Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?
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I understand your not. I was defending some of Calvin's or what men attribute to him . He is dead no questioning to see what he did say
We should start in the beginning. What makes up the Good News called the Gospel. Where is it defined ?What kind of work does it perform ? Who is the first person it worked in? Was Abel the one that God first had favor on? ?
We should start in the beginning. What makes up the Good News called the Gospel. Where is it defined ?What kind of work does it perform ? Who is the first person it worked in? Was Abel the one that God first had favor on? ?
and the call has gone out to all men...
Acts 17
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Acts 17
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
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Read Isaiah 45:21,22... God is speaking and says there is not other God beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. Not only is he acknowledging a Savior, but read verse 22, look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth. This verse is clearly stating that Salvation is available to everyone, not just the elects the distorted view you hold.
Read Isaiah 45:21,22... God is speaking and says there is not other God beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. Not only is he acknowledging a Savior, but read verse 22, look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth. This verse is clearly stating that Salvation is available to everyone, not just the elects the distorted view you hold.
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Reformed theology largely agrees, in terms of the "general call".
However, there is an "effective call" that the elect receive, which results in salvation.
And, this is the kind of call being discussed here.
Note that every single one who is drawn by the Father receives salvation, because they are raised on the last day.
This doesn't jive with free-willer theology, as they believe that people are drawn who do not receive salvation.
And, the reason they don't? They are not God's sheep. They are vessels of destruction.
Notice what Jesus says. He says the Jews in this section don't believe because they are not his sheep. He does not say, you do not believe so you are not my sheep..he says, you don't believe because you are not my sheep.
John 11:37 - 1 Timothy 6:2
22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand
(ESV)
Notice that Jesus also says those will NEVER PERISH.
Free-willers are a weird lot..some of them will claim after you are saved, you can decide, of your own free will, to ditch Jesus and go off on your own as a rogue apostate, never to return, and will be lost. Others will say, yeah, you can do that but you're still saved, even if you're never reconciled to Christ.
The Reformed view is that you WON'T ultimately reject Christ, because you have a new nature that wants to love and please God. Even if you go off the farm for a while, you will come back. And, this is because Jesus shepherds the believer, and brings them back into the fold. This is called "perseverance of the saints.
Let's face it..free-willer theology is crap. That's all it is. Their god doesn't have covenant-love for the saved. He is waiting for them to slip up so he can pitch them into hell. Either that, or he's some powerless old man wringing his hands in the corner, unable to do anything, because their free-will is more powerful than him.
I used to believe in such a dismal god, when I was in the cult, and when I was a Calvary Chapel guy..no more.
However, there is an "effective call" that the elect receive, which results in salvation.
And, this is the kind of call being discussed here.
Note that every single one who is drawn by the Father receives salvation, because they are raised on the last day.
This doesn't jive with free-willer theology, as they believe that people are drawn who do not receive salvation.
And, the reason they don't? They are not God's sheep. They are vessels of destruction.
Notice what Jesus says. He says the Jews in this section don't believe because they are not his sheep. He does not say, you do not believe so you are not my sheep..he says, you don't believe because you are not my sheep.
John 11:37 - 1 Timothy 6:2
22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand
(ESV)
Notice that Jesus also says those will NEVER PERISH.
Free-willers are a weird lot..some of them will claim after you are saved, you can decide, of your own free will, to ditch Jesus and go off on your own as a rogue apostate, never to return, and will be lost. Others will say, yeah, you can do that but you're still saved, even if you're never reconciled to Christ.
The Reformed view is that you WON'T ultimately reject Christ, because you have a new nature that wants to love and please God. Even if you go off the farm for a while, you will come back. And, this is because Jesus shepherds the believer, and brings them back into the fold. This is called "perseverance of the saints.
Let's face it..free-willer theology is crap. That's all it is. Their god doesn't have covenant-love for the saved. He is waiting for them to slip up so he can pitch them into hell. Either that, or he's some powerless old man wringing his hands in the corner, unable to do anything, because their free-will is more powerful than him.
I used to believe in such a dismal god, when I was in the cult, and when I was a Calvary Chapel guy..no more.
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So, the claim is that the unsaved are not under the bondage of Satan.
Man, you'd have to be blind not to see that.
Do you realize that the Israelite bondage to Egypt was typological of the believers' bondage to sin and Satan?
Pharaoh was a type of Satan.
Besides EXPLICIT New Testament passages, this typology sticks out like a sore thumb.
Pharaoh hated it that Moses, used by God, was being used to liberate the Israelites from captivity. He opposed it in every way he could. The same battle occurs when one of the elect is drawn out of Satan's world.
By the way, you simply just need to read the Bible.
Colossians 1:9-14 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin
(ESV)
Here is the typology:
Moses => Christ
Pharaoh => Satan
Egypt => life of sin and bondage to it and the powers of darkness
Pharaoh's army => demonic powers
Red Sea =. baptism
Passover lamb => Jesus' atonement
It's so plain I think even dispensationalists see it
By the way, I could quote several verses that would say unbelievers are under the power of sin, their own deceitful natures, AND Satan, so I don't know why this is even an issue.
