Apostasy 101

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J

Judges1318

Banned
#921
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
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#921
Grandpa said:
They've walked away from the continuing power of Christ in order to establish their own works.
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How is that not falling away from faith?
How do you walk away from the continuing power of Christ if not by no longer believing and trusting in that power?

Grandpa said:
A TRULY saved person will recognize instantly the error of this way.

Otherwise, there would be no point in Paul instructing them.
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The Galatians were truly saved. Paul said so. Yet they did not recognize the error of their way. And Paul made it a point to instruct them.

Grandpa said:
You couldn't honestly understand what the Scripture says as a whole. And so you twist it continually to try and make scripture go against God and faith in Christ.
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At least give me a chance to defend myself against your accusation.
Post one of these scriptures that I twist to make it go against God and faith in Christ.
Chances are you'll pick one that osas says doesn't really mean what it says and I'll make sure to point that out.

Grandpa said:
You have to?
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Does God do your trusting for you?
Of do you do it, with God's help and encouragement?

Grandpa said:
Salvation is NOT kept and secured by an act of YOUR will. Salvation is kept and secured by an Act of Gods Will.

Huge, giant difference.

Romans 9:16-21
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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I agree. Man's will has no power to save.
Salvation happens because God has mercy on you.
The power of salvation is in God's grace and mercy.
The power is not in the asking, or the wanting, or the desire.
The power of salvation is in the gospel of God's grace itself.

"...the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes..." - Romans 1:16
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#922
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#922
Judges1318 said:
Why are the Galatians just poor misguided, saved believers in Christ, but the law keepers in this forum who believe in Christ get roasted mercilessly as unsaved, evil works salvationists?
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The Galatians and legalists who believe in Christ are in the EXACT SAME boat.

They need the same guidance in the same way.

And if they don't accept guidance then where does that lead? Farther from Christ.
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#923
Dec 9, 2011
14,131
1,803
113
#923
Judges1318 said:
The sin that stems from, or leads to a denial of Christ in unbelief is what will cause a person to be in danger of losing their salvation.
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believing and unbelieving Is not something a person can do like a person exercising everyday and then deciding not to work out.

If a person believes,how do they decide not to believe anymore and really be able to truly unbeliever,that's not possible.

If you know that your favorite color Is red how do you decide that now my favorite color Is blue and be In truth to what you really feel.

John 6:44
King James Version

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
+++
John 4:24
King James Version


24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#924
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
#924
seed_time_harvest said:
believing and unbelieving Is not something a person can do like a person exercising everyday and then deciding not to work out.

If a person believes,how do they decide not to believe anymore and really be able to truly unbeliever,that's not possible.

If you know that your favorite color Is red how do you decide that now my favorite color Is blue and be In truth to what you really feel.

John 6:44
King James Version

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
+++
John 4:24
King James Version


24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Click to expand...
In the beginning someone (a person) is not a believer in Christ, but one day is presented with the Gospel. That person changes his/her mind and believes in Christ. Then comes along a false prophet (yes, the ones the bible warns about). This person gives heed to these new doctrines as presented by the false prophet/teacher. Their minds are then changed as old beliefs are replaced by new. Its as simple as that. That is WHY these warnings exist in scripture.
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#925
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
113
#925
Chris1975 said:
In the beginning someone (a person) is not a believer in Christ, but one day is presented with the Gospel. That person changes his/her mind and believes in Christ. Then comes along a false prophet (yes, the ones the bible warns about). This person gives heed to these new doctrines as presented by the false prophet/teacher. Their minds are then changed as old beliefs are replaced by new. Its as simple as that. That is WHY these warnings exist in scripture.
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dont worry Jesus will not lose even one of His sheep but raise them up at the last day. (not before the last day as some teach)
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#926
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
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#926
HEB 10:26-27.
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of The Truth, there remains no more Sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#927
Dec 9, 2011
14,131
1,803
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#927
Chris1975 said:
In the beginning someone (a person) is not a believer in Christ, but one day is presented with the Gospel. That person changes his/her mind and believes in Christ. Then comes along a false prophet (yes, the ones the bible warns about). This person gives heed to these new doctrines as presented by the false prophet/teacher. Their minds are then changed as old beliefs are replaced by new. Its as simple as that. That is WHY these warnings exist in scripture.
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But If they are GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works they would now have a DESIRE to present their bodies a living sacrifice and renew their minds to the new creation they have become and also remember GOD looks at the heart/the persons motives/the persons Intentions so then If someone came along preaching bad doctrine and the person fell for It not Intending to go against GOD ,then GOD Is not going to hold that against that person.

Anyway It the Spirit that was created new and bad doctrine would cause a person to error In progressive sanctification not salVation.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#928
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
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#928
seed_time_harvest said:
But If they are GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works they would now have a DESIRE to present their bodies a living sacrifice and renew their minds to the new creation they have become and also remember GOD looks at the heart/the persons motives/the persons Intentions so then If someone came along preaching bad doctrine and the person fell for It not Intending to go against GOD ,then GOD Is not going to hold that against that person.

Anyway It the Spirit that was created new and bad doctrine would cause a person to error In progressive sanctification not salVation.
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People are not automatons. If you started well but are led away by false doctrines there are grave consequences. God doesn't obey FOR you. You still choose to obey. The sheer weight of scripture confirms this. Even the faith of some has been overthrown.
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#929
Dec 9, 2011
14,131
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#929
Chris1975 said:
People are not automatons. If you started well but are led away by false doctrines there are grave consequences. God doesn't obey FOR you. You still choose to obey. The sheer weight of scripture confirms this. Even the faith of some has been overthrown.
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Yes the consequences are to the persons body called continued sanctification or living holy trying to match your mind/body to the new creation you have become but the persons spirit was made perfect.

