Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

[Noose]

Paul does not go there, so I will not speculate. That statement would make more sense if you were talking about prophesying, but again, Paul does not state that. Of knowledge, we know that a characteristic of knowledge that it is in part, but when the perfect comes, it will be complete.

Paul goes there. He says only these three remain; love, faith and hope which means everything else is gone.
And i have shown you a couple of times now, that love is the full knowledge of God that all gifts were working towards.

 

[presidente]

The gift of knowledge like all the other gifts, was meant to bring about the full knowledge of God. Means that the end game was to know God. Once there is this unity in faith through love, then there's no need for those with that knowledge to come and tell me about God because now i know God, there's no need for me to prophesy to them because they have also come to the unity of faith and now they also know God.

Paul told the Galatians they knew God. But he also asked them whether ed who worked miracles among them did so by the works of the law or the hearing of faith. And he went on to do many miracles.

 

[Dave-L]

I already pointed out scriptures that disprove your viewpoint, since John's statement about baptism with the Holy Spirit was not only directed to the groups in the two outpourings and your conclusions contradict the scripture from Joel that Peter quoted on Pentecost. Acts 10 shows that imparting the Spirit was not limited to the laying on of the apostles hands. Ananias and Saul of Tarsus shows this also, since Ananias was not one of the 12, and he came that Paul might be healed and receive the Holy Ghost. Then later Saul/Paul was laying hands on people and the Spirit came upon them, even though the twelve added nothing to him. People could receive gifts of the Spirit without his being around.

If your knowledge is perfect and Paul's was incomplete, you would understand Paul's doctrine more fully than Paul did. Can you honestly say that you have never read Paul's writings at one time, come back to them later and gained some new insight that Paul clearly had when he wrote the epistle? Would you think Paul's knowledge of the mystery of Christ in about 54 AD was so little in comparison with yours, that it was like a child's understanding and yours was like an adult's? Your interpretation would put you in a superior position to the apostle Paul.

Here's how you disprove me. Find an example where the Baptism came in another outpouring besides the two. Or prove where anyone received the Baptism apart from an apostle's hands.

 

[presidente]

Here's how you disprove me. Find an example where the Baptism came in another outpouring besides the two. Or prove where anyone received the Baptism apart from an apostle's hands.

The Bible says the Wind bloweth where it listeth. If you want to presume to tell the Spirit of God what He cannot do, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you have that authority.

The way I have disproven your assertions is good enough already. The Lord said that in the last days, He would pour of His Spirit upon all flesh. The 12 disciples and the household of Cornelius were not the only ones (if most of them were there at all) to whom John spake when he said that He that cometh after Him would 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire.'

If you believe there were only two outpourings, then how did the Corinthians and whoever in the Holy Spirit the Spirit gifted with tongues speak in 'divers tongues' speak in tongues? Do you believe Christians do not need an outpouring of the Spirit to speak in tongues, prophecy, heal, etc? You should take the whole Bible into account.

Your argument reminds me of a story a man told about his first debate with Muslims. The man's opponent asked him to show a verse with the words "Jesus is God." The Christian starts to say, "There is not a verse that has those words, Jesus is God..." The Muslim cuts him off and says, "He said there is no verse that says Jesus is God." The Muslim crowd goes wild and starts to cheer. The other debater made up his own rules to the debate. Why don't you show me a verse that mentions your name and says that you were born? Can you prove from the Bible that you exist? I can make up my own rules like you are doing, too, you know.

 

[Dave-L]

The Bible says the Wind bloweth where it listeth. If you want to presume to tell the Spirit of God what He cannot do, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you have that authority.

The Lord said that in the last days, He would pour of His Spirit upon all flesh. The 12 disciples and the household of Cornelius were not the only ones (if most of them were there at all) to whom John spake when he said that He that cometh after Him would 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire.'

Why don't you show me a verse that mentions your name and says that you were born? Can you prove from the Bible that you exist? I can make up my own rules like you are doing, too, you know.

This means nothing about the Baptism. Possibly about the New Birth.

 

[presidente]

This means nothing about the Baptism. Possibly about the New Birth.

Jesus referred to John and told the disciples they would be baptized with water not many days hence, before what you call an 'outpouring.' Peter referred to John's prophecy also when he described what happened in Cornelius' house.

