Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

[Dave-L]

only if you could prove that with the word of God LOL which you have not

Paul stopped healing in the Epistles

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).

But as James says, the prayer of faith heals the sick. We see this rarely but even so, it happens.

 

[Dave-L]

Do you have a memory loss problem?

I have often quoted to you where Timothy had a gift a received through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. Paul said they that seemed to be somewhat added nothing to him. He had spiritual gifts. The only hands we know were laid on him were the hands of Ananias about the time he was healed of blindness, and the hands of the 'prophets and teachers' whose names are listed in Acts 13 who were in Antioch. After they did this, scripture begins to refer to him and Barnabas as 'apostles.'

There were also men performing excorcism, which Jesus called a sign/miracle without the laying on of hands of the apostles, and many prophets had been able to prophesy before the apostles were born.

Hebrews 2:4 does not say that all of those people who heard the Lord were the twelve apostles or that the apostles had laid hands on all