The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

[tanakh]

The question one should answer is if God wanted to save everyone would he deliberately hide an important teaching like the second coming by wrapping it up in complex interpretations and then leaving it for 2000 plus years before anyone could understand it. By ''understanding'' it seems according to some of these postings it requires a very good knowledge of Hebrew, Greek and an advanced
education of English Grammar plus a special relationship with the Holy Spirit coupled with an active imagination. If anyone doesn't have all or even some of these attributes then I am sorry to say you have failed the exam and St Peter will say at the gates you are pig ignorant on your bike and go to hell. Sorry if anyone is offended but much of what I have seen so far on this thread is piffle

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A person is "SAVED" regardless of what they understand regarding "rapture" doctrine.

It is not the basis of our "salvation"

(however, what we "say" now CAN affect those who will exist on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and THIS is ONE reason why I even bother to "comment" )

The question one should answer is if God wanted to save everyone would he […]

Keep in mind the factors that will be "in play" AFTER our Rapture, as found written in 2Th2:10-12 especially:
"For this reason GOD SHALL SEND..."

[this is not the ONLY factor that will be "in play," mind you, but ONE of them]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...and in one of those linked posts, points out:

that the first seven English translations of the Bible translate [in 2Th2:3] it as "THE DEPARTURE [/THE DEPARTING] first"... before the kjv later translated it as "a falling away" (leaving off the definite article "the").

Perhaps it WAS easier for them, back in the days of those translations, than it is in our day of "internet gurus by the ton"... but it is our responsibility to search out a matter and search the scriptures to see if these things be so. (of course, it helps if one is made aware of it. )




The BASIC meaning of that Grk word is "departure".

CONTEXT (and basic grammar) helps us determine just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant (in any given passage, where used).

That is simple and straightforward. Man/men/people make/s it complicated.

 

[PennEd]

Paul didn't teach a pre-trib rapture. He taught a resurrection/rapture. I don't see it in the Prophets or the NT. It's a fantasy that appeals to a modern, comfortable Western church.

Hosea 12:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

The Rabbis believe patterns and models are Prophecy.

We have a perfect model of judgement with Noah's flood.

We had those raptured BEFORE tribulation. (ENOCH) - Equating to the Church

We had those preserved THROUGH tribulation (NOAH AND HIS FAMILY) Equating to those who will become believers during the Great Tribulation.

We had those perishing in the tribulation and judgement in the flood. (THE REST OF MANKIND) Equating to the rest of mankind in the Great Tribulation and judgement.


I'd like also ask you to reflect on WHERE the 7 Church lampstands at the start of the Great Tribulation?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

This is what tells me you have no idea what is actually being discussed: "...It's a pre-tribber's sense of entitlement that scripture belongs only to a pre-trib theory. And it is only theory."

You and any others here who use the same colloquialisms, "pre-tribber's", "free willers", lose all credibility the moment you write those meaningless words.
If you're unable to comport yourself in a reasonable manner and with proper diction, and especially after you claim you prefer rational thinking in discussions concerning scripture, then don't expect to be taken as any more than a trouble maker.

The onus is on you and those who think there is no such thing in scripture as pretribulation rapture, but rather, post tribulation rapture.

Find the scripture in proper context that proves your argument for a post tribulation rapture. Your effort in offering 1 Thessalonians 4 failed.

Don't attack people using scurrilous dismissives thinking that proves your point. It does not. Rather, it shows you are not secure in your argument and you then seek to make the member you address focus on the perceived slight you intend them to take offense to in your postings.

That doesn't work with me. That kind of post tells me you need to grow up so that you are able to speak then years in the future as an adult. And about adult topics and showing the proper respect for scripture in the case of entering this Bible Discussion Forum.

Rational and Biblically sound.

Thank you,
You seem to believe you are claiming some sort of high ground but all you have done is demonstrate the arrogant sense of entitlement I described.

You don't even want to be called a pre-tribber? Why? Explain how 'pre-tribber' is "meaningless" ?
How shall one refer to someone who becomes offended at the very suggestion that the pre-trib rapture theory may be false?

 

[Whispered]

Thank you,
You seem to believe you are claiming some sort of high ground but all you have done is demonstrate the arrogant sense of entitlement I described.

