What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 6, 2020

I don't believe this is acurrate (in the bold).

And I don't believe it is accurate, based on 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 (in the middle of a passage regarding the following two items):

"clothed upon" in this passage refers to "getting our glorified bodies apart from having to die first" (see vv.2-4 where verse 4 also says "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE") [THIS pertains to the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (this portion correlating with the "THIS mortal must put on immortality" of 1Cor15:53b, 52b,51b,54b)]

"unclothed" in this passage refers to "being apart from our body for a time, upon death, until the resurrection [at the time of 'our Rapture'--that one]" [THIS portion correlating with the "THIS corruptible" of the 1Cor15:51-54 passage--the other half of what each of the verses I pointed out above are speaking of (i.e. "the DEAD in Christ"), vv.53a,52a,51a,54a)

Therefore, I disagree that this is speaking of a "continuous event" that takes place upon the death of each individual believer/saint/Christian/member of 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' (throughout time)...

some of whom will be the "we which are ALIVE and REMAIN UNTO the coming of the Lord" (APART from having to die first, and who will be "immediately 'CLOTHED UPON'" with our glorified bodies, at that particular [singular] point in time [at 'our Rapture' event])... I do believe Paul grasped this (not that I believe he knew how long it would be until it took place, but that he was tasked with disclosing truths that pertain [specifically] to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence); i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]"]).

I believe 2Cor5:2-4 shows your viewpoint to be incorrect.

Jimbone · Jan 6, 2020

DeighAnn said:

No I am not saying anything is impossible with God, I'm saying God is not illogical and does not do things "willy nilly", and His word does not say anything about a coming third temple at all. The third temple has to be assumed and added to the text because people believe these things have not come to pass within THAT generation, like our Lord clearly said it would. Even secular history records these things and the judgement on the covenant breakers. The Jews that cried out, "we have no king but Cesar, crucify Him".

Mat:27:24-26

24 So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this man’s blood;b see to it yourselves.” 25 And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!” 26 Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

These Jew saw the judgement when the end of this age came to pass and the fulfillment of His word. God took on flesh, fulfilled the word in every way, laid down His life to pay the price for our transgression, then defeated death because the perfect man Christ Jesus was without sin, He never earned the wages of death therefore the grave could not hold Him! By His grace, because of His obedience to the Father, God took the most horrid of event in History, the only guiltless man ever to walk the earth crucified because He spoke the truth. His own wicked creatures just couldn't hear that they were wrong so the thought they'd kill the heir and take His inheritance. He then rises in victory and gives us the final marching orders to go make disciples of ALL nations.

God came to bring salvation, which no one disputes came to pass, but He was also bringing judgement and the end of that AGE. This was what He was talking about. I truly don't understand why it's so hard to see that both these things came to pass exactly like Jesus said it would, and the more you dig into it the more you see how everything clicks into place, for me anyway, ant without any charts, timelines, a guru to explain it to you.

Now just to address a few things you said and asked before I end.
" Didn't Jesus tell us the temple would be destroyed. Are we also told Satan will stand in the temple proclaiming to be?"

Yes He did, and it was. Yes we were, and he did do that too.

As far as
"And if you are promoting a "Jesus already returned" then where is the great valley formed from His feet touching the mount?"

There is a lot of commentary on this, and I have to admit this was the first time I started looking at this particular issue, but yes it is. Here is just a little bit I found on this subject. This was a very interesting question and I appreciate it. Also I am not saying at all that I am 100% on board with this information, I have a lot more digging, thinking, and praying on this subject fo-show, but it is very interesting. But regardless of any of these things you want to ask about and trail of subject about does nothing at all to address the FACT that Gods temple is gone, Jesus is King now and is on His throne right now with ALL authority in heaven, and on earth and will reign until ALL enemies are made a footstool for His feet. I'm not waiting for the world to go to hell in a hand basket until Jesus brings His earthly kingdom that we could point to and say "there it is", just like He said it wasn't, and just like the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to bring. His kingdom has come, I'm in it right now along with all those giving spiritual life and reconciliation to His Spirit by the grace of our amazing Creator Jesus!!!!!!!praise His name.

Here is 9one source I looked into in just these few minutes, but I am so wide open to researching and digging into it to find truth. Thanks again and I'll read ya later.