And, I start to wonder if people who would deny this are really believers...because if they were, they would know the deceptiveness of Satan, and their own corrupted natures. God showed me that within 4 months of studying the Bible as a seeker, and this is what led to my regeneration. So, I am left wondering if you guys are still in darkness.
Man, you'd have to be blind not to see that.
Do you realize that the Israelite bondage to Egypt was typological of the believers' bondage to sin and Satan?
Pharaoh was a type of Satan.
Besides EXPLICIT New Testament passages, this typology sticks out like a sore thumb.
Pharaoh hated it that Moses, used by God, was being used to liberate the Israelites from captivity. He opposed it in every way he could. The same battle occurs when one of the elect is drawn out of Satan's world.
By the way, you simply just need to read the Bible.
Colossians 1:9-14 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin
(ESV)
Here is the typology:
Moses => Christ
Pharaoh => Satan
Egypt => life of sin and bondage to it and the powers of darkness
Pharaoh's army => demonic powers
Red Sea =. baptism
Passover lamb => Jesus' atonement
It's so plain I think even dispensationalists see it
By the way, I could quote several verses that would say unbelievers are under the power of sin, their own deceitful natures, AND Satan, so I don't know why this is even an issue.
And, I start to wonder if people who would deny this are really believers...because if they were, they would know the deceptiveness of Satan, and their own corrupted natures. God showed me that within 4 months of studying the Bible as a seeker, and this is what led to my regeneration. So, I am left wondering if you guys are still in darkness.
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God has provided a free-will choice to all men through the precious blood of His dear Son, Jesus.
I love you, but the Scripture commands me to expose you, along with your devisive and anti-biblical false teachings.
Romans 16
16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
I love you, but the Scripture commands me to expose you, along with your devisive and anti-biblical false teachings.
Romans 16
16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
Do what you want. Jesus' sheep listens to his voice. Salvation is of the LORD.
We are not co-saviors, and to think so is simply taking away God's glory from him, and engaging in boasting.
I again point folks to 1 Cor 1:26ff. There's no way that an honest man, who reads the NT from beginning to end, can deny unconditional election and predestination. It's only those who want to form a Play-doh god that meets their standards of fairness that can evade the truth of Scripture.
God is sovereign and can do ANYTHING HE WANTS with anyone.
And, every unsaved person is, in essence, a rebel against God. He knows that he is sinning against God and that he deserves eternal punishment. He may deny his knowledge of this, but at a deeper level he does in fact KNOW IT.
There are no innocent people who will suffer eternal punishment.
We are not co-saviors, and to think so is simply taking away God's glory from him, and engaging in boasting.
I again point folks to 1 Cor 1:26ff. There's no way that an honest man, who reads the NT from beginning to end, can deny unconditional election and predestination. It's only those who want to form a Play-doh god that meets their standards of fairness that can evade the truth of Scripture.
God is sovereign and can do ANYTHING HE WANTS with anyone.
And, every unsaved person is, in essence, a rebel against God. He knows that he is sinning against God and that he deserves eternal punishment. He may deny his knowledge of this, but at a deeper level he does in fact KNOW IT.
There are no innocent people who will suffer eternal punishment.
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So, the claim is that the unsaved are not under the bondage of Satan.
Man, you'd have to be blind not to see that.
Do you realize that the Israelite bondage to Egypt was typological of the believers' bondage to sin and Satan?
Pharaoh was a type of Satan.
Besides EXPLICIT New Testament passages, this typology sticks out like a sore thumb.
Pharaoh hated it that Moses, used by God, was being used to liberate the Israelites from captivity. He opposed it in every way he could. The same battle occurs when one of the elect is drawn out of Satan's world.
By the way, you simply just need to read the Bible.
Colossians 1:9-14 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin
(ESV)
Here is the typology:
Moses => Christ
Pharaoh => Satan
Egypt => life of sin and bondage to it and the powers of darkness
Pharaoh's army => demonic powers
Red Sea =. baptism
Passover lamb => Jesus' atonement
It's so plain I think even dispensationalists see it
By the way, I could quote several verses that would say unbelievers are under the power of sin, their own deceitful natures, AND Satan, so I don't know why this is even an issue.
And, I start to wonder if people who would deny this are really believers...because if they were, they would know the deceptiveness of Satan, and their own corrupted natures. God showed me that within 4 months of studying the Bible as a seeker, and this is what led to my regeneration. So, I am left wondering if you guys are still in darkness.
Man, you'd have to be blind not to see that.
Do you realize that the Israelite bondage to Egypt was typological of the believers' bondage to sin and Satan?
Pharaoh was a type of Satan.
Besides EXPLICIT New Testament passages, this typology sticks out like a sore thumb.
Pharaoh hated it that Moses, used by God, was being used to liberate the Israelites from captivity. He opposed it in every way he could. The same battle occurs when one of the elect is drawn out of Satan's world.
By the way, you simply just need to read the Bible.