'Pour out' shows up in the Joel prophecy which is clearly for more than those two events since it says 'all flesh.'

I edited that last message while you were replying if you would like to have a look at it.

Can you take me up on my challenge and prove to me that you exist by showing me chapter and verse where you exist? That's the same sort of game you are playing.

 

[Dave-L]

Jesus referred to John and told the disciples they would be baptized with water not many days hence, before what you call an 'outpouring.' Peter referred to John's prophecy also when he described what happened in Cornelius' house.

'Pour out' shows up in the Joel prophecy which is clearly for more than those two events since it says 'all flesh.'

I edited that last message while you were replying if you would like to have a look at it.

Can you take me up on my challenge and prove to me that you exist by showing me chapter and verse where you exist? That's the same sort of game you are playing.

You are not sticking to scripture.

 

[Jackson123]

Only these three remain; love, faith, hope, the greatest of these is LOVE.
If only these three remain, where are the gifts?

Love doesn't replace, it renders them useless because with love, we have come to maturity and have now fully known God.

Yep, remain mean still there

So love not disappear yet, and never

Faith not fisapoears yet, we still need faith when we not in heaven yet.

And corinthians relate faith also with miracle

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

These verse say If I have all faith so as to remove the mountains

Dome time faith produce miracle

Did Paul say we do not need faith anymore?

No

Did the gift of faith cease and No more need because Canon?

No.

Paul say love is the greatest,

Say you have faith to move mountain, but you hate God and fellow man, what is that for?

You have faith to heal people but for money and fame, that is Nothing in God eyes

What is faith

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

1. Hope for

We hope for eternal live in heaven, this hope Will cease when we are in heaven

2. Evidence thing that are not seen.

We do not seen heaven yet. But we believe

This Will cease when we there, because as soon as we there we see it

But we still need love in heaven forever

I believe the word perfect in this topic mean heaven.

 

[presidente]

You are not sticking to scripture.

Sure I am. You are insisting scripture jump through your own rules to say things the way you want before you accept what it says. Peter, quoting Joel, spoke of an outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh, but you want to limit it to two occasions unless someone points to other occasions besides two specifically mentioned in scripture. Of course, the Spirit fell again in Acts 8 and 19, but the terminology is a bit different.

 

[Noose]

Paul told the Galatians they knew God. But he also asked them whether ed who worked miracles among them did so by the works of the law or the hearing of faith. And he went on to do many miracles.

Correct, the Galatians were still spiritual children but towards the end of his ministry he could not heal Timothy's stomach ailment and could not escape prison himself like he did before. Why would Paul recommend a little wine instead of prayer to heal or manage a stomach ailment?

 

[Noose]

Yep, remain mean still there

So love not disappear yet, and never

Faith not fisapoears yet, we still need faith when we not in heaven yet.

And corinthians relate faith also with miracle

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

These verse say If I have all faith so as to remove the mountains

Dome time faith produce miracle

Did Paul say we do not need faith anymore?

No

Did the gift of faith cease and No more need because Canon?

No.

Paul say love is the greatest,

Say you have faith to move mountain, but you hate God and fellow man, what is that for?

You have faith to heal people but for money and fame, that is Nothing in God eyes

What is faith

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

1. Hope for

We hope for eternal live in heaven, this hope Will cease when we are in heaven

2. Evidence thing that are not seen.

We do not seen heaven yet. But we believe

This Will cease when we there, because as soon as we there we see it

But we still need love in heaven forever

I believe the word perfect in this topic mean heaven.

Yes, you are right.

 

[presidente]

Correct, the Galatians were still spiritual children but towards the end of his ministry he could not heal Timothy's stomach ailment and could not escape prison himself like he did before. Why would Paul recommend a little wine instead of prayer to heal or manage a stomach ailment?

Paul had an illness early on in his ministry, some time around Acts 14 probably, certainly before the end of Acts 16, while he was an active miracle worker. It caused him to spend time with the Galatians, and they would have plucked out their eyes and given them to him. So he probably had an eye ailment.

But he was an active miracle worker. Does the fact that Paul got sick mean that Paul and Barrnabas weren't really working miracles? No.

