Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

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Jan 17, 2020
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#41
God abolished circumcision for the Church, the body of Christ. When the body of Christ is caught up, the Lord turns His attention back Israel, God's physical people.
The Church is Israel. Not the biblically uncircumcised Jews.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#42
The Church is Israel. Not the biblically uncircumcised Jews.
Spiritual Israel, not physical. God has not forgotten His promises to the physical people Israel. Has God changed His mind?

Also, this 1,000 year reign is physically on earth.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. PHYSICAL
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. A PHYSICAL ATTACK
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#43
Christ is reigning for those thousand years from Jerusalem, the throne of David. It's physical. Satan attacks the physical kingdom.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. PHYSICAL
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. A PHYSICAL ATTACK
Christ reigns now on David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. Proof?

“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

David is still sleeping with his fathers.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#44
Spiritual Israel, not physical. God has not forgotten His promises to the physical people Israel. Has God changed His mind?

Also, this 1,000 year reign is physically on earth.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. PHYSICAL
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. A PHYSICAL ATTACK
No circumcision = no physical Israel in the biblical sense.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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#45
The 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth mentioned in Revelation 20 will happen literally. That's what the scripture plainly says.

Afterwards comes the new heaven and the new earth (Revelation 21).

I do not see the scriptures throwing a dark light on these events, they are plain.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#46
The 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth mentioned in Revelation 20 will happen literally. That's what the scripture plainly says.

Afterwards comes the new heaven and the new earth (Revelation 21).

I do not see the scriptures throwing a dark light on these events, they are plain.
Jesus refutes a physical kingdom of the future. If you begin with that. you might understand Revelation 20.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#47
God abolished circumcision leaving nothing to make one a physical member of Israel.
The way I understand.It did not make one a physical member of Israel as a born again name.

It was a shadow that pointed ahead to the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow. The opening of the graves and the resurrection gate. Suffering as our bloody husband as shown in the parable of Exodus 4. The revealing of the first born like that parable of Isaiah 53:6. two working as one. Or like the parable of Abraham and Issac on the mountain. The gospel hid

Because Moses, the law giver used to represent the letter . .death . He did not honor God. God was to kill Moses's first born . The Holy Spirit used a gentile like with Ruth to reconcile the curse and repent.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. Exodus 4: 22-26

Twice to emphasize as a double portion he uses "bloody husband" to represent the suffering of Christ before hand and the glory of faith the salvation of our new souls.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:11

I would offer it was the Spirit of Christ working in Zipporah (leaping bird) that moved her to perform the good pleasure of God. A picture of us casting our anxiety at his feet the gospel
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#48
The nations in the New Heaven and earth. Nations of the world are destroyed by fire on the last day. Nations = ethnos = gentiles not jus Jews.
What are you talking about? I never said anything about just Jews??
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#49
What are you talking about? I never said anything about just Jews??
If all the nations dissolve in fire on the last day, who else could it be?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#50
The way I understand.It did not make one a physical member of Israel as a born again name.

It was a shadow that pointed ahead to the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow. The opening of the graves and the resurrection gate. Suffering as our bloody husband as shown in the parable of Exodus 4. The revealing of the first born like that parable of Isaiah 53:6. two working as one. Or like the parable of Abraham and Issac on the mountain. The gospel hid

Because Moses, the law giver used to represent the letter . .death . He did not honor God. God was to kill Moses's first born . The Holy Spirit used a gentile like with Ruth to reconcile the curse and repent.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. Exodus 4: 22-26

Twice to emphasize as a double portion he uses "bloody husband" to represent the suffering of Christ before hand and the glory of faith the salvation of our new souls.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:11

I would offer it was the Spirit of Christ working in Zipporah (leaping bird) that moved her to perform the good pleasure of God. A picture of us casting our anxiety at his feet the gospel
Circumcision made one a physical member of Abraham's covenant seed/Israel.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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#51
Jesus refutes a physical kingdom of the future.
Jesus refuted that his kingdom was of this world before the death resurrection.

He never told Pilate that my future kingdom was not of this world. He was plainly referring to current events, not future.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#52
Jesus refuted that his kingdom was of this world before the death resurrection.

He never told Pilate that my future kingdom was not of this world. He was plainly referring to current events, not future.
Many other passages indicate he spoke of the future. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. It comes without observation. Only the born again can see it, etc.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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#53
Many other passages indicate he spoke of the future
Christs' 1,000 reign on earth will happen after the seventh trumpet is sounded:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the the kingdoms our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. REVELATION 11:15. The phrase at the end "forever and ever" are not in conflict with the 1,000 years mentioned, because he will continue to reign even after the thousand years.

But he is waiting at the right hand of God until his enemies be made his footstool (Hebrews 10:12-13), then he will come down to gather his elect and reign with them on earth for 1,000 years. Then after the 1,000 years:

Then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all (1 CORINTHIANS 15:28).

Here's what Jesus told Pilate:

My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from this place (JOHN 18:36). Notice he said NOW. Which means later it will.

