Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
God's Perfection, His Law in the heart and mind is moot? For by one offering he hath perfected for ever (not sanctified forever) them that are sanctified. WHEREOF (this perfection in which we speak) the Holy Ghost ALSO is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.


NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost.
For if we (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ( GOD"S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED, Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace which they were given.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6 KJV)
False and satanic to boot......being sanctified in Christ is eternally given GENIUS......

Perfected FOREVER <---to lose being sanctified ONE MUST LOSE the perfection that is given forever

You guys make me sick the way you butcher the word and flat deny truth by your skewed twisted views....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
So now a person has to have a certain level of intensity of faith "strong faith" for salvation.

Anything else you want to load on?
These jokers must be as dense as lead....

We are perfected for ever because we have been sanctified in Christ....yet they say we can lose sanctification even though we are PERFECTED forever.....

I have seen lead paint on the wall that has a greater cognitive ability.....
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,271
1,429
113
Do you consider the Bible's admonition to 'hold fast' striving to continue believing?
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful"

Hebrews 10:23( NKJV )

I take this to mean having confidence in God and in his word. One who has more experience trusting God and seeing him faithful may find trusting to come more naturally than one who hasn't put into practice trusting God as much. There are other places trust can be placed in: ourselves, allies, other people, money etc. It can be easy to trust in someone seen verses God who is unseen. Perhaps at times God uses the hard times to show that we need to trust him above all else.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
False and satanic to boot......being sanctified in Christ is eternally given GENIUS......

Perfected FOREVER <---to lose being sanctified ONE MUST LOSE the perfection that is given forever

You guys make me sick the way you butcher the word and flat deny truth by your skewed twisted views....
The reason why you are getting upset is because the post you replied to is true and you can't kick against the pricks. So you resort name calling and other attempts to side track the fact that you do not have a leg to stand on.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever (not sanctified forever) them that are sanctified. WHEREOF (this perfection in which we speak) the Holy Ghost ALSO is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.


NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost.
For if we (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ( GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED, Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace which they were given.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6 KJV)
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
These jokers must be as dense as lead....

We are perfected for ever because we have been sanctified in Christ....yet they say we can lose sanctification even though we are PERFECTED forever.....

I have seen lead paint on the wall that has a greater cognitive ability.....
That doesn't say much for that lead paint that's for sure. :D
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
These jokers must be as dense as lead....

We are perfected for ever because we have been sanctified in Christ....yet they say we can lose sanctification even though we are PERFECTED forever.....

I have seen lead paint on the wall that has a greater cognitive ability.....
NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost.
For if we (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified (as in not anymore), an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED (as in not anymore) , Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace (GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds) which they were given. Because it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
New believers, that's how.
The setting apart of the believer into ever increasing fruit and good works is a process.
If you were the rare believer that was born mature, I'm happy for you.
Even new believers can produce fruit. We don't need to become a mature believer before we finally produce any fruit at all. As we grow to maturity in Christ, there will be ever increasing fruit, but that does not mean we remain fruitless until then. Right out of the starting gate as a new believer, I was sharing the gospel with everyone I knew and within 3-4 months, my wife, my son, my brother in law and sister in law all received Christ through faith. Praise the Lord! :)

But don't project your experience onto others.
I never said that I was born mature. Going from babes in Christ to maturity in Christ is a process and doesn't happen overnight.

IMO, 95% of genuinely believing, saved Christians are type 2 & 3 soil believers.
So 95% of genuine believing, saved Christians produce no fruit at all? o_O So according to your estimate, what % of saved Christians do YOU believe end up losing their salvation? 75%? 50%? 25%?

The saved Galatians were type 2 soil believers. They believed for a while, and arguably with joy, but fell away.
In a different post, you said we will have to wait to see if these Galatians permanently fell away, but now you confidently argue they fell away and lost their salvation? Sometimes I think you just make stuff up as you go along in order to accommodate your biased theology.