Do you think when Paul went around doing miracles that he told everyone just to eat french fries covered in hot sauce and chocolate all the time and nothing else, since he could just lay hands on them? Advice about health and self-care is not argument against gifts of the Spirit being active.

 

[Noose]

Paul had an illness early on in his ministry, some time around Acts 14 probably, certainly before the end of Acts 16, while he was an active miracle worker. It caused him to spend time with the Galatians, and they would have plucked out their eyes and given them to him. So he probably had an eye ailment.

But he was an active miracle worker. Does the fact that Paul got sick mean that Paul and Barrnabas weren't really working miracles? No.

Do you think when Paul went around doing miracles that he told everyone just to eat french fries covered in hot sauce and chocolate all the time and nothing else, since he could just lay hands on them? Advice about health and self-care is not argument against gifts of the Spirit being active.

Being a miracle worker doesn't demand healing one's self. Gifts were meant for others not self; prophesy/evangelism/speaking in tongues e.t.c were all meant for others and never self. So it is understandable if Paul was sick but his friend Timothy who specifically came to him- he couldn't heal but give advice why? because these gifts are childishness (1 Cor 13), yet at that point they had matured and nothing could separate from the love God even disease and death.

How many times did Paul miraculously escape prison or imminent death but could not after he had finished his ministry? not that he did not know, he himself says he is approaching his end.

 

[Dave-L]

Sure I am. You are insisting scripture jump through your own rules to say things the way you want before you accept what it says. Peter, quoting Joel, spoke of an outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh, but you want to limit it to two occasions unless someone points to other occasions besides two specifically mentioned in scripture. Of course, the Spirit fell again in Acts 8 and 19, but the terminology is a bit different.

Just show another way the Baptism of the Holy Spirit came from scripture and prove you are right.

 

[Dave-L]

Yep, remain mean still there

So love not disappear yet, and never

Faith not fisapoears yet, we still need faith when we not in heaven yet.

And corinthians relate faith also with miracle

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

These verse say If I have all faith so as to remove the mountains

Dome time faith produce miracle

Did Paul say we do not need faith anymore?

No

Did the gift of faith cease and No more need because Canon?

No.

Paul say love is the greatest,

Say you have faith to move mountain, but you hate God and fellow man, what is that for?

You have faith to heal people but for money and fame, that is Nothing in God eyes

What is faith

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

1. Hope for

We hope for eternal live in heaven, this hope Will cease when we are in heaven

2. Evidence thing that are not seen.

We do not seen heaven yet. But we believe

This Will cease when we there, because as soon as we there we see it

But we still need love in heaven forever

I believe the word perfect in this topic mean heaven.

The gifts ended with the apostles' deaths. Scripture replaced them.

 

[notuptome]

Paul told the Galatians they knew God. But he also asked them whether ed who worked miracles among them did so by the works of the law or the hearing of faith. And he went on to do many miracles.

You have failed to demonstrate that the passage in Galatians specifies tongues, knowledge and prophesy.

God performed the miracles not Paul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

See my other post on this topic to Dave-L. That verse does not say that the Bible is all that is given that the man of God may be complete. Don't mix up the word order when you read.

Would you say that you don't need water baptism because you have the Bible?
Would you say that you don't need faith because you have the Bible?
Would you say that you don't need to abstain from fornication because you have the Bible?
Would you say that you don't need grace because you have the Bible?
Would you say that you don't need the gifts of the Spirit operating through other believers because you have the Bible?

The Bible teaches us that we need to be baptized, to have faith, to abstain from fornication, that we need the grace of God, and that one member of our body does not say to another member, "I have no need of thee.'

The Holy Spirit only operates through the word of God. The Holy Spirit does not freelance and write His own script as He goes.

I can tell that you cannot respond to the scriptures because you are resorting to over stating the gifts and the nature of God. The Holy Spirit never contradicts the word of God nor does the Holy Spirit lead a man to transgress the word of God. You know that to be true. You also know that the bible is how God ministers to saints and sinners alike. The Holy Spirit working through the word of God producing the effect we see in John 16:8-11.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Here's how you disprove me. Find an example where the Baptism came in another outpouring besides the two. Or prove where anyone received the Baptism apart from an apostle's hands.

