Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Dave-L]

The actions of the two witnesses occur before Satan is bound.

Satan was bound with the arrival of Christ at the first advent.

 

[Dave-L]

Not all word in revelation are symbol

Example rev1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The word Jesus Christ in this. verse is not a symbol

The word of God symbol of what.

How about the word angel is It a symbol?

Just don't stumble looking for red dragons circling the earth.

 

[Dave-L]

I am not

This is why you cannot understand Revelation. Jesus is Amillennial.

 

[presidente]

But it's all hearsay. Not one claims it of himself.

Reports of witnessing miracles isn't hearsay. Irenaeus wrote of his church raising the dead and believed all churches should be able to do so.

Interestingly, he considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies.

The fact is that the Bible teaches that the Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles as He wills. You have a big problem with the sovereignty of God in your thinking, not accepting it, as far as gifts are concerned. You seem to think you can limit God to only doing things that follow patterns you see in scriptures that you accept, while rejecting other patterns and direct doctrinal teaching of scripture.

God was never bound to only do miracles through the hands of the apostles or those on whom they laid their hands. The 12 apostles never laid hands on Moses or Elijah. There were miracle workers doing miracles in Jesus name before the ascension, and Christ corrected the apostles for forbidding them from doing so.

 

[presidente]

This is why you cannot understand Revelation. Jesus is Amillennial.

He's certainly over a thousand years old. That's a very odd statement.

In terms of theological position, in Acts 1, His statement encouraged the apostles in their belief of a restoration of the kingdom to Israel.

 

[Dave-L]

He's certainly over a thousand years old. That's a very odd statement.

In terms of theological position, in Acts 1, His statement encouraged the apostles in their belief of a restoration of the kingdom to Israel.

The 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed.

 

[Dave-L]

Reports of witnessing miracles isn't hearsay. Irenaeus wrote of his church raising the dead and believed all churches should be able to do so.

Interestingly, he considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies.

The fact is that the Bible teaches that the Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles as He wills. You have a big problem with the sovereignty of God in your thinking, not accepting it, as far as gifts are concerned. You seem to think you can limit God to only doing things that follow patterns you see in scriptures that you accept, while rejecting other patterns and direct doctrinal teaching of scripture.

God was never bound to only do miracles through the hands of the apostles or those on whom they laid their hands. The 12 apostles never laid hands on Moses or Elijah. There were miracle workers doing miracles in Jesus name before the ascension, and Christ corrected the apostles for forbidding them from doing so.

He was not an eyewitness. It's all spoof and hearsay. Just like today.

 

[presidente]

He was not an eyewitness. It's all spoof and hearsay. Just like today.

Have you read the parts about raising the dead btw?

There are plenty of testimonies of eye witnesses including those who were healed in various crusades. You seem to be the type who would dismiss such things out of hand.

I went to a Christian affiliated with my school affiliated with my church and nearly all the students attended there. There was a girl with visibly severely crossed eyes who wore 'coke bottle glasses' that looked odd because they magnified her eyes. She was obviously visually impaired. She was healed after an evangelist laid hands on her. I saw her normal eyes without glasses after the healing and she told me what happened after I asked her in the morning before school started.

There are also numerous eye witness testimonies, some with two or three witnesses. CBN puts interviews like this together. So does Sid Roth though he puts all kinds of stuff on his show.

Randy Clark's dissertation was on back healings. His committee included professors from top universities including medical. Nit sure if has been published in a peer reviewed journal. I recall seeing an abstract for a peer reviewed journal article on healings of blind or deaf in Mozambique

Amie Semple McPherson had a colorful life. But the San Diego reporters wrote about real healings they saw.

Delia Knox had a news piece I saw online, the gospel singer in a wheelchair. She got out after many years, over a decade, at the laying on of hands. Hers was a little gradual. But the news documented her returning to her parents house in Ohio. The mayor greeted her, too. This healing is well documented. You can see video of it.

There is lots of evidence out there it is disingenuous to say it does not exist as if you knew anything about it and had researched it. Especially since scripture contradicts your argument that the baptism of the Spirit or gifts were exclusively mediated through the hands of the apostles.

You seem to take the same approach to miracles that some atheists take toward the existence of God.

 

[presidente]

Dave-L what is your Biblical evidence that one must be baptized with the Spirit to perform a miracle? Did Moses or Elijah have it?

Does you rejection of miracles and supernatural knowledge and prophecy include those in the Scottish Reformation and later the Covenanter period?

 

[garee]

APOSTLE. An apostle in the NT is an envoy, an ambassador, or a missionary. In the NT the term “apostle” is applied to one who carries the message of the gospel.

