The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 4, 2020
1,506
266
83
66
washburn Tn
Like I say, No flesh and blood enter the kingdom of heaven. But not of that verse you quote say 1000 years kingdom is not oN earth

Isiah 65

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.y

What do you think These verses talking about

There Will be a time where most people live longer that 100 years, and If people die at 100 years old consider accursed

Where this even happen. In heaven? No my friend, in heaven No body die

It happen oN earth.

Long before isiah In time of Adam man live for thousand years, but after isiah, It not happen, but It Will happen

When It happen?

Read the whole story of the bible than you Will know It happen in the 1000 years kingdom.

It not happen yet.

Read verse 25

Lion Will Eat straw, can show me in the history lion Eat straw?

No because this story never happen yet, It Will happen in the future, It Will happen in the 1000 years kingdom
In The 1000 years reign, GODs saints will be in Heaven, There will be no one on Earth alive, But Satan & his wicked angels , this will be the spiritual chain that Satan is bound by , NO one here alive for him to temp ,JESUS will slay the wicked by the Brightness OF HIS coming, MAT 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; Then GODs saints will go up in the air, and go to Heaven For a 1000 years, After the 1000 years, The New Jerusalem will Come down from Heaven, With the saints in the City, God will raise all the dead lost, and Satan will deceive them, And get them to attack the city, And the BIBLE says that Fire will come From GOD out of Heaven and devour them, REV 20:9 They Have died the second DEATH,
And They will be brought to ashes upon the ground, And Satan will be ashes too, Then the righteous will tread on the wicked ashes just like MALACHI 4:1-3 tells us they will, And Satan will be brought to ashes like Ezekiel 28:18,19, tells us ,
 
Jan 4, 2020
1,506
266
83
66
washburn Tn
Like I say, No flesh and blood enter the kingdom of heaven. But not of that verse you quote say 1000 years kingdom is not oN earth

Isiah 65

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.y

What do you think These verses talking about

There Will be a time where most people live longer that 100 years, and If people die at 100 years old consider accursed

Where this even happen. In heaven? No my friend, in heaven No body die

It happen oN earth.

Long before isiah In time of Adam man live for thousand years, but after isiah, It not happen, but It Will happen

When It happen?

Read the whole story of the bible than you Will know It happen in the 1000 years kingdom.

It not happen yet.

Read verse 25

Lion Will Eat straw, can show me in the history lion Eat straw?

No because this story never happen yet, It Will happen in the future, It Will happen in the 1000 years kingdom
After the New Jerusalem comes down to earth, And the wicked are resurrected, For their punishment. And they are brought to ashes, No body will ever die on earth ever again . And JESUS's Kingdom will there be no END,
 
Jan 4, 2020
1,506
266
83
66
washburn Tn
I study the bible, I know Jesus teaching about kingdom of heaven, No flesh body can enter.

But 1000 years kingdom is not in heaven, brother
When JESUS comes Back, HE will slay the wicked by the brightness of HIS coming First like MAT 13:30 tells us, And the Dead in CHRIST, Will go up and meat HIM in THE clouds, Then those that are alive and remain will go up and meat HIM in the AIR, and go to HEAVEN, WHEN HE comes HE will NOT come down on the Ground, Just like THESS 4:16 & 17 tells us, THE BIBLE IS RIGHT, Then the wick is binded in bondles First, that leaves no one alive on earth, But Satan & his evil angels, NO one on earth to temp, This will be the spiritual chain that he will be bound by, GOD bless as HE sees fit
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
“Distinctions have been drawn by certain exceedingly wise men (measured by their own estimate of themselves), between the people of God who lived before the coming of Christ, and those who lived afterwards. We have even heard it asserted that those who lived before the coming of Christ do not belong to the church of God!

We never know what we shall hear next, and perhaps it is a mercy that these absurdities are revealed at one time, in order that we may be able to endure their stupidity without dying of amazement. Why, every child of God in every place stands on the same footing; the Lord has not some children best beloved, some second-rate offspring, and others whom he hardly cares about.

These who saw Christ’s day before it came, had a great difference as to what they knew, and perhaps in the same measure a difference as to what they enjoyed while on earth meditating upon Christ; but they were all washed in the same blood, all redeemed with the same ransom price, and made members of the same body.