The laying on of hands is no different than folding hands in prayer. Simply a request that God's will be done, in hope through the power of the gospel of faith (the unseen) faith to faith . (No corrupted human touch) . God will not share his glory with corruption. He, I would offer makes sure by giving us a old testament ceremonial law to protect the integrity of His word. I would think not to mix with the witness of men. But rather mix with faith. .He is not worshiped by human hands or does he live in the things the eyes see. He has no needs but satisfies all.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

In respect to the above verse. . as the many such things mankind does to making sola scriptura without effect. I believe can be answered by the book of John . This is when in the same way Mathew 16 Peter again was influenced . "And Jesus said to Peter get behind me Satan" The Holy Spirit rebuked the father of lies he left. Peter was forgiven of blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus .As to the how many again it is described at the end of the book of John .Peter again starts a oral tradition of men as a lie and say the flesh of John will never die. Jesus the Christ again rebuked the lying spirits and then described just how many books could be written as that which does make the word of God of none effect through the fleshly tradition as the witness of men . We would need a bigger world .

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21: 23-25

One warning would seem to be enough.

God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form. That kind of idea is shown of those who turn things upside down and therefore take away the understanding of God not seen .The understanding of the faith that works in us not of us.. In the end of the matter making the word of God to no effect through the oral traditions of men.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I would offer the witness of God given in Acts 14. Beginning with the first work as a labor of God's love the preaching of the gospel .Faith (unseen) to the same unseen understanding.

Those who attributed the unseen work of the gospel to the corrupted hands of the apostles . . Made them into "gods in the likeness of men" part of the legion .to demonstrate they have "no faith" that could please God. The apostles tore their clothing to reveal the blasphemy against the Son of God is not forgivable. We must be careful how we hear.

And there they preached the gospel.And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: (prohecy) who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, (prohecy) Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,Acts 14:7-14

 

[Dave-L]

The laying on of hands is no different than folding hands in prayer. Simply a request that God's will be done, in hope through the power of the gospel of faith (the unseen) faith to faith . (No corrupted human touch) . God will not share his glory with corruption. He, I would offer makes sure by giving us a old testament ceremonial law to protect the integrity of His word. I would think not to mix with the witness of men. But rather mix with faith. .He is not worshiped by human hands or does he live in the things the eyes see. He has no needs but satisfies all.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

In respect to the above verse. . as the many such things mankind does to making sola scriptura without effect. I believe can be answered by the book of John . This is when in the same way Mathew 16 Peter again was influenced . "And Jesus said to Peter get behind me Satan" The Holy Spirit rebuked the father of lies he left. Peter was forgiven of blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus .As to the how many again it is described at the end of the book of John .Peter again starts a oral tradition of men as a lie and say the flesh of John will never die. Jesus the Christ again rebuked the lying spirits and then described just how many books could be written as that which does make the word of God of none effect through the fleshly tradition as the witness of men . We would need a bigger world .

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21: 23-25

One warning would seem to be enough.

God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form. That kind of idea is shown of those who turn things upside down and therefore take away the understanding of God not seen .The understanding of the faith that works in us not of us.. In the end of the matter making the word of God to no effect through the oral traditions of men.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I would offer the witness of God given in Acts 14. Beginning with the first work as a labor of God's love the preaching of the gospel .Faith (unseen) to the same unseen understanding.

Those who attributed the unseen work of the gospel to the corrupted hands of the apostles . . Made them into "gods in the likeness of men" part of the legion .to demonstrate they have "no faith" that could please God. The apostles tore their clothing to reveal the blasphemy against the Son of God is not forgivable. We must be careful how we hear.

And there they preached the gospel.And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: (prohecy) who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, (prohecy) Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,Acts 14:7-14

You can only prove I'm wrong after finding an acception to my claim.

 

[garee]

You can only prove I'm wrong after finding an acception to my claim.

An acception to what claim ? The witness of man?

I think scripture as it is written proves scripture( faith to faith) as it is written. It was mans witness as the wisdom of the world that made the apostles gods in the likeness of men. Are the apostles gods as part of the legion? Is God served by corrupted human hands .

The word apostle with no other meaning added is "sent one" .Not authoritive ones or powerful ones. We are not to add new meaning to a word it can change the intent of the comandments .