Colossians 1:9-14 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin
(ESV)
Here is the typology:
Moses => Christ
Pharaoh => Satan
Egypt => life of sin and bondage to it and the powers of darkness
Pharaoh's army => demonic powers
Red Sea =. baptism
Passover lamb => Jesus' atonement
It's so plain I think even dispensationalists see it
By the way, I could quote several verses that would say unbelievers are under the power of sin, their own deceitful natures, AND Satan, so I don't know why this is even an issue.
And, I start to wonder if people who would deny this are really believers...because if they were, they would know the deceptiveness of Satan, and their own corrupted natures. God showed me that within 4 months of studying the Bible as a seeker, and this is what led to my regeneration. So, I am left wondering if you guys are still in darkness.
Of course they can. The mind of the unsaved dwells in chaos. Man is in the image of God, and retains a knowledge of what holiness means. This is taught in Romans 2, which says that even the Gentiles have some rudimentary conscience.
But, regardless of that, you are intentionally quoting from the KJV to support your point. The KJV is not a very good translation.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(ESV)
But, regardless of that, you are intentionally quoting from the KJV to support your point. The KJV is not a very good translation.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(ESV)
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How can you relegate the verses I quoted to believers? It is not. All unbelievers are under the bondage of Satan.
And besides that, it says that God grants repentance. Does he only grant repentance to believers who have fallen away, or does he grant repentance to all who are saved?
It is the latter. In fact, in Acts, this is taught:
Acts 11:18 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
(ESV)
Repentance is a specific gift of God to those who are saved.
It is not something they conjure up by themselves. Notice that they glorified God..they didn't pat the Gentiles on the back and congratulate them on their spiritual prowess that they exercised to repent.
The credit goes to God, and this is something free-willers cannot stand.
Again, I point people to 1 Cor 1:26ff.
Notice that the free-willers won't even dare touch this section
And besides that, it says that God grants repentance. Does he only grant repentance to believers who have fallen away, or does he grant repentance to all who are saved?
It is the latter. In fact, in Acts, this is taught:
Acts 11:18 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
(ESV)
Repentance is a specific gift of God to those who are saved.
It is not something they conjure up by themselves. Notice that they glorified God..they didn't pat the Gentiles on the back and congratulate them on their spiritual prowess that they exercised to repent.
The credit goes to God, and this is something free-willers cannot stand.
Again, I point people to 1 Cor 1:26ff.
Notice that the free-willers won't even dare touch this section
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LOL
KJV Only guys are ridiculous. Many of them are Independent Fundamental Baptists. They are a joke. Largely, they don't believe in real repentance, and claim that Christians don't need to bear fruit. Steven Anderson is a prime example. He reminds me of Peewee Herman.
Gail Riplinger is a charismatic nut, and Peter Ruckman was plain insane, claiming that the CIA has placed brain transmitters in the minds of the aged, black people and children, and is breeding aliens in warehouses. Kent Hovind is a prideful individual who displays his ignorance constantly.
KJV Only guys are ridiculous. Many of them are Independent Fundamental Baptists. They are a joke. Largely, they don't believe in real repentance, and claim that Christians don't need to bear fruit. Steven Anderson is a prime example. He reminds me of Peewee Herman.
Gail Riplinger is a charismatic nut, and Peter Ruckman was plain insane, claiming that the CIA has placed brain transmitters in the minds of the aged, black people and children, and is breeding aliens in warehouses. Kent Hovind is a prideful individual who displays his ignorance constantly.
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Anything I have said is not hyper-Calvinism.
I present simple Reformed theology, along the lines of Alistair Begg, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, David Platt, etcetera.
But some use the label of "moderate Reformed" to claim that they believe in God's sovereignty in salvation.
In reality, they do not. They simply believe in eternal security, which is not a Reformed doctrine. The Reformed believe in perseverance of the saints, not once-saved-always saved. Reformed people acknowledge that perseverance is REQUIRED, and not simply optional like no-Lordship people claim.
Their claim is inconsistent with free-willer theology, though..in essence, they are claiming that God doesn't elect, and bring the elect to salvation, but once they are saved, they are saved forever. Some would say that they lose their free-will and will never rebel against God. But, they can't really maintain their free-will theology with their belief system.
The fruit of redemption is good works and obedience, and there are no saved people who don't produce this fruit, although they may backslide for a period of time.
I present simple Reformed theology, along the lines of Alistair Begg, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, David Platt, etcetera.
But some use the label of "moderate Reformed" to claim that they believe in God's sovereignty in salvation.
In reality, they do not. They simply believe in eternal security, which is not a Reformed doctrine. The Reformed believe in perseverance of the saints, not once-saved-always saved. Reformed people acknowledge that perseverance is REQUIRED, and not simply optional like no-Lordship people claim.
Their claim is inconsistent with free-willer theology, though..in essence, they are claiming that God doesn't elect, and bring the elect to salvation, but once they are saved, they are saved forever. Some would say that they lose their free-will and will never rebel against God. But, they can't really maintain their free-will theology with their belief system.
The fruit of redemption is good works and obedience, and there are no saved people who don't produce this fruit, although they may backslide for a period of time.
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