Apostasy 101

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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You just DON'T GET IT and those who drew back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) were never sanctified "set apart" as genuine believers (those who believed to the saving of the soul) but were "set apart" as professing believers/active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of genuine believers. Feel free to read post #19 - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
Let me jump in here.....
Those who believe to the saving of the soul are those who CONTINUE IN THE FAITH. They believe TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL. Not some special class of Christian citizen.
Those who DREW BACK, did NOT CONTINUE BELIEVING to the saving of the soul. Not that they NEVER believed.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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You just DON'T GET IT and those who drew back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) were never sanctified "set apart" as genuine believers (those who believed to the saving of the soul) but were "set apart" as professing believers/active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of genuine believers. Feel free to read post #19 - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
Absolutely no such thing as being set apart or sanctified by the blood of the covenant NOT as a genuine believer.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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- the 1 Corinthians Brother is handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (disease or wasting away)
- in order to produce REPENTANCE (godly sorrow), so that...
- his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.

And this repentance came as this brother did in fact REPENT as per 2 Corinthians. And this brother was turned from his evil way.

If this brother DID NOT repent, and the destruction of the flesh did not have its desired effect, he would have been lost totally (no salvation).
This makes sense.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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so, in other words, you do not want to talk about Romans 1.

yep, hiding is a good way to describe what you do. only point out verses that you can bend to support your backdoor sinless perfectionism , hide from the rest.
Lol. Which verse matey. Or should I just interpret it all for you??
 
Nov 16, 2019
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- the 1 Corinthians Brother is handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (disease or wasting away)
- in order to produce REPENTANCE (godly sorrow), so that...
- his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.

And this repentance came as this brother did in fact REPENT as per 2 Corinthians. And this brother was turned from his evil way.

If this brother DID NOT repent, and the destruction of the flesh did not have its desired effect, he would have been lost totally (no salvation).
It's really that simple. But osas has to make it not really mean what it says to preserve their predetermined doctrine.
This kind of garbage has ruined Christianity.
Christianity has no credibility in the eyes of the world now because of this kind of twisting and perverting of the scriptures.
We used to be hated because of the call to repentance in our faith.
But now we're hated because we're so fractured by dissent that it has no credibility.
But I know this is all part of the great falling away.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Hazelelponi

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2019
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How did Zacchaeus place his full trust on the Lord, he was only willing to do the things that the rish young ruler was not able to do. Remember the rich young ruler who came to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit the kingdom of God? Jesus told him to keep the commandments which he confirmed that he does, so Jesus asked him to sell all he had and share with the poor which he couldn't.

So Zacchaeus did share with the poor and that's what it means faith in Jesus, if you don't, then you have denied the faith just as Paul says:

1 Tim 5:7Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
As you know, in ancient Israel wealth was specifically believed to be a blessing God bestowed on people due to their righteousness.

In Luke and Matthew Jesus turned this idea on its head with the rich young ruler from His very first sentence "No one is good save God alone" - not even a Man of God.

He went on to prove it, which left those within hearing asking, if this (think, righteous man so blessed by God) can be denied eternal life, how can anyone be saved? (let alone me!)

Jesus answer was to answer what is impossible for man is possible for God. meaninging, salvation is of the Lord, not something we are able to qualify for. We have all fallen short of the Glory of God.

Now with the tax collector, Jesus has another apple cart to overturn, another belief set that needs corrected. And that is the unclean sinner.

If you recall in Luke 10 one of the lead ups to the rich young man/ruler was the Pharisee and the tax collector praying, the Pharisee lifted his head to God and thanked Him for making the Pharisee so righteous, unlike the tax collector over there. And the tax collector humbled himself before God and threw himself on the Mercy of God praying God, have mercy on me, a sinner...

Jesus lauded the tax collector for humbling himself and recognizing his condition before God and relying on God for mercy. Something from the least to the greatest need to do.