Regarding the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom"; This is correct. Which is why the elect who died for not receiving the mark, and those who survived without getting the mark, meet the Lord in the air, and at the twinkling of an eye are changed at the last trump to come with him to reign on the earth. (1 CORINTHIANS 15:52; REVELATION 11:15; REVELATION 20:4).
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#54
Jesus refuted all millennial theories in the gospels. Premillennialism/Dispensationalism comes from the Pharisee's millennial teachings and worse. If you can find one scripture in the gospels or epistles that teach a future physical kingdom, I'll retract this claim. But Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual, now present, and only the born again can see it.
Challenge accepted. Luke 1: 32

The Angel Gabriel promised Mary her Son would sit on King David’s throne. King David NEVER ruled in Heaven or in Spirit. He ruled a physical Kingdom on planet Earth. Jesus has yet to sit on King David’s throne.

Now either God lied through Gabriel, or you must keep your promise WITHOUT equivocating, and retract your claim.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#55
Challenge accepted. Luke 1: 32

The Angel Gabriel promised Mary her Son would sit on King David’s throne. King David NEVER ruled in Heaven or in Spirit. He ruled a physical Kingdom on planet Earth. Jesus has yet to sit on King David’s throne.

Now either God lied through Gabriel, or you must keep your promise WITHOUT equivocating, and retract your claim.
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

The kingdom exists since Christ's first advent before the resurrection on the last day, while David sleeps with his fathers.

Paul says;
“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” 1 Corinthians 15:25–26 (KJV 1900)
= he must rein until the resurrection on the last day.

Peter says;

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” Acts 2:30–31 (KJV 1900)

“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.” Acts 15:14–18 (KJV 1900)
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#56
Christs' 1,000 reign on earth will happen after the seventh trumpet is sounded:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the the kingdoms our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. REVELATION 11:15. The phrase at the end "forever and ever" are not in conflict with the 1,000 years mentioned, because he will continue to reign even after the thousand years.

But he is waiting at the right hand of God until his enemies be made his footstool (Hebrews 10:12-13), then he will come down to gather his elect and reign with them on earth for 1,000 years. Then after the 1,000 years:

Then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all (1 CORINTHIANS 15:28).

Here's what Jesus told Pilate:

My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from this place (JOHN 18:36). Notice he said NOW. Which means later it will.

Regarding the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom"; This is correct. Which is why the elect who died for not receiving the mark, and those who survived without getting the mark, meet the Lord in the air, and at the twinkling of an eye are changed at the last trump to come with him to reign on the earth. (1 CORINTHIANS 15:52; REVELATION 11:15; REVELATION 20:4).
It's happening now.
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

The kingdom exists since Christ's first advent before the resurrection on the last day, while David sleeps with his fathers.

Paul says;
“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” 1 Corinthians 15:25–26 (KJV 1900)
= he must rein until the resurrection on the last day.

Peter says;

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” Acts 2:30–31 (KJV 1900)

“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.” Acts 15:14–18 (KJV 1900)
 
Feb 29, 2020
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#57
The kingdom exists since Christ's first advent before the resurrection on the last day, while David sleeps with his fathers.
But why would the voices in heaven say the following (in the verse below), if it's already happened?

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the the kingdoms our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. REVELATION 11:15.

The fact that Christ came as a prophecy to sit on David's throne can still refer to a future literal throne on earth. Making this a future event past the resurrection doesn't contradict the prophecy.

Also:

When they [the disciples] therefore were come together, they asked him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power (Acts 1:6-7).

Why didn't he tell them it has already happened in the Spirit?

And notice also that he didn't specify which kingdom, God or heaven (because there is no difference).
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#58
I believe every eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They claim the Kingdom of God is physical and not spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes some Amillennialists, all Postmillennialists, and all Premillennialists who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting. Not merely 1000 years long. That it would be while David is buried, before the resurrection on the last day.

“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

Some Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but err by saying it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.

The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.

Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns. A Christianized Taliban of sorts.

But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.
Good post. (y)
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#59
But why would the voices in heaven say the following (in the verse below), if it's already happened?

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the the kingdoms our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. REVELATION 11:15.

The fact that Christ came as a prophecy to sit on David's throne can still refer to a future literal throne on earth. Making this a future event past the resurrection doesn't contradict the prophecy.

Also:

When they [the disciples] therefore were come together, they asked him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power (Acts 1:6-7).

Why didn't he tell them it has already happened in the Spirit?

And notice also that he didn't specify which kingdom, God or heaven (because there is no difference).
All of the judgements culminate at the end of the world. And the nations end in fire.

Consider David's throne in the NT.

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

The kingdom exists since Christ's first advent before the resurrection on the last day, while David sleeps with his fathers.

Paul says;
“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” 1 Corinthians 15:25–26 (KJV 1900)
= he must rein until the resurrection on the last day.

Peter says;

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” Acts 2:30–31 (KJV 1900)

“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.” Acts 15:14–18 (KJV 1900)
 
Feb 29, 2020
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#60
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)
Okay, I got that.

But where in this verse is it indicated when he would establish his throne?

Obviously there was a huge gap of time between David dying and Christ's birth.

Is it also possible that there would be a huge gap between his birth and his kingdom/throne being established as well?