You don't even want to be called a pre-tribber? Why? Explain how 'pre-tribber' is "meaningless" ?
How shall one refer to someone who becomes offended at the very suggestion that the pre-trib rapture theory may be false?

Thank you for providing your own words to sustain every word of my former post.

The high ground remark tells me quite a bit. Perhaps the horse is grazing in the valley.
Thanks again.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Hosea 12:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

The Rabbis believe patterns and models are Prophecy.

We have a perfect model of judgement with Noah's flood.

We had those raptured BEFORE tribulation. (ENOCH) - Equating to the Church

We had those preserved THROUGH tribulation (NOAH AND HIS FAMILY) Equating to those who will become believers during the Great Tribulation.

We had those perishing in the tribulation and judgement in the flood. (THE REST OF MANKIND) Equating to the rest of mankind in the Great Tribulation and judgement.


I'd like also ask you to reflect on WHERE the 7 Church lampstands at the start of the Great Tribulation?

Rabbis eh? Funny that. I also believe that prophecy follows patterns and models.
There are patterns and models that blow the pre-trib theory apart. I've attempted to discuss them here years ago on other threads.
How many rapture threads have there been? I've posted loads of scripture and cross-referencing. People tend to cling to their view however much scriptural evidence one highlights.

Regarding the the 7 lampstands, I assume you are referring to the lampstands of Revelation 2 & 3?
Why don't you tell me where you think the Great Tribulation begins.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

it's not just that.

It has to do with how the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is defined.

Some believe it only refers to the point in time of Christ's return in Rev19 (or that point in time and following); but it involves much more than that. It involves the entire tribulation period as well. So that, Paul (in 1Th5 [the quoted passage in that poster's post]) is saying that we will not be present on the earth at the same time that it (the DOTL) commences/ARRIVES (to unfold upon the earth).

That The Day of The Lord is not confined to one Earth day I understand. But please explain where you think Paul is saying "we will not be present on the earth." That's a very specific statement.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Thank you for providing your own words to sustain every word of my former post.

The high ground remark tells me quite a bit. Perhaps the horse is grazing in the valley.
Thanks again.

Well bravo! aren't you clever!

Incorrect.

This is where you lost my serious attention to begin with.

Saul's/Paul's epistles (letters) were not in chapter verse form as appears in our Bible today. It was a letter written as we write letters today. Therefore, his letter to the churches in Thessalonica would continue from "chapter 4" unto chapter 5.

Indeed. I would have explained the same to you.
Which proves the letter is about the return of The Lord. The resurrection and the rapture occur at his return.
There is no need to make two separate events of the resurrection-rapture & the return of The Lord when the apostle
spelled it out plainly as one event.

I9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

"God has not destined us for wrath."

This does not mean that the ONLY POSSIBLE way for The Lord to shield us from the wrath he pours out on his enemies is to whisk us away to heaven. The scripture does not say that. Some Bible commentaries may say that, the scripture does not. It's an assumption.

 

[Nehemiah6]

We have a perfect model of judgement with Noah's flood.

1. We also have the example of Lot and his family (minus his sons-in-law). Lot is presented as a righteous man in Scripture (even though his choices were unrighteous). In any event God sent angels to literally drag Lot, his wife, and daughters out of Sodom just before God rained down His judgment. This is an excellent example of how God preserves His saints prior to bringing down His wrath.

2. The Bible is crystal clear that believers are NOT subject to wrath. Many falsely claim that the Tribulation period is not a period of wrath, even though both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan are both expressed during that time. Therefore the Church will not be present on earth during this period.

3. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" from Revelation 6 through 18. Those chapters describe both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. That in itself is proof that the Church is not on earth at that time.

4. Revelation 3:10 has general application to the Church, where "the hour of temptation" would be seen as the period of testing which will come upon the earth during the Tribulation. And here is what Christ says: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

5. God the Holy Spirit -- who is the Restrainer of Satan -- will be "taken out of the way" before the Antichrist takes control (and the Tribulation coincides with the reign of the Antichrist). The only proper way to interpret this is that since the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit has been on earth to (1) empower the Gospel, (2) bring sinners to the Savior, and (3) to indwell and empower believers. So the only way that He can be "taken out of the way" is if He goes back to Heaven along with the Church, during the Tribulation. This will allow Satan and the Antichrist to take total control of the inhabitants of the earth for 3 1/2 years.