So here with Zacchaeus whose another tax collector we see a similar situation as in Luke. We've got this tax collector, a sinner in the eyes of all, climbing the tree in hopes of seeing, and perchance speaking to Jesus, and all around shocked when Jesus decided to go to that man's house. (contact with such a person according to the Pharisees not done because he was ritually unclean) so there was shock and awe over such a societal taboo being upset.

So the man offers that he gives half of his earnings to the Temple, and Jesus declares him a son of Abraham (not one who is ritually unclean). Why? he was still a traitor, in the eyes of the Jews, as he worked for the Romans - but being a son of Abraham is more than everything they assumed it to be, and less than they assumed at the same time.

It requires a lot of faith when all your countrymen call you unclean, when no one will eat with you, speak to you, to give half of all you have to a God everyone's spent your adult life telling you hate you. That's faith, that's a man whose heard something new, and that something, even though he didn't hear it yet with his own ears has acted in faith upon those words.

That man had some serious faith. More than I for real - and Jesus stayed with him because here was a man who had the faith of Abraham.

I was far mod like Jacob, willing to wrestle until I got the satisfaction of understanding, but this guy? This guy took it on faith and ran with it.. that's a greater faith I think, and so Jesus blessed him for it, and called it the faith of Abraham. It should bring a tear to everyone's eye, it does mine, that faith like that exists. It's joyful to see, we should all be more like that guy.

But it's not the act per se we need to look at, but the faith which caused him to do it. That is what was blessed and acknowledged.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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113

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
It's really that simple. But osas has to make it not really mean what it says to preserve their predetermined doctrine.
This kind of garbage has ruined Christianity.
Christianity has no credibility in the eyes of the world now because of this kind of twisting and perverting of the scriptures.
We used to be hated because of the call to repentance in our faith.
But now we're hated because we're so fractured by dissent that it has no credibility.
But I know this is all part of the great falling away.
Those who reject the truth (for they had not a love of the truth) will be caught in this:

Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

It will catch people by surprise. And it will already be too late.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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As you know, in ancient Israel wealth was specifically believed to be a blessing God bestowed on people due to their righteousness.

In Luke and Matthew Jesus turned this idea on its head with the rich young ruler from His very first sentence "No one is good save God alone" - not even a Man of God.

He went on to prove it, which left those within hearing asking, if this (think, righteous man so blessed by God) can be denied eternal life, how can anyone be saved? (let alone me!)

Jesus answer was to answer what is impossible for man is possible for God. meaninging, salvation is of the Lord, not something we are able to qualify for. We have all fallen short of the Glory of God.

Now with the tax collector, Jesus has another apple cart to overturn, another belief set that needs corrected. And that is the unclean sinner.

If you recall in Luke 10 one of the lead ups to the rich young man/ruler was the Pharisee and the tax collector praying, the Pharisee lifted his head to God and thanked Him for making the Pharisee so righteous, unlike the tax collector over there. And the tax collector humbled himself before God and threw himself on the Mercy of God praying God, have mercy on me, a sinner...

Jesus lauded the tax collector for humbling himself and recognizing his condition before God and relying on God for mercy. Something from the least to the greatest need to do.

So here with Zacchaeus whose another tax collector we see a similar situation as in Luke. We've got this tax collector, a sinner in the eyes of all, climbing the tree in hopes of seeing, and perchance speaking to Jesus, and all around shocked when Jesus decided to go to that man's house. (contact with such a person according to the Pharisees not done because he was ritually unclean) so there was shock and awe over such a societal taboo being upset.

So the man offers that he gives half of his earnings to the Temple, and Jesus declares him a son of Abraham (not one who is ritually unclean). Why? he was still a traitor, in the eyes of the Jews, as he worked for the Romans - but being a son of Abraham is more than everything they assumed it to be, and less than they assumed at the same time.

It requires a lot of faith when all your countrymen call you unclean, when no one will eat with you, speak to you, to give half of all you have to a God everyone's spent your adult life telling you hate you. That's faith, that's a man whose heard something new, and that something, even though he didn't hear it yet with his own ears has acted in faith upon those words.