Romans 12:1-2
King James Version

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#930
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#930
Chris1975 said:
In the beginning someone (a person) is not a believer in Christ, but one day is presented with the Gospel. That person changes his/her mind and believes in Christ. Then comes along a false prophet (yes, the ones the bible warns about). This person gives heed to these new doctrines as presented by the false prophet/teacher. Their minds are then changed as old beliefs are replaced by new. Its as simple as that. That is WHY these warnings exist in scripture.
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That is called an intellectual belief in Christ.

An intellectual belief can be changed as often as a person changes their opinions.


Salvation is entirely different. A person can't be Saved and remain in this intellectual belief stage. Once they are Saved they Know God and they Know He is Good.


But you are essentially correct. Those warnings exist for the people who have only an intellectual belief in Christ.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#931
Apr 27, 2017
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#931
Grandpa said:
That is called an intellectual belief in Christ.

An intellectual belief can be changed as often as a person changes their opinions.


Salvation is entirely different. A person can't be Saved and remain in this intellectual belief stage. Once they are Saved they Know God and they Know He is Good.


But you are essentially correct. Those warnings exist for the people who have only an intellectual belief in Christ.
Click to expand...
These warnings apply to all Christians.
 
lightbearer

lightbearer

Senior Member
#932
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
#932
seed_time_harvest said:
believing and unbelieving Is not something a person can do like a person exercising everyday and then deciding not to work out.

If a person believes,how do they decide not to believe anymore and really be able to truly unbeliever,that's not possible.

If you know that your favorite color Is red how do you decide that now my favorite color Is blue and be In truth to what you really feel.

John 6:44
King James Version

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
+++
John 4:24
King James Version


24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Click to expand...
Unbelief as written in the kjv stems from disobedience.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#933
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
#933
lightbearer said:
Unbelief as written in the kjv stems from disobedience.
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Hebrews 3
18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

John 14
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Romans 10
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

LORD
Word: kurioj
Pronounce: koo'-ree-os
Strongs Number: G2962
Orig: from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.
Use: TDNT-3:1039,486 Noun Masculine
Heb Strong: H113 H136 H136 H410 H430 H433 H1167 H1376 H3068 H4756 H4911 H6697 H7706 H7980 H7989
  1. 1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
    1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
    1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#934
Jan 18, 2011
12,329
6,696
113
#934
Chris1975 said:
Hebrews 3
18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

John 14
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Romans 10
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

LORD
Word: kurioj
Pronounce: koo'-ree-os
Strongs Number: G2962
Orig: from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.
Use: TDNT-3:1039,486 Noun Masculine
Heb Strong: H113 H136 H136 H410 H430 H433 H1167 H1376 H3068 H4756 H4911 H6697 H7706 H7980 H7989
  1. 1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
    1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
    1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
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so, it seems you have no issues with certain greek words, you choose to ignore the definitions of some, like the word " believe", and the fact that the word " apostasy " is only used 2 times I the N.T., and many other Biblical truths...
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#935
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#935
Chris1975 said:
These warnings apply to all Christians.
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No they aren't. You don't have to warn a True Believer in Christ to not stop believing.

You only have to warn a person who only has an intellectual belief in Christ to not stop believing.
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#936
Dec 9, 2011
14,131
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#936
lightbearer said:
Unbelief as written in the kjv stems from disobedience.
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Yes It’s true that unbelief Is why a person was disobedient ,they didn trust GOD that they could not see even though all of creation declares HIM(faith) but unbelief IMO can only affect a person when they are In the process of walking or living holy on this planet But a person can’t come to GOD and receive anything If they aren’t In truth and a person that Is disobedient Is not In truth.

when a person comes to GOD I’m talking about salvation not progressive sanctification their obedience has to be truthful and It only takes one time for GOD to forgive them and justify them saving them.

Thats salvation
Now when It comes to progressive sanctification a person/mans obedience can waver depending on where he Is at In the process of renewing his mind.

so then you have obedience for salvation which Must be In truth to GOD

And then you have progressive sanctification which depends on where the person/man Is at In their walk In the process of renewing their mind.

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version


1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#937
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#937
Grandpa said:
Yes. I don't think it is possible to un-know something.

It can't be done.

At some point it goes from an untested theory to a practical fact. Once it is known as a practical fact it can't be un-known or disbelieved in.
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This would be true of mere intellectual knowledge.
You can't un-hear the name of Jesus.
But you can stop trusting in his blood for the forgiveness of sin.

You're going to have to start recognizing the clear distinction between just knowing something is real and actually placing your trust in what you know to be real. Then you'll begin to see how it is possible to stop believing (trusting) in Jesus. God doesn't do your trusting for you. He'll create the best possible environment for you to do that, but He won't do your actual trusting for you.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#939
Jun 24, 2011
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#939
Judges1318 said:
This would be true of mere intellectual knowledge.
You can't un-hear the name of Jesus.
But you can stop trusting in his blood for the forgiveness of sin.

You're going to have to start recognizing the clear distinction between just knowing something is real and actually placing your trust in what you know to be real. Then you'll begin to see how it is possible to stop believing (trusting) in Jesus. God doesn't do your trusting for you. He'll create the best possible environment for you to do that, but He won't do your actual trusting for you.
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I'm the one that needs to start recognizing the clear distinction?

Haven't I been describing the clear distinction to you and others for awhile now?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#940
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#940
Judges1318 said:
Listen to yourself.
You're saying I'm wrong for adding trust in Christ to Christ. :giggle:
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Nothing really wrong with what you are saying.

UNTIL you make it a requirement that YOU must do in order to be saved and stay saved. Then you make it into a Work instead of a Gift.
 
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