Israel in the covenant of grace is not natural Israel, but all believers in all ages. Before the first advent, all the types and shadows all pointed one way —they pointed to Christ, and to him all the saints looked with hope. Those who lived before Christ were not saved with a different salvation to that which shall come to us. They exercised faith as we must; that faith struggled as ours struggles, and that faith obtained its reward as ours shall”

Charles Spurgeon
Devotional Classics of C H Spurgeon, p122
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
The MILLENNIUM: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10840-millennium
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram

Table of Contents

Messianic Period an Interregnum.

The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.



So it is no wonder it found its way into the first century Church comprised mainly of Jews.



But in time, the church condemned it as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed


We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.

And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.



“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned

Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,

Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of amillennialism (Clement of

Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's

explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive

explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]



Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.



Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Council_of_Ephesus&oldid=921743450"
Can't call the words "thousand years" heresy. It would seem that many of the different end time theories . have differences . And amillennialism no literal thousand is no different . The Catholic's amil position and the Protestant's have differences.

What position are you trusting today?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
When JESUS comes Back, HE will slay the wicked by the brightness of HIS coming First like MAT 13:30 tells us, And the Dead in CHRIST, Will go up and meat HIM in THE clouds, Then those that are alive and remain will go up and meat HIM in the AIR, and go to HEAVEN, WHEN HE comes HE will NOT come down on the Ground, Just like THESS 4:16 & 17 tells us, THE BIBLE IS RIGHT, Then the wick is binded in bondles First, that leaves no one alive on earth, But Satan & his evil angels, NO one on earth to temp, This will be the spiritual chain that he will be bound by, GOD bless as HE sees fit
Rev 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Where These people reign with Jesus for thausand years in verse 4
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Rev 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Where These people reign with Jesus for thausand years in verse 4

They are still reigning. The thousand years is the whole last days period a unknown . We are not of the number, neither days no people

We walk by faith (the unseen ) it provides the eternal understanding.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Can't call the words "thousand years" heresy. It would seem that many of the different end time theories . have differences . And amillennialism no literal thousand is no different . The Catholic's amil position and the Protestant's have differences.

What position are you trusting today?
The 1000 years = Satan's binding. They are not the kingdom. When the 1000 years end, Satan is loosed and attacks the kingdom.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
I recommend studying this audio set on amillennialism.

https://www.monergism.com/legacy/mt/mp3/amillennialism-101-mp3-series-kim-riddlebarger

By the way, most people on this forum will be dispensationalists, whether they know what the word means or not.

It is the default teaching of Pentecostals, charismatics and churches with similar beliefs, along with "Bible churches".

These people don't even think about any other option, because they have been indoctrinated into premillennial dispensationalism. You can pretty well tell a dispy because he believes Israel and the Church are two distinct peoples of God, with different trajectories. Additionally, many of them are pretribulation rapture guys.

Some of them will accuse you of believing false doctrines and being Anti-Semitical and Roman Catholic sympathizers if they know you are not a dispensationalist.

Their mentality is very similar to the cult that I belonged to, long ago. I don't claim they are a cult but they certainly behave like the cult in some ways.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
They are still reigning. The thousand years is the whole last days period a unknown . We are not of the number, neither days no people

We walk by faith (the unseen ) it provides the eternal understanding.
So you believe we are in the thausand years kingdom now?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
So you believe we are in the thausand years kingdom now?
Correct.

This position is called amillennialism.

The position teaches that Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom at his first coming, and consummates it at his second coming.

Then, the eternal state begins.

Satan is restrained in the sense that he is unable to totally prevent the gospel from being proclaimed, whereas before the nations (a phrase commonly referring to Gentiles) were not able to come to faith. He will be loosed right at the end again, in order to deceive the nations into fullscale rebellion. As a result, they will fight against Jesus at his coming.

I find this much more in line with all of Scripture, as opposed to the dispensationalist view. If you read the Gospels and epistles, they portray Jesus as judging all mankind at his coming, and not at some later point of time. Additionally, the resurrection is the point where death is defeated. It doesn't continue to reign on earth after Jesus returns.

I know dispensationalists do all kinds of Scriptural gymnastics to deny this, but they are simply not coherent. And, while they come close to denying the faith of others who disregard their view, I will simply say they are mistaken and somewhat cultic.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,620
577
113
Forgive me but this is just silly. Well if we search we find not ALL in history rejected it. Just found some that did and ran with it as if THAT was the saying, the belief of the day. It was not.

