Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today
- Thread starter Dave-L
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The revealing of Jesus Christ that I Corinthians deal His parousia described in chapter 15 when He deals with the resurrection.
They that are His will be made alive 'at His coming.' This word translation 'revelation' is used for the second coming. Compare to II Thes. 1:7. The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven.
Your interpretation lacks the support of 'long thoughts' and themes running throughout the epistle. I posted an OP on this topic, the OP you referred to that at least hinted at this concept or dealt with it lightly.
Here in these verses at the opening of the book, Paul deals with themes that he will explore in detail later in the book. Let's take a look.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
I Corinthians 1
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
He discusses enrichment in utterance and knowledge when he addresses spiritual gifts in chapter 12-14. He addresses the spiritual gifts in those chapters as well. Here, in verse 7, he says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Paul expands on this in chapter 15 when he refers to the events that will transpire at the Lord's 'revealing' referred to in this verse and also in II Thes. 1:7. He describes the resurrection and speaks of 'they that are His at His coming.'
Verse 8 refers to the 'end.' Look that word up in I Corinthians 15:24, where, after discussing the resurrection, he says 'then cometh the end.' That is when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God.
I Corinthians 13 into the theme Paul lays out here in chapter 1 and ties into chapter 15. Paul experiences the perfect at the resurrection. We see this also in Philippians 3.
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Paul describes his own state at the coming of the perfect in I Corinthians 13. When he wrote I Corinthians, he thought, spoke, and understood as a child. But after the perfect comes he will know fully. 'That which is in part' shall be done away. Paul knew in part, he said. But knowledge will not be done away with. In-part-ness will be done away with. Paul's partial knowledge will be replaced with comlete knowledge when the perfect comes.
In Philippians 3, above, Paul describes this as himself also being made perfect-- something that had not happen yet. But he will experience it at the resurrection of the dead. I Corinthians 13 gives us more details about how this will effect him and us.
We should interpret the passage consistent with.
1. The themes in the book.
2. The themes in Paul's writings.
And not just plug in some concept like 'the completed canon' which has no support from the text, merely because it fits with ones preconcieved ideas.
On the contrary.
I posted Post Nr 83
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...t-is-not-for-today.189832/page-5#post-4143619
to which you responded with OPINION (fluff, with no scriptural support for your opinion in Post nr 84)
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...t-is-not-for-today.189832/page-5#post-4143621
So, Dave-L, give scriptural support for your assertion on post 84. And it must say what you say. It is very specific the assertion you made, so the scripture must be able to conclusively support the STOPPAGE of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We await, with baited breath.....
In fact @Dave-L , you were being disingenuous, and have still not answered me on the earlier post. Where did the scriptures say raising the dead? My Mark 16 scripture did not refer to it.
Yes, there are deceivers out there who are filled in their own spirit but not the Spirit of God. But if we draw nigh to God, seek him, and let his Holy Spirit fill us, which comes by studying the word, prayer , and obedience to him, then we will not be deceived.
I do agree with what you said in one of your posts that being filled with the Holy Spirit is not a one time thing.
You get what you put in. There have been times in my life that I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and then other times I have been running almost on empty. When I let myself get consumed with the cares of the world and slack up on seeking God then my cup runs low. If I commit myself to the Lord and walk in his Spirit then he fills me and my cup is full and sometimes so full that it runs over.
@Dave-L
1 Timothy 4
14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
Paul, written to Timothy. Referring to the eldership in Timothy's church.
@Dave-L : When the Apostle John died (as per your assertion) was Baptism in the HS disappear for all of these elders referred to above?
You doctrine is on shaky ground.
1 Timothy 4
14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
Paul, written to Timothy. Referring to the eldership in Timothy's church.
@Dave-L : When the Apostle John died (as per your assertion) was Baptism in the HS disappear for all of these elders referred to above?
You doctrine is on shaky ground.
You are close but God is expects us to seek His blessing. We do not merit any of His blessings. We are blessed because of grace not because of merit.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If prophesy has ended, how is Revelation 11:3 possible?
And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
We prophesy every time we quote scripture. It is prophecy.
“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 19:10 (KJV 1900)
Besides, how do you know your take on that passages is what it means?
“This is why I remind you to keep using the gift God gave you when I laid my hands on you. Now let it grow, as a small flame grows into a fire.” 2 Timothy 1:6 (NCV)
You could start with the problem with your hermeneutical approach. There are various scriptures that show God doing things in different ways. You pick one way that scripture shows God doing something and insist that this is the only way He works.
There are two problems with this. One is, you try to bind God to one example, as if God is supposed to work according to one specific example of scripture where the text does not bind him. The second problem is other scripture contradicts your rules. You dismiss scriptures that contradict your rules as exceptions.
The specific case I am talking about is this. In one situation, Simon of Samaria sees that the people there received the Spirit by the laying on of hands of apostles. You assume from this that the only way one receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost is through the laying on of the apostles hands, even though they specific examples that mention baptism with the Holy Ghost do not involve the laying on of the apostles hands-- Acts 2 and 10. Ananias went to Paul that he might receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost, and Ananias was not one of the twelve. (Nor was this Ananias Saphira's husband.)
Paul laid hands on people and the Spirit fell on them, though he did not receive this ability through the laying on of hands of the apostles.
When Simon of Samaria saw that the Spirit was recieved through the laying on of hands, he offered money to pay the ability that whoever he laid his hands on might receive the Holy Ghost. Peter told him he had no part in it because his heart was not right before God. He did not say because it was the exclusive domain of the apostles. The implication that we might draw is that others whose hearts were right before God might partake of such a ministry.
We see prophets and teachers laying hands on Barnabas and Saul to set them apart for ministry after the Spirit spoke. The Spirit spoke in another case. Timothy received a gift through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.
So we see evidence for connecting the 'laying on of hands' and either receiving the Spirit or receiving gifts in the ministries of these types of individuals:
- The apostles.
- A disciple (Ananias)
- Prophets and teachers
- Elders
In the latter case, the spiritual gift was received 'through prophecy.' In the case of prophets and teachers, the Spirit also spoke.
Acts 2 and 10 show examples of individuals receiving the baptism with the Spirit--the events about which that terminology is used-- in cases where it was extremely likely there was no laying on of hands of the apostles.
Let's discuss this hermeneutical method of yours and all the scriptures that contradict your conclusion.
Paul says after the Revelation, Christ will also confirm us to the end. So it's not the end of the world when tongues cease.
Besides, today's tongues are nothing like the originals.
The way I chop through all of your reasoning is with one simple challenge. Show (1) other way the gifts (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) came apart from an apostle's hands. Or through the two outpourings.
Look at the quote of the message you are referring to. I have disproven your thesis. You just refuse to address it and pretend like nothing happened-- that's the way you are treating the scriptures that disprove your argument.
The two outpourings did not involve the laying on of the apostles hands, as far as we are told, which undercuts your argument. Saul received the Spirit without the laying on of the apostles hands.
Simon could not have part in the ministry of those on whom he laid his hands receiving the Spirit because his heart was not right before God, according to Peter.
The burden of proof is on you to show that the Spirit can only be received through the two outpourings or the laying on of hands of the apostles. The counter-examples I gave disproved your theory, however.
So what if Paul laid hands on Timothy. That's not the point you are trying to assert. The Elders (others and plural) laid hands on Timothy. Which sinks your assertions.
Have you ever wondered why the entire church has gone for millennia without the Baptism and gifts. When Jesus says the gates of hell will not prevail against us? Why all of the sudden WM Seymour comes up with it in the early 1900s? Doesn't this make you suspicious? Have you ever studied American Pentecostalism's history? You should do this.