 

[Rondonmon]

Why not simply ignore all the propaganda and focus on what is in the Bible? Just one passage -- John 14:1-3 -- should suffice.

THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE: REVEALED BY CHRIST BEFORE HIS CRUCIFIXION

NO TRIBULATION BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD WHO WILL ASCEND BACK TO THE FATHER
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

GOD THE FATHER IS IN HEAVEN WHERE THERE ARE MANY MANSIONS FOR THE SAINTS
2 In my Father's house are many mansions... [Note: not just little rooms]

WHAT IS STATED IS ABSOLUTE FACT
...if it were not so, I would have told you...

CHRIST IS IN HEAVEN PREPARING A PLACE FOR HIS OWN IN THE NEW JERUSALEM
...I go to prepare a place for you... For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb 11:10)

THE REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE: I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...(1 Thess 4:16)

THE SAINTS TO BE WITH CHRIST IN HEAVEN ETERNALLY
...that where I am, there ye may be also... and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:17)

Paul is a MAN.......Not a woman !!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul is a MAN.......Not a woman !!

What does that have to do with anything that was said?

 

[GaryA]

There can be no doubt. Joel and Mark and Acts are speaking of the same event.

Indeed!

All of the following are referring to the same 'sun-and-moon' event:

Isaiah 13:10
Joel 2:10,31; 3:15
Zechariah 14:6
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25
Acts 2:20
Revelation 6:12-13; 8:12

 

[GaryA]

All "Day of the Lord" and "Coming of the Lord" phrases in the Bible are referring to the very same exact singular (major) event we call the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[GaryA]

The onus is on you and those who think there is no such thing in scripture as pretribulation rapture, but rather, post tribulation rapture.

WHOA!!!!

BACK THE TRUCK UP!!!!

This is exactly the kind of statement that perfectly illustrates the kind of pride and arrogance that some pre-trib folks exhibit -- as if 'pre-trib' were somehow the 'default' in scripture that never needs to be "proven" while anything that might be considered contrary to it has the full burden of proof upon it.

That kind of post tells me you need to grow up so that you are able to speak then years in the future as an adult.

Just remember that a 'child' who understands the truth is better than an 'adult' who is deceived by his/her own pride.

 

[GaryA]

The question one should answer is if God wanted to save everyone would he deliberately hide an important teaching like the second coming by wrapping it up in complex interpretations and then leaving it for 2000 plus years before anyone could understand it. By ''understanding'' it seems according to some of these postings it requires a very good knowledge of Hebrew, Greek and an advanced
education of English Grammar plus a special relationship with the Holy Spirit coupled with an active imagination.

Especially the "active imagination" part . . .

 

[GaryA]

How shall one refer to someone who becomes offended at the very suggestion that the pre-trib rapture theory may be false?

In large part (not 100%, but certainly a majority), this has been my experience IRL when dealing with pre-trib folks.

 

[GaryA]

3) there are no postrib rapture verses stating or indicating a postrib rapture or resurrection of belivers.

Sure there are...

What is an example of a postrib rapture verse?

The best example that comes to mind is:

Matthew 24:31

And - yes - it is absolutely most definitely talking about the 'rapture' event.

 

[GaryA]

Jesus said that after the Tribulation the events surrounding his second coming would happen. Why does it seem so difficult to believe him?

A very good question indeed!

 

[Jackson123]

Hosea 12:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

The Rabbis believe patterns and models are Prophecy.

We have a perfect model of judgement with Noah's flood.

We had those raptured BEFORE tribulation. (ENOCH) - Equating to the Church

We had those preserved THROUGH tribulation (NOAH AND HIS FAMILY) Equating to those who will become believers during the Great Tribulation.

We had those perishing in the tribulation and judgement in the flood. (THE REST OF MANKIND) Equating to the rest of mankind in the Great Tribulation and judgement.


I'd like also ask you to reflect on WHERE the 7 Church lampstands at the start of the Great Tribulation?

I think Paul talk to all Christian before rapture that the rapture will happen after man of sin or tribulation.

He warn people that think the rapture already come, it is wrong, rapture come after tribulation. Paul not say only people that repent during tribulation experience tribulation

Paul say simple thing.

Rapture happen after man of sin or tribulation, or no rapture before tribulation

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;