"Citing the Midrash, Ernest L. Martin in his book Secrets of Golgotha: The Forgotten History of Christ’s Crucifixion claims that a rabbi named Jonathan witnessed the departure of the Shekinah or Glory Cloud from the Temple in A.D. 66. The Shekinah is the presence of God. And the Glory Cloud is the visible manifestation of God’s presence. After leaving the Temple, the Shekinah or Glory Cloud then allegedly sat atop the Mt. of Olives for three and a half years before rising up to heaven several months prior to the arrival of Titus and his army at Jerusalem in A.D. 70.4 If this event did, in fact, occur during the Jewish War as Martin claims, then this event literally fulfills Zechariah 14:4: “On that day his [God’s] feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem[.]” See Did the Glory Cloud Leave the Temple and Settle Atop the Mt. of Olives for Three and a Half Years During the Jewish War? Regardless of whether or not this event occurred during the Jewish War, the fact that God stood on the Mt. of Olives is confirmed by the fact that the Mount of Olives was split in two from east to west by a Roman road in the first century.5"

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

Jimbone said:

Lets see if we can get this straight first.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Is THAT generation, the generation in which "thy coming, and of the end of the world?" the THAT generation you are referring to?

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

Jimbone said:

Things that take place when HIS KINGDOM is come

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Do you see my problem here? When Jesus returns "corruptible (flesh) must put on incorruption (spiritual)" because flesh and blood can not.....

The dead are raised incorruptible, and those alive are changed. ALL FLESH WILL BE GONE. The lamb will lie down with the lion. The child will play with a snake. Why? because we will all be in spiritual bodies.

backing up a bit

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Jimbone · Jan 6, 2020

All that scripture read with what you want it to say in mind, and ignoring the context of what is being said in those scriptures, and who they are being said to. How you are applying everything you just wrote is wrong, in my point of view. You are shaping His word to match what you have been taught it mean your whole life, not just reading it with the audience being addressed and what He is saying before and after the passages pulled out. It just doesn't mean what you're saying it means when you don't pull it out of context, and just declare out of thin air that it means what you want it to. I read everything you wrote and it all matches and lines up so well with what I'm saying too. It's doesn't even matter at all when still no one can tell me how the Abomination of Desolation can take place when the age of Gods temple is over. Nothing you wrote in these long comments does anything to change that hard fact. I believe everything you wrote, I just don't think it means what you're implying it does. I say imply because you didn't say anything at all about it, just parroted the same scripture you've been feed your whole life with no kind of logical walk through of how this all connects, you didn't help me to see your point of view at all. And I can't help but point out you still haven't even touch the dilemma of the "temple age" being over. Again you can't desolate Gods temple because it's gone. It served it's purpose and is now gone. God never ever ever says He is going to re-institute the sacrificial system, that doesn't even make sense and goes against everything we know about our God. It is finished, praise His name and go make some disciples. Holla-Boo-Ya!!!!!

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

Jimbone said:

Are you saying you believe we are presently in spiritual bodies?

You say the temple age is over and Jesus has returned. If that were true, then this would be the life we would be living now.
Because there is a temple in the Lords Day. 44:25 PROVES IT. Just taken a few snipets.

Ezekiel 40:2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.

Ezekiel 40:3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

Ezekiel 40:4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 40:5 And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed.

Ezekiel 41:1 Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.

Ezekiel 41:2 And the breadth of the door was ten cubits; and the sides of the door were five cubits on the one side, and five cubits on the other side: and he measured the length thereof, forty cubits: and the breadth, twenty cubits.

Ezekiel 42:1 Then he brought me forth into the utter court, the way toward the north: and he brought me into the chamber that was over against the separate place, and which was before the building toward the north.

Ezekiel 42:2 Before the length of an hundred cubits was the north door, and the breadth was fifty cubits.

Ezekiel 42:3 Over against the twenty cubits which were for the inner court, and over against the pavement which was for the utter court, was gallery against gallery in three stories.

Ezekiel 42:13 Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.

Ezekiel 42:14 When the priests enter therein, then shall they not go out of the holy place into the utter court, but there they shall lay their garments wherein they minister; for they are holy; and shall put on other garments, and shall approach to those things which are for the people.

Ezekiel 42:15 Now when he had made an end of measuring the inner house, he brought me forth toward the gate whose prospect is toward the east, and measured it round about.

Ezekiel 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:

Ezekiel 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

Ezekiel 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

Ezekiel 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

Ezekiel 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

Ezekiel 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Ezekiel 43:8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

Ezekiel 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Ezekiel 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Ezekiel 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Ezekiel 43:13 And these are the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit is a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom shall be a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about shall be a span: and this shall be the higher place of the altar.