A. Definition and Origin
B. Apostles as Missionaries
C. Jesus’ Disciples as Apostles
D. Paul as Apostle of the Gentiles
E. False Apostles
F. Christ as Apostle

A. Definition and Origin
The early Christian title of apostle, although well attested in the NT and other early Christian sources, presents a number of still unresolved problems. The noun “apostle” (apostolos) is originally an adjective derived from the verb apostellō (“send”), found in the NT with a considerable range of meanings. The basic concept is that of the sending of messengers or envoys; an apostle can also be called angelos (“messenger,” e.g., Luke 7:24; 9:52) or kērux (“herald,” e.g., 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11; cf. Mark 1:45; 2 Cor 5:20). Apostles can be human or divine, sent by human or divine authorities.
The original adjective apostolos is attested only infrequently in Greek literature, referring to an envoy or a bearer of a message in a general sense (e.g., Herodotus 1.21; Plato, Ep. 7.346a). This technical meaning conforms to the Aramaic selı̂aḥ (Ezra 7:14; Dan 5:24; cf. 2 Chr 17:7–9; for references and bibliography, see Spicq, 1982). In the Hellenistic era, the concept of the divine envoy was applied by Epictetus to the ideal cynic (Diss. 3.22.3; 4.8.31), but the term apostolos does not occur. Christianity, therefore, appears to have picked a secular term and made it into a specific office and title.
In addition to evidencing a bewildering range of applications of the title of apostle, the NT and the early patristic literature also attempt to define it. Since scholarship is still divided on many of the questions, the following definitions must be seen as part of the argument and not as final answers.
The basic definition given by Origen (Jo. 32.17, ed. Preuschen 1903: 453, line 17) is simple: “Everyone who is sent by someone is an apostle of the one who sent him.” The concept involves legal and administrative aspects and is basic to all types of representatives, envoys, and ambassadors. In the area of Christian religion, the term “apostle” can refer to a messenger, human or divine, sent by God or Christ to reveal messages or to reveal the message of the gospel. Origen’s definition, although later, is grounded in the NT itself; e.g., John 13:16: “Truly, truly I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than the one who sent him” (cf. also Matt 10:40–42; Gal 4:14). More specific is the definition given in Acts 1:21–22, according to which an apostle must be “one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us …” Paul mentions (2 Cor 12:12; cf. Rom 15:19; Acts 5:12) the practice of the apostle legitimating himself by “the signs of the apostle” (ta sēmeia tou apostolou): i.e., “by signs and miracles and wondrous deeds.” In the Petrine traditions, the task of the apostle is seen as transmitting the words of the prophets and of Jesus to the church (2 Pet 3:2; cf. the prophetic function of the apostles in Jude 17). Paul did not conform to any of these definitions, a fact that explains his position as an outsider and the difficulties he had obtaining recognition.

I was not loking for a open book chose your own meaning but the foundation of the word "sent one" (apostolos) Not what they are sent with .It is not of them .

Origen hit the nail on the head


The basic definition given by Origen (Jo. 32.17, ed. Preuschen 1903: 453, line 17) is simple: “Everyone who is sent by someone is an apostle of the one who sent him.” The concept involves legal and administrative aspects and is basic to all types of representatives, envoys, and ambassadors. In the area of Christian religion, the term “apostle” can refer to a messenger, human or divine, sent by God or Christ to reveal messages or to reveal the message of the gospel.

Was Moses a apostle? or Abraham ? Abel ?

Why seek after a bewildering range of applications of the title of apostle. How would that change what they do?

Why 12 out of the 27 listed? Sent one must represent something. Their feet are beautiful.

 

[garee]

Have you read the parts about raising the dead btw?

There are plenty of testimonies of eye witnesses including those who were healed in various crusades. You seem to be the type who would dismiss such things out of hand.

I went to a Christian affiliated with my school affiliated with my church and nearly all the students attended there. There was a girl with visibly severely crossed eyes who wore 'coke bottle glasses' that looked odd because they magnified her eyes. She was obviously visually impaired. She was healed after an evangelist laid hands on her. I saw her normal eyes without glasses after the healing and she told me what happened after I asked her in the morning before school started.

There are also numerous eye witness testimonies, some with two or three witnesses. CBN puts interviews like this together. So does Sid Roth though he puts all kinds of stuff on his show.

Randy Clark's dissertation was on back healings. His committee included professors from top universities including medical. Nit sure if has been published in a peer reviewed journal. I recall seeing an abstract for a peer reviewed journal article on healings of blind or deaf in Mozambique

Amie Semple McPherson had a colorful life. But the San Diego reporters wrote about real healings they saw.

Delia Knox had a news piece I saw online, the gospel singer in a wheelchair. She got out after many years, over a decade, at the laying on of hands. Hers was a little gradual. But the news documented her returning to her parents house in Ohio. The mayor greeted her, too. This healing is well documented. You can see video of it.

