will exist in the trib years following "our Rapture" (meaning, I believe our words NOW can/will impact THEIR "understanding" THEN/AT THAT TIME... So, I'm saying, for OTHERS' benefit [not so much for SELF-CENTERED reasons/SELF-FOCUS--see the difference?? :) ])
 
Jul 23, 2018
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quote;["the fact that locusts represent Gentile or foreign invaders is echoed in this chapter of Revelation as shown below. This locust symbolism is multifaceted. When laying siege to a city, invading forces, much a like a swarm of locusts, will leave the surrounding countryside stripped of food, timber and vegetation in order to feed the war effort."]

Lol
Wow what malarkey.
IT SAYS they were not to harm vegetation.
Hello,that prevents false speculation and VIVIDLY portrays the locusts as mutated insects.

You just killed the heart of your doctrine by making up what you are trying to pawn off as plausable.

Trying to make seas and rivers of blood by a shipwreck?????

I suppose by this same logic the nile turned to blood by dead frogs and crocodiles in moses day.

God does not need crafty cunning imaginations to loose mutated locusts or by miracle turn water into blood.

You are messing with Gods power. Trying to conflate natural phenomena into Gods ability to just speak fiery hail,water into blood,and mutated locusts to obey his commands.
He exhibited through moses and the prophets his SOVEREGN POWER.

He needs not mans nukes or napalm to destroy sodom.
He needs not a fire department to flood an area.

He is ABLE
HE is powerful
He is God.

Your argument is laughable and silly
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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Sorry Hevosmies. Well I would delete my post but can't lol. I just talked and didn't reply as you had asked. I've listen to and studied this. I can listen to great men of God tell why they believe in pre-trib and back it up with OT/NT verses and I then say.. YEAH hes right. I then listen to the other side as to why there is no pre-trip and? yeah.. Hes right. haha They make great cases for why lol..

John 14, 1st Thes 4:16,. 2nd Thes 2:7, Rev 13. Then a old Jewish wedding. The simple where I get stuck is. In the order I set. Christ said that eye to eye and He can not lie. And then Paul used the word "WE". And something that has all power to hold back the lawless one. And he (not a man) is given power/authority to over come the saints. and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Your going to tell me you have a GOD in you now? And you have been given ALL power over who? Yet in the TRIB he will have power over the saints to over come then and all the rest. Hmm

How about a old Jewish wedding? Pays a price for his bride. Goes back to his fathers house to make them a home. And she waits not knowing when he will come for her. About a year later he comes back mostly at night with some friends. Makes a loud noise so she knows hes coming. Takes her back to his fathers house for about a week. Its ok.. I heard both sides for that. This in its self means nothing.

I can do like some and post in length if it pleases some. But for me I would have to "speculate" to make a case. Hes not saying to some there is a rapture "Caught up". Then to others nope you have to go through the great tribulation. But we treat each other like that :)

So it would seem I am for pre-trib. I have to say I can't prove pre or mid or post. I can see them but in each I have to add to something that was not clearly written. So its like this. I am in this house waiting for the owner to come home. Some are watching some know they don't have to. I have all my oiled filled and waiting. I was given this moment so I have faith NOW for His coming. Tomorrow..why have faith in a day I was never promised? And if anyone wants to say they are right and I am wrong.. great praise God. Does not bother me at all. Its not my word. I share what I SEE. I have to say I am human and I can be wrong.

He is coming. ANYTHING He said has to happen. Some will be watching ready some wont. No matter what TIME I am here nothing shall by any means hurt me. I will NEVER see my Fathers wrath that is coming on the whole world. And a thousand will fall on one side and 10 thousand on my other side but it will never touch me. And Satan will never be given power over Christ in me. MAN can hurt me.. try but Satan will never have that right.
So it means nothing?
The bride/groom wedding and the vivid portrayal of jewish custom?

Consider this;
The first miracle was at a wedding
It had to be.
It is eternally recorded as the first miracle.

In the parable of the virgins it says "behold the bridegroom cometh"
It says the wise went ito the marriage chamber with Jesus.

You will never hear any position but pretrib champion the wedding verses.

They are vivid and that virgin parable is DIRECTLY CONNECTED to the rapture. DIRECTLY.

You cant have it both ways.

You cant force fit horses,judgement and tribulation into the rapture.

That is what people are doing.

The gt is jacobs trouble...not Jesus body trouble.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride,not the purging and beating of the bride.

The concept laid out is simple.
It is vivid.

Pretrib rapture is easily defended.

You WILL NOT see our verses on the table OR RECONCILED.

They can not.

Hands down nothing fits but pretrib rapture..

There is no high ground in postrib rapture adherants deflecting and skipping our verses.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Btw
The parable has the foolish virgins as saved believers.
They can not be anything but saved.
They are vividly portrayed as born again.

Ask yourself why postribs need that changed
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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One thing about the rapture and all things associated with it is obsession with the subject on this site with certain evangelical Christians in General. Christ never told us to get ready for the rapture but to be ready for his coming. Being ready is not so much in getting our theology right but getting our lives right. The greatest condemnation Jesus had of the Scribes and Pharisees was not
how well they studied Scripture but the condition of their hearts and minds towards God and their fellow men.
Actually Christ never told us to be ready for His coming. He told His disciples and people of His day. I wonder why they were supposed to watch and remain sober for an event that many on here think is still in our future, thousands of years into their future? Why would Christ tell people of the first century to watch and be ready for something that wouldn't happen for 100 or more generations? Maybe He didn't know when He was coming back or maybe He thought He was coming back soon but got delayed? Hmm. Or maybe, just maybe He did come back as He said He would and we didn't realize it because the nature of His return wasn't what we were expecting. Just a thought.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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quote;["the fact that locusts represent Gentile or foreign invaders is echoed in this chapter of Revelation as shown below. This locust symbolism is multifaceted. When laying siege to a city, invading forces, much a like a swarm of locusts, will leave the surrounding countryside stripped of food, timber and vegetation in order to feed the war effort."]