If you do not grow up to good works in your faith and instead persist in dead faith (faith with no works to show for it) that faith will not save you. In the end you will be rejected when Christ returns.
Persist in dead faith? Believers have a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) which results in producing good works. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works or that dead faith is authentic faith. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! (y)

Faith without works can not save. James says so. If you do not grow up into works of righteousness, you have a faith that can not save you. Does God expect you to be mature on the day you were born again? Of course not. Can you stay that way to the very end? No, of course not.
I know that faith without works (empty profession of faith/dead faith that results in producing no works at all) cannot save. Of course God does not expect us to be mature on the day we were born again, but he also doesn't expect us to finally start producing good works after we become mature in Christ either. It doesn't take a mature believer to share the gospel, show love towards others, clothe and feed the poor etc.. I've seen many new believers exhibit this fruit in their lives.

The mistake you are making is saying all failed believing without exception was never real to begin with.
Well then show me the words in the Bible to make your argument conclusive -- "lost salvation." God's saints are preserved forever.. (Psalm 37:28) Jesus gives His sheep eternal life, they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand.. (John 10:27-28) Those whom God justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30) Those who believe the gospel are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:3-14) He who has begun a good work in us (believers) will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6) If your theory about failed believing/losing salvation was correct, then all of these promises are out the window.

No, the parable of the sower shows us it can be a matter of weak vs. strong faith, not just fake vs. real faith. Until you can grasp that there are, both, fake temporary 'believers' and real temporary believers you will continue to beat your osas drum.
There are no real "temporary" believers, but there are numerous "temporary" make believers. Saving belief in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Until you finally get that through your head, you will continue to beat your nosas drum.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
They know they have eternal life.............until they don't believe.
Show me where John said, "until they don't believe" in 1 John 5:13.

Then they find out that all the believing they have done that they thought was real has really been fake all along. That's hardly a doctrine of assurance. In your doctrine, there's always the potential for tomorrow to reveal your believing to have really been fake all along. Not very assuring.
If we truly believe in Jesus for salvation then we can certainly know we have eternal life. Personally, I never had assurance of salvation UNTIL the day I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Prior to that, I was trusting in works for salvation and crossed my fingers about whether or not I would be saved. At that time, I was always hoping that somehow I would be "good enough" in the eyes of the Lord in order to be saved based on my performance. Sadly, there are many "nominal" Christians in the same boat that I was previously in prior to my conversion.

What I see is you trying to have it both ways. You want to say continuing in faith shows you to be really saved, at the same time you say you can know you're saved before you know if you're going to continue in the faith.
Those who believe in the name of the Son of God can know they are saved NOW. Continuing in the faith gives further evidence that you truly were saved. I can't believe how absolutely obsessed you are with nosas! So are Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. :oops:
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
The reason why you are getting upset is because the post you replied to is true and you can't kick against the pricks. So you resort name calling and other attempts to side track the fact that you do not have a leg to stand on.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever (not sanctified forever) them that are sanctified. WHEREOF (this perfection in which we speak) the Holy Ghost ALSO is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.


NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost.
For if we (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ( GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED, Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace which they were given.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6 KJV)
Wrong genius...whay I cannot stand is your satanic twist of God's word...get your facts straight...by your own words you oppose and devalue Jesus and you will pay for it in the end.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
Wrong genius...whay I cannot stand is your satanic twist of God's word...get your facts straight....
Not my facts GOD'S

NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost.
For if we (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified (as in not anymore), an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED (as in not anymore) , Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace (GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds) which they were given. Because it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
Except the Galatians, of course. They did not continue in Christ.
And you have conclusive evidence of this? Show me those words, "lost salvation."

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 3:2-3, 5:4, 4:10-11
Once again, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; [that you will adopt no other view contrary to mine on the matter]; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? Your argument remains INCONCLUSIVE.

They believed, but left their faith in Christ and went back to law keeping for justification.
You are yet to prove they left their faith in Christ and permanently went back to law keeping for justification. Previously you said we will have to wait and see how it turned out, but now you are back peddling and implying they lost their salvation.

But somehow 1 John 2:19 still means the person who departs was never saved to begin with.
1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for IF they had been of us, they WOULD HAVE continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (y)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
Perfected FOREVER <---to lose being sanctified ONE MUST LOSE the perfection that is given forever.
Amen! Hebrews 10:10 - By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (y)

Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (y)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful"

Hebrews 10:23( NKJV )

I take this to mean having confidence in God and in his word. One who has more experience trusting God and seeing him faithful may find trusting to come more naturally than one who hasn't put into practice trusting God as much. There are other places trust can be placed in: ourselves, allies, other people, money etc. It can be easy to trust in someone seen verses God who is unseen. Perhaps at times God uses the hard times to show that we need to trust him above all else.
We also remember, the faith we are concerned with is the faith of the promise God will save us, and we will get to heaven, which wavers some, but a truely saved person would never totally lose that faith.

now faith God will help me live a specific life, or that god knows better than me n this one area. Thats a different story.