There is lots of evidence out there it is disingenuous to say it does not exist as if you knew anything about it and had researched it. Especially since scripture contradicts your argument that the baptism of the Spirit or gifts were exclusively mediated through the hands of the apostles.

You seem to take the same approach to miracles that some atheists take toward the existence of God.

No such thing as a "sign gift" to confirm the human touch . Signs are for those who rebel. Prophecy, God's word that brings eternal life for those who believe.

Miracles are simply miracles nothing more and nothing less . God is God nothing less. Jesus said. . marvel not at the greatest miracle born again .. God who is not served or does heal by human hands. He being of one mind and always doing whatsoever his soul desires he therefore performs that which he appoints to us. He has no needs but satisfies all his heart desires . He performs miracles on the just and those not justifier by His faith ..

The laying on of hands is simply a old testament ceremonial law use as a shadow, Folding one hands or bowing ones head provides the same. . a request he might have mercy.

 

[EternalFire]

Satan was bound with the arrival of Christ at the first advent.

How is that possible in light of verses such as Eph 2:2 and 1Co 5:5?

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the LORD.

 

[Dave-L]

How is that possible in light of verses such as Eph 2:2 and 1Co 5:5?

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the LORD.

If you define Satan's binding according to scripture, and not according to the definition of binding in secular thinking, the gospel bound him from deceiving the nations (gentiles) only. In view of the promise made to Abraham.

 

[Dave-L]

Check the foundations of the New Jerusalem. Only 12 apostles and 12 patriarchs.

 

[Dave-L]

Have you read the parts about raising the dead btw?

There are plenty of testimonies of eye witnesses including those who were healed in various crusades. You seem to be the type who would dismiss such things out of hand.

I went to a Christian affiliated with my school affiliated with my church and nearly all the students attended there. There was a girl with visibly severely crossed eyes who wore 'coke bottle glasses' that looked odd because they magnified her eyes. She was obviously visually impaired. She was healed after an evangelist laid hands on her. I saw her normal eyes without glasses after the healing and she told me what happened after I asked her in the morning before school started.

There are also numerous eye witness testimonies, some with two or three witnesses. CBN puts interviews like this together. So does Sid Roth though he puts all kinds of stuff on his show.

Randy Clark's dissertation was on back healings. His committee included professors from top universities including medical. Nit sure if has been published in a peer reviewed journal. I recall seeing an abstract for a peer reviewed journal article on healings of blind or deaf in Mozambique

Amie Semple McPherson had a colorful life. But the San Diego reporters wrote about real healings they saw.

Delia Knox had a news piece I saw online, the gospel singer in a wheelchair. She got out after many years, over a decade, at the laying on of hands. Hers was a little gradual. But the news documented her returning to her parents house in Ohio. The mayor greeted her, too. This healing is well documented. You can see video of it.

There is lots of evidence out there it is disingenuous to say it does not exist as if you knew anything about it and had researched it. Especially since scripture contradicts your argument that the baptism of the Spirit or gifts were exclusively mediated through the hands of the apostles.

You seem to take the same approach to miracles that some atheists take toward the existence of God.

It's nothing documented or solid. Just like today.

 

[presidente]

It's nothing documented or solid. Just like today.

New Atheist reasoning. Assume your right and dismiss evidence without examining it because it does not fit your unbiblical worldview.

You really have a problem with the sovereignty of God.

 

[presidente]

Check the foundations of the New Jerusalem. Only 12 apostles and 12 patriarchs.

What does that have to do with the topic?

In addition to the twelve apostles, there were post-ascension apostles in the first century like Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, etc. Paul implicitely acknowledges he was not one of the twelve in I Corinthians 15 where he writes that Jesus appeared to the twelve before appearing to him. He did not say the eleven.

 

[EternalFire]

If you define Satan's binding according to scripture, and not according to the definition of binding in secular thinking, the gospel bound him from deceiving the nations (gentiles) only. In view of the promise made to Abraham.

I am referencing the binding by an angel holding the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. To which binding are you referring?

 

[presidente]

No such thing as a "sign gift" to confirm the human touch .

Who is arguing for a 'sign gift?'

Signs are for those who rebel.

How many times does your error have to be corrected before you understand?

Signs were also for faithful kings like Hezekiah. Remember the shadow moving back? They were also for the apostles who asked Jesus for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

 

[presidente]

I avoid arguing against cessation of spiritual gifts with amils from revelation. There is not enough common ground.

The fact remains that the Bible demonstrates God has power to work miracles through people and He never says that He will not do so. Cessationists who argue for cessation of miracles presume to say what God will not do based on scripture. This is presumptuous and demonstrates a problem accepting God's sovereignty.

The Bible also teaches the Spirit gifts members of the body of Christ to heal and to work miracles as He wills. It is up to the Spirit of God, and these men have no right to try to infringe upon or limit the Spirit's decision.