Lol
Wow what malarkey.
IT SAYS they were not to harm vegetation.
Hello,that prevents false speculation and VIVIDLY portrays the locusts as mutated insects.

You just killed the heart of your doctrine by making up what you are trying to pawn off as plausable.

Trying to make seas and rivers of blood by a shipwreck?????

I suppose by this same logic the nile turned to blood by dead frogs and crocodiles in moses day.

God does not need crafty cunning imaginations to loose mutated locusts or by miracle turn water into blood.

You are messing with Gods power. Trying to conflate natural phenomena into Gods ability to just speak fiery hail,water into blood,and mutated locusts to obey his commands.
He exhibited through moses and the prophets his SOVEREGN POWER.

He needs not mans nukes or napalm to destroy sodom.
He needs not a fire department to flood an area.

He is ABLE
HE is powerful
He is God.

Your argument is laughable and silly
What a fool you have shown us all to be. Mutated locusts? LOL. You are literalizing figurative writing and are too ignorant to see it. Foolish people follow foolish doctrines. The Roman soldiers brought with them weapons called "scorpion machines" pictured below.

1577895030535.jpeg

Titus brought them and they were only used during the final 5 months of the siege. These scorpion machines shot darts, sometimes burning darts over the wall. They were not used against the vegetation. They were only shot at the wicked, unbelieving Jews inside the city. They seldom hit anybody and were not usually fatal but they hurt like heck. These darts, as ineffective as they were, scared the crap out of people, which was likely the purpose. According to Rev 9:5, they tormented those without the seal of God, which was everybody in Jerusalem in 70 AD as all the Christians fled prior to Titus' arrival.

According to Josephus, conditions inside Jerusalem during the siege were so bad the people would cry out for death each night hoping they would not awaken to the same misery. This is in perfect fulfillment of Rev 9:6. But you wouldn't know this because you haven't read Joseph. Instead you are content with your futurist and false narrative.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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No. Pella was laid waste in 66 AD. It could easily have been rebuild by 68 or 69 AD. Remember that Christ went to the decapolis to prepare the way. We don't which city he went. If Pella was destroyed and quickly rebuilt, Rome would have left it alone making it a perfect place for the Christians to flee.

"If" it was...but your a Josephus fan right? and Josephus said in Wars 2,18,paragraph 2, line 7, first word "Judaizers" and it would be improper to think Eusebius or Epiphanius who were not present at that time like Josephus would have first hand knowledge like Josephus correct? That is the other two were born several hundred years afterwards and would be as valuable as you or me giving our opinions on Napoleon in 2020 if you think about it.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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What a fool you have shown us all to be. Mutated locusts? LOL. You are literalizing figurative writing and are too ignorant to see it. Foolish people follow foolish doctrines. The Roman soldiers brought with them weapons called "scorpion machines" pictured below.

View attachment 209220

Titus brought them and they were only used during the final 5 months of the siege. These scorpion machines shot darts, sometimes burning darts over the wall. They were not used against the vegetation. They were only shot at the wicked, unbelieving Jews inside the city. They seldom hit anybody and were not usually fatal but they hurt like heck. These darts, as ineffective as they were, scared the crap out of people, which was likely the purpose. According to Rev 9:5, they tormented those without the seal of God, which was everybody in Jerusalem in 70 AD as all the Christians fled prior to Titus' arrival.

According to Josephus, conditions inside Jerusalem during the siege were so bad the people would cry out for death each night hoping they would not awaken to the same misery. This is in perfect fulfillment of Rev 9:6. But you wouldn't know this because you haven't read Joseph. Instead you are content with your futurist and false narrative.

It's because you just see left or right,black or white and so you see all futurist as Darby followers and are blind to post tribulation and mid tribs.,, Amils. ect. in your approach,it's your Achilles heal in eschatology...
 
Jul 23, 2018
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What a fool you have shown us all to be. Mutated locusts? LOL. You are literalizing figurative writing and are too ignorant to see it. Foolish people follow foolish doctrines. The Roman soldiers brought with them weapons called "scorpion machines" pictured below.

View attachment 209220

Titus brought them and they were only used during the final 5 months of the siege. These scorpion machines shot darts, sometimes burning darts over the wall. They were not used against the vegetation. They were only shot at the wicked, unbelieving Jews inside the city. They seldom hit anybody and were not usually fatal but they hurt like heck. These darts, as ineffective as they were, scared the crap out of people, which was likely the purpose. According to Rev 9:5, they tormented those without the seal of God, which was everybody in Jerusalem in 70 AD as all the Christians fled prior to Titus' arrival.

According to Josephus, conditions inside Jerusalem during the siege were so bad the people would cry out for death each night hoping they would not awaken to the same misery. This is in perfect fulfillment of Rev 9:6. But you wouldn't know this because you haven't read Joseph. Instead you are content with your futurist and false narrative.
LOL
Read it for yourself;
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months

Wow,Now insert "CROSSBOWS" (WHICH YOU HAVE DONE) in place of "locusts"

Totally weird what you do to the word of God.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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It's because you just see left or right,black or white and so you see all futurist as Darby followers and are blind to post tribulation and mid tribs.,, Amils. ect. in your approach,it's your Achilles heal in eschatology...
Nobody could honestly believe the judgements and plagues of the gt are past.
Somebody would have recorded it.