That man had some serious faith. More than I for real - and Jesus stayed with him because here was a man who had the faith of Abraham.

I was far mod like Jacob, willing to wrestle until I got the satisfaction of understanding, but this guy? This guy took it on faith and ran with it.. that's a greater faith I think, and so Jesus blessed him for it, and called it the faith of Abraham. It should bring a tear to everyone's eye, it does mine, that faith like that exists. It's joyful to see, we should all be more like that guy.

But it's not the act per se we need to look at, but the faith which caused him to do it. That is what was blessed and acknowledged.
And I'm sorry, I can rewrite all that later if necessary, I'm still blurry eyed.
No need, i don't believe all that. The tax collector was deed the good works of love and that's the reason salvation came to his household- this is what we call faith.

The opposite or denying faith is what Paul says here:

1 Tim 5:7Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You just DON'T GET IT and those who drew back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) were never sanctified "set apart" as genuine believers (those who believed to the saving of the soul) but were "set apart" as professing believers/active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of genuine believers. Feel free to read post #19 - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
They refuse to see context. It’s their fatal flaw
 

Hazelelponi

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2019
609
397
63
USA
No need, i don't believe all that. The tax collector was deed the good works of love and that's the reason salvation came to his household- this is what we call faith.

The opposite or denying faith is what Paul says here:

1 Tim 5:7Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

If all you see in the Bible is work #1, work #2, work #3 (so on and so forth) = salvation, and miss the situational ethics at play, you miss the moral of each occasion to be learned by us.

Do you believe that being a son of Abraham in the Old Testament means they needed to offer all their favored and promised sons to be following the faith of Abraham?

Or do you see the faith behind it and teach that faith?

Work #1, work #2, work #3, misses the heart entirely, and leaves you with nothing more than a to-do list. And that to-do list won't ever qualify anyone for salvation. Only true faith will, which is a gift from God.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
If all you see in the Bible is work #1, work #2, work #3 (so on and so forth) = salvation, and miss the situational ethics at play, you miss the moral of each occasion to be learned by us.

Do you believe that being a son of Abraham in the Old Testament means they needed to offer all their favored and promised sons to be following the faith of Abraham?

Or do you see the faith behind it and teach that faith?

Work #1, work #2, work #3, misses the heart entirely, and leaves you with nothing more than a to-do list. And that to-do list won't ever qualify anyone for salvation. Only true faith will, which is a gift from God.
If judgement is about what a man has done and not what they think, then you can not escape works.

Abraham descendants have been explained in Rom 9.
 

Hazelelponi

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2019
609
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If judgement is about what a man has done and not what they think, then you can not escape works.

Abraham descendants have been explained in Rom 9.

Then by your standards the tax collector (Zacchaeus) could not have been deemed a true son of Abraham by Jesus because like the rich young ruler he didn't sell everything and give to the poor. ..

If you don't seek the moral Jesus was teaching according to the mindset and situation that was occuring, then you get a conflict. Do rich people need to give everything? Or is half enough? Why did Jesus demand one thing, while approving something lessor?

In order to see the truth and not a multitude of contradictions, you have to look past the work itself and look into the heart of each situation.

What's the mina your master gave you? And what are you doing with it?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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What about this:

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,f only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
You got a good point.I know the bible doesn't suppose to contradict Itself.

1 John 3:1-3
King James Version

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
+++
If I agree with you I would be agreeing that the bible contradicts Itsel.GOD IS not the author of confusion.😐
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I thing he was exposed thoroughly in works thread. Him opening all these threads does not help him.
For sure .... he is actually exposing his false beliefs even more..... like Jesus did not pay for all sins of the believer.
Quite wrong.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
I thing he was exposed thoroughly in works thread. Him opening all these threads does not help him.
Opening up all these threads makes for a more interesting CC forum than the endless whining carrying on in your Not by Works thread, which has 3 years of works and no resolution or edification.