Ezekiel 44:1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.

Ezekiel 44:2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

Ezekiel 44:3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

Ezekiel 44:12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.

Ezekiel 44:13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

Ezekiel 44:14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

Ezekiel 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:

CON'T

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

Ezekiel 44:16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep
my charge.

Ezekiel 44:17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.

Ezekiel 44:18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

How do we know it is the Millennium and not the eternal? Because there are still "dead" to come at

Ezekiel 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Ezekiel 44:25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

Ezekiel 44:26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.

Ezekiel 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 45:1 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the LORD, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.

Ezekiel 45:4 The holy portion of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the LORD: and it shall be a place for their houses, and an holy place for the sanctuary.

Ezekiel 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Ezekiel 46:2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

Ezekiel 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.

Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

Ezekiel 47:2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

Ezekiel 47:3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

Ezekiel 47:4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

Ezekiel 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

(Do you remember the "Gulf" in heaven that separated Lazarus from the rich man?)

Ezekiel 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

Ezekiel 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

Ezekiel 47:10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

Ezekiel 47:11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Ezekiel 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

Ezekiel 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

Wall · Jan 6, 2020

Hevosmies said:

Earlier i said 80 proof. After reading whats been writin here i'd now say it would take at least a hundred proof

PlainWord · Jan 6, 2020

bud62 said:

Good grief!! Zech 14, I presume?? That happened in the 160s BC with the Maccabees, the Mt of Olives splitting that is. The New Jerusalem is already here and we believers are all in it. It is not a literal building.

Jimbone · Jan 6, 2020

DeighAnn said:

Oh my goodness, really? You're going to throw this much of what you've copied and pasted, and still can't even address the problem at hand about God's temple and the Mosaic sacrificial age being completely fulfilled, served it's purpose and is over never to return. You won't even address this 1 point that everything else you're throwing at me crumbles under. Are you seriously trying to have a real conversation here? Doesn't seem like it when you're not making a case at all, just throwing out a weird question then hitting everyone with walls of text. This is why face to face is so much better, you can't pull tactics like this that lead nowhere. I have talked to you, I have answered many of your question directly, but you still fail to address my MAIN point and skate by it with "What God can't do anything?", really? Then just regurgitate walls of text at me like these things do anything but make people skip them.

Why can you not stop, focus in, think about the complete absurdity of another temple on earth, why? It's incoherent, and is not what Gods word says, and even by the best teachers know the third temple has to be assumed, and it has to be assumed because they believe these thing haven't happened first. They all do exactly what you are copying now, the pick and chose the text to support the idea they bring to it, they do not draw this view out of the text. No one that came to this book and read it for the first time, without all the baggage that comes from a lifetime of every leader, preacher, and teacher teaching this to you nonstop, would ever come up with this future pre-trib rapture. I just believe it to be a deception that through a lampshade on the fire He's ignited in the reborn. My church believes and teaches this, but when you sit down face to face in a brother to brother setting and start really looking into these things they usually, in my experience so far, tend get more quite as things are read and looked at, and leave ready to dive into things further. Take that as you will, maybe with an inkling that there may be something to this, or maybe to go nail this thing to the wall and prove their case, but either way to go learn more to His glory.

If you want to continue this conversation I'd love to, in your words. If you're just going to keep posting walls of text at me to "win the debate", then I wish you well in all thing and hope you have a great new year, but will be moving on. To be honest if you won't even address the only question I've asked the whole time then I will just take it that winning a "debate" is of more interest to you then truth and will kindly mosey on as well.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 6, 2020

Jimbone said:

I'm not sure how to word my question to you, so bear with me...

Something like, do you believe God dwelt in both the [structure called the] Temple as well as in "the temple of His [/Jesus'] body" at the same time?

[not that God isn't omnipresent... I'm not referring to that here

]

Consider the following passages, for example:

Colossians 1:19 -
"19 because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

Colossians 2:9 -
"For in Him all the fullness of the Deity [/Godhead] dwells bodily."

2 Corinthians 5:19a -
"how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them [...]"

Isaiah 7:14 -
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and she will call Him Immanuel." ['Immanuel' = 'God with us']

John 2 -
16 And to those selling doves He said, “Take these things from here! Do not make My Father’s house a house of trade.”
17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “The zeal of Your house will consume Me.”
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us that You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple [G3485], and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Therefore the Jews said, “This temple [G3485] was built in forty and six years, and You will raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking concerning the temple [G3485] of His body. 22 Therefore when He was raised up out from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Matthew 12:6 -
"But I say to you that a greater than the temple [G2411] is here."