I can trust God will save me, And not trust God with my finances for whatever reason.

That does not mean I lost faith and am now lost.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,427
113
58
We also remember, the faith we are concerned with is the faith of the promise God will save us, and we will get to heaven, which wavers some, but a truely saved person would never totally lose that faith.

now faith God will help me live a specific life, or that god knows better than me n this one area. Thats a different story.

I can trust God will save me, And not trust God with my finances for whatever reason.

That does not mean I lost faith and am now lost.
I have always said that genuine believers trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, but don't always trust in Him just to get them through their day or through a bad situation or with their finances etc.. which doesn't mean they stopped trusting in Jesus for salvation and are now lost. As we go through the process of ongoing sanctification, we learn to trust the Lord more and more in all areas of our life as we progress in spiritual growth and maturity.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have always said that genuine believers trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, but don't always trust in Him just to get them through their day or through a bad situation or with their finances etc.. which doesn't mean they stopped trusting in Jesus for salvation and are now lost. As we go through the process of ongoing sanctification, we learn to trust the Lord more and more in all areas of our life as we progress in spiritual growth and maturity.
Amen

we have babes in christ

teens in christ

young men andnwomen in christ

and the mature older in christ.

yet allof them are in CHRIST

The problem is some who are seemingly grown fall back due to a situational problem or something as their faith wavers and they fall back

They may not be the person of faith they were. But they are still IN CHRIST
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
False and satanic to boot......being sanctified in Christ is eternally given GENIUS......

Perfected FOREVER <---to lose being sanctified ONE MUST LOSE the perfection that is given forever

You guys make me sick the way you butcher the word and flat deny truth by your skewed twisted views....
"Flat out deny Truth".... this is exactly it.

It is for sure sickening to use God's own words against God.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
Amen! Hebrews 10:10 - By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (upon one occasion only).
(Heb 10:10 KJV)

As you know "Once for all" is ἐφάπαξ in the Greek. Strong's Lexicon in the back of his concordance concurs that it means upon one occasion only .
ἐφάπαξ
ephapax
ef-ap'-ax
From G1909 and G530; upon one occasion (only): - (at) once (for all).


For by one offering he hath perfected for ever (not sanctified forever) them that are sanctified. WHEREOF (this perfection in which we speak) the Holy Ghost ALSO is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.


NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost as verses 26-29 put forth through God's Holy Spirit.

For if WE (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ( GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED, Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace which they were given.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Not my facts GOD'S

NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost.
For if we (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified (as in not anymore), an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED (as in not anymore) , Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace (GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds) which they were given. Because it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6)
You really have no idea what the book of Hebrews is about that much is evident.

In every post you essentially make God a liar.

And the fact that you never replied to my post demonstrates that you have no understanding of your cherry picked verses.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (upon one occasion only).
(Heb 10:10 KJV)

As you know "Once for all" is ἐφάπαξ in the Greek. Strong's Lexicon in the back of his concordance concurs that it means upon one occasion only .
ἐφάπαξ
ephapax
ef-ap'-ax
From G1909 and G530; upon one occasion (only): - (at) once (for all).


For by one offering he hath perfected for ever (not sanctified forever) them that are sanctified. WHEREOF (this perfection in which we speak) the Holy Ghost ALSO is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.


NOT SANCTIFIED forever, Sanctification can be lost as verses 26-29 put forth through God's Holy Spirit.

For if WE (the church, including the writer) are sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those who are sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ( GOD'S Law in the hearts and minds)
(Heb 10:26-29)

WAS SANCTIFIED, Sanctification LOST because they done despite unto the Spirit of grace which they were given.
You nullify the work of the cross and make it of no effect.

You DENY the power of Christ Jesus

You place your work above the saving GRACE of God

The entire book of Hebrews affirms salvation is secure.

You deny God's truth to keep and protect your own pride.