I always read it as .. Christ comes.. sheep and goats.. Satan gets chained, tossed in the bottomless pit and Christ rules then after 1000y Satan is loosed. How long is 1000y? Seems to me = Millennium.

" He shut it and locked him in it. He could not fool the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were completed. After this he must be free for awhile. "
" And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

I must be missing something. Well says "and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years". At the same exact time Satan is in the pit chained.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,090
1,754
113
These people don't even think about any other option, because they have been indoctrinated into premillennial dispensationalism. You can pretty well tell a dispy because he believes Israel and the Church are two distinct peoples of God, with different trajectories. Additionally, many of them are pretribulation rapture guys.
How is any other position possible considering Paul's wording and teaching in Romans 11? Even reasonable supercessionists throughout history see the conversion of the Jewish people in the passage. If scripture interprets scripture, what scripture can you use to justify the idea that the church is Israel... without assuming that when you read a passage that does not state it. Where is the on-ramp to the highway of circular reasoning?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
How is any other position possible considering Paul's wording and teaching in Romans 11? Even reasonable supercessionists throughout history see the conversion of the Jewish people in the passage. If scripture interprets scripture, what scripture can you use to justify the idea that the church is Israel... without assuming that when you read a passage that does not state it. Where is the on-ramp to the highway of circular reasoning?
First, most Reformed people believe that there will be a massive and successful evangelism of Israelites at the end of the age, just prior to the return of Jesus. This does not necessitate a millennial kingdom as dispensationalists believe. Nor will sin and death continue to play a role, as dispensationalists believe. Sin and death are defeated at the return of Christ. The Millennium doctrine of dispensationalists teaches otherwise. They propose that there is another dispensation where sin and death will continue to exist, but where the Curse is mostly lifted, except for a period at the end. This is unbiblical.

Second, there are many Scriptures which indicate that the Church is the fulfillment of the type of ancient Israel. The one people of God are no longer Israelites, but they are those people who are joined to Christ, who is the perfect Israel. He is the one who defeats Satan in the wilderness, unlike Israel who succumbs to Satan in the wilderness. He is the one who leads his people out of the slavery of this world, unlike Israel, who was supposed to lead the nations out of slavery through their positive example, but they did not.

Christ is the true Israelite, and he is the one who is perfectly obedient, fulfilling the conditions of the Mosaic Covenant. And, all those joined to him are Israelites and sons of Abraham.

I suggest you read Ephesians 2, where it says there is now only one man, Jew and Gentile, in Christ. And, Galatians 3, which shows that believers are sons of Abraham. And, Galatians 6 as well, where the Israel of God is described. And I Peter 2, where the Church is described in the same language as ancient Israel in Exodus 19. And 1 Corinthians 10, which uses the phrase "Israel after the flesh" (this infers that there is an Israel after the Spirit), as being negative examples for believers.

To be honest, I am surprised that dispensationalists cannot see these clear teachings in the NT. In fact, some go so far as to claim that the New Covenant, including regeneration, does not apply to the Church age, because those prophecies were written only to Israel.

Dispensationalism destroys any clear, coherent message of Scripture, and projects an incoherent view of the storyline of the Bible.

Third, I am guessing that your "explicit statement" remark is some way of creating the opportunity to wriggle out of this through dispensationalist tomfoolery. God expects us to think, and the OT communicates in a different way than simple didactic teaching. It communicates in shadows and types. Genres of literature are important to consider, too. The dispensationalist is well known for using literalism in an awkward, incorrect manner (I distinguish between "literal" and "literalism", with the latter interpretative method as being inconsiderate of the genre of the literature).

Fourth, look at the company dispensationalism keeps. It is dominant largely because of the evangelistic efforts of charismatics and Pentecostals. None are known for scholarship. They are known for rolling in the floor, babbling incoherently, claiming to be prophets and apostles, flopping around like fish, etcetera. It is true that there are a handful of Reformed people like John MacArthur who believe dispensationalism is true, though...but it is very dominant due largely to the influence of charismatics and Pentecostals. Also, I think that Independent Fundamentalist Baptists often teach it, and they are another group of clowns with their KJV Onlyism.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
How is any other position possible considering Paul's wording and teaching in Romans 11? Even reasonable supercessionists throughout history see the conversion of the Jewish people in the passage. If scripture interprets scripture, what scripture can you use to justify the idea that the church is Israel... without assuming that when you read a passage that does not state it. Where is the on-ramp to the highway of circular reasoning?
By the way, if someone doesn't understand how Scripture teaches in types and shadows, they really need to study hermeneutics.

The types and shadows are clear. And, dispensationalists will only accept a type and shadow if it is directly identified in Scripture, which limits their ability to understand the Bible as a whole. In fact, I think dispensationalism is one of the major causes of cults in the USA.

Dispensationalists are not cultists in a direct sense, but they have promoted an ignorant hermeneutical approach that cults have capitalized upon.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Forgive me but this is just silly. Well if we search we find not ALL in history rejected it. Just found some that did and ran with it as if THAT was the saying, the belief of the day. It was not.

I always read it as .. Christ comes.. sheep and goats.. Satan gets chained, tossed in the bottomless pit and Christ rules then after 1000y Satan is loosed. How long is 1000y? Seems to me = Millennium.

" He shut it and locked him in it. He could not fool the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were completed. After this he must be free for awhile. "
" And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

I must be missing something. Well says "and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years". At the same exact time Satan is in the pit chained.
Satan was restrained at Jesus' coming in the sense that he is unable to deceive the nations. The phrase "the nations" infers the Gentiles. He is unable to totally deceive the nations, and is unable to keep the Gospel from going forward, and reaching the elect.

Just prior to Jesus' coming, he will be released and allowed to cause havoc.

The righteous dead are ruling with Christ. Those who are martyred are highly exalted in this manner. They are actually ruling with Christ. So, their death was simply stepping into this realm.

I suggest the book "A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger in this regard. For those indoctrinated in premillennial dispensationalism, it is a great book to read. Whether you agree or not, you will know the data that the other side brings to the table.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
I doubt most premillennial dispensationalists will put forth one bit of effort to understand the other three major millennial systems. Maybe one out of 10 has read a book by an amillennial person, in order to determine whether the argument is reasonable.

The rest have basically heard some dispensationalist pastor all their lives, so they simply assume it is the correct worldview.

And, they fight like mad to maintain it.

Again, I commend Kim Riddlebarger's book on this topic. It will open your eyes to the massive gaping holes in dispensationalism if you read it.

There's some other good books, but I think his is the clearest.

Or..you can go on playing "pin the tail on the AntiChrist" and reading your bible in one hand, and the newspaper in the other, as dispensationalists are fond of doing :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Forgive me but this is just silly. Well if we search we find not ALL in history rejected it. Just found some that did and ran with it as if THAT was the saying, the belief of the day. It was not.

I always read it as .. Christ comes.. sheep and goats.. Satan gets chained, tossed in the bottomless pit and Christ rules then after 1000y Satan is loosed. How long is 1000y? Seems to me = Millennium.

" He shut it and locked him in it. He could not fool the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were completed. After this he must be free for awhile. "
" And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

I must be missing something. Well says "and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years". At the same exact time Satan is in the pit chained.
Regarding being silly, it may seem like that to a dispensationalist, especially if he's been brought up blindly accepting their teachings.

It is similar to my position as a cult member in the past. I thought other Christians were idiots until I learned correct hermeneutics, and realized how the founder and pastors were distorting Scripture.

The same thing happens in the Church.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,491
12,951
113
I doubt most premillennial dispensationalists will put forth one bit of effort to understand the other three major millennial systems.
Do you dig around in garbage if you have access to clean materials?
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,724
832
113
44
Do you dig around in garbage if you have access to clean materials?
honestly this is a very close minded stance, I wouldn't phrase it like that, but yes I learn what opposing views actually believe so I'm not just attacking straw men when speaking with them trying to proclaim the truth. You know what? I'm even crazy enough to think that I might even learn something when seeing things from more than just my perspective, and even if not I owe them the respect of addressing their misunderstandings in truth directly, again not attacking things they don't even believe, or things I was told "that group" holds to. To approach it this way is how you keep yourself ignorant and blind. (this is not calling you "ignorant and/or blind", just to make sure that is very clear, I'm saying to cut yourself off from anything outside what you know or accept, is the way to do this)