I'm just wondering your viewpoint on that, since you also had made the point of God's shekinah glory hanging around for a few years near/ the 70ad events, long after the veil of the temple was torn (Matthew 27:51).

I've made the point before that we ('the Church which is His body' [aka 'temple' with no definite article ('the') used with it]) will not be present on the earth during the same time frame that [what is called] "the temple of God" [Rev11:1, 2Th2:4] will be present on the earth in association with what the "man of sin" will do then (there);

... and I pointed out how Jesus had used the phrase "the abomination [SINGULAR] of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel" (which, in the SINGULAR, is only used in Dan11:31 [some say this was "past history" at the time of A4E] and in Dan12:11 [and that associated with those day-amounts Daniel would be resurrected / 'STAND in thy LOT'] and that this one [in 12:11] has with it the phrase "be SET UP [H5414 - wə-lā-ṯêṯ / nathan]" and I went into that whole study in a past post... (won't repeat all that here).

I guess my point is, some are saying "THE temple" is NOW *in believers*/*made up of believers* but then they seem to do the very thing they are suggesting that only their opponents [for lack of a better word] are doing, by either having "God's dwelling" [earth-time/location] in multiple places at once [I do not speak of individual believers here], or by extending it further than the Cross (didn't Jesus say, on Palm Sunday [the very day the 69 Weeks total were concluded], "Behold, your house is left to you. And I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.'"--what do you believe was meant by that? [meaning, the bold/underlined])

Just wondering what your thoughts are on that. Thanks.

(Hope the question is clear enough... I think I still need to formulate the question better in my mind/wording... but I put it here for starters, lol)

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 6, 2020

^ Sorry, I meant this verse: "Behold, your house is left to you desolate [G2048]!" in Matthew 23:38 (v.39 then says, 'For I say to you, you shall not see Me from now until you say, 'Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.'") [so ignore "WHEN" I said He said that... it was before that point... but my general point remains]

PlainWord · Jan 6, 2020

PlainWord said:

DeighAnn said:

Ezekiel 44:16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep
my charge.

Ezekiel 44:17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.

Ezekiel 44:18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

How do we know it is the Millennium and not the eternal? Because there are still "dead" to come at

Ezekiel 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Ezekiel 44:25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

Ezekiel 44:26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.

Ezekiel 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 45:1 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the LORD, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.

Ezekiel 45:4 The holy portion of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the LORD: and it shall be a place for their houses, and an holy place for the sanctuary.

Ezekiel 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Ezekiel 46:2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

Ezekiel 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.

Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

Ezekiel 47:2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

Ezekiel 47:3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

Ezekiel 47:4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

Ezekiel 47:5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

(Do you remember the "Gulf" in heaven that separated Lazarus from the rich man?)

Ezekiel 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

Ezekiel 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

Ezekiel 47:10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

Ezekiel 47:11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Ezekiel 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

Ezekiel 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

You do realize that none of this passage was to happen or is to happen in the future, right? From Ezekiel 40:5 to the end of the book is a hypothetical. See how it starts:

4 And the man said to me, “Son of man, look with your eyes and hear with your ears, and fix your mind on everything I show you; for you were brought here so that I might show them to you. Declare to the house of Israel everything you see.”

So, Ezekiel was to be shown Israel's future and declare it to them, correct? Now read on in Chapter 43:

10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws.

Keep Ezekiel in context. He was born around 622 BC and living during the Babylonian exile. He died around 570 BC in exile. There was no temple in Jerusalem at the time of his death. Thus the temple vision he was shown in Chapter 40-48 was supposed to be the 2nd temple, not some future 3rd temple. But as we see in 43:10-11, the temple described was conditional. They did not repent and were not ashamed of their actions, thus they didn't get that grand temple Ezekiel saw, instead they got a much lesser version of it.

Jimbone · Jan 6, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

My thoughts on that are "I agree 100%". I do believe Gods temple in now in us, or should I say we are in His kingdom. If you believe what you're saying here then you know His temple on earth is done. There is no point, it has served it's purpose. So if we are on the same page here then how in the world can you believe in a coming AoD?

As far as "Something like, do you believe God dwelt in both the [structure called the] Temple as well as in "the temple of His [/Jesus'] body" at the same time?",
Yes of course I believe that to be possible, my problem is not that I can't imagine God can do that, my problem is it makes no sense, it is completely backward, and Gods word says nothing about Him ordering a third temple built, at all. I do understand how you are looking at it though, I just disagree and do not believe that's what God was telling us. Also I can't find where it says "Behold, your house is left to you" I only find where it says-
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (<---Didn't see the post after whre you corrected)

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Again this does nothing but fit perfectly with what I'm saying here. To me what you're professing here is that God can do anything and that that covers everything and any questions. What I'm trying to put forth here is that everything God does He does for a purpose, He does it in order, He does not "just do" anything. He ordered His temple built for a reason, and let it be destroyed for a reason, twice and both times in judgement. This last time it was after the promised Savior and the promise of the end of the age. All this took place and now everything is being put under Him, then He delivers a redeemed creation to the Father and dwells with us forever. That is where I think we're at. Just so you know. Also thank you for the direct answer and much more focused comment. Much appreciated, and also if I'm coming off too hard or offensive please know that I am not trying to be that way and I really like these kinds of conversations and I truly hope you have a great day.

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD (Birth, resurrection) (Grace)
and the day of vengeance of our God to comfort all that mourn (Returning as Lord of lords and King of kings)(Millennium)

Jimbone said:

I do much better when I can see it in the Word. If I understand you correctly, ALL this scripture has ALREADY HAPPENED, correct?

And if not, could you please let me know what hasn't. (Just copy and paste any future stuff, if there is any)

The two witnesses sent to earth, then Satan and his angels were cast to earth before 66AD?
Then in 66AD when the temple was destroyed it and the Lord returned for the day of vengeance of our God?

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

PlainWord said:

I myself don't call prophecy "hypothetical", I am no where near as casual with the Word. I can honestly say that thought had never once entered my mind until I saw it written. Kinda takes the breath away.

I also don't read a "translation" to come to that sort of a decision, for sure. But don't believe me go to the Hebrew, or the Lexicon or the Interlinear whatever you use and see for yourself in the original. I just quickly copied so not exactly accurate as I am not that good a typist and you will see NOTHING hypothetical about it.

In twenty and five the year of our captivity at the beginning of the year on the tenth of the of month in four and ten the year after after was captured the city on very same day this was upon me the hand Yhvh and He took me there. In the visions of Elohim He took me into the land of Israel and set me on a mountain high very and on it something like the structure of a city toward the south. And He took me there and behold a man whose appearance like the appearance of bronze and He had a line of flax And said to me the man Son of man look with your eyes and with your ears hear and fix your mind on everything I show you for so that I might show {them} to you, you {were} brought here. Declare all everything you see to the house of Israel. And there was a wall the outside of the temple all around and in hand was of the man a rod measuring…..

DeighAnn · Jan 6, 2020

Food for thought...

Daniel 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Daniel 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had there seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

Daniel 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground but he touched me, and set me upright.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 6, 2020

Jimbone said:

At first I was quoting Luke 13:35, where it says, "Behold, your house is left [G863 - aphietai / aphiémi] to you"
(see at link)--> https://biblehub.com/text/luke/13-35.htm

That wasn't *my* point (in the bold). My point was, the "WHEN" of when He SAID "your house IS LEFT TO YOU desolate [like, right now when I'm sayin' it! (see again also Lk19:41-44 "BUT NOW they are hid from thine eyes" etc... not will be 40 days later...)]"

I agree He does everything for a purpose, and Lk21:32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled" necessarily INCLUDES that which v.24 had just said (which consideration necessitates a study of "chronology" [WHAT happens WHEN in relation to WHAT OTHER THING/THINGS]), and this AGREES with the SEQUENCE/chronology also found in Matt22:7-8 [and related] as well as the SEQUENCE that Lk21:12's verse speaks of IN RELATION TO "the beginning of birth pangs" (Lk21:8-11/Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 [<--same events in all three passages]).

iamsoandso · Jan 7, 2020

PlainWord said:

lol, It didn't seem like you had read any of Ignatius epistles because if you had you wouldn't have used this quote... you would have known that he saw the Devil,Satan,prince of this world ect. as present in his day and that is so damaging to FP in that he saw him as not yet bound as in Revelation 20:2....

I think it's best if I give the epistles he wrote(in the links) and let the others click on them and then search for Devil,Satan, prince of this world ect. for themselves it would save me from quoting from all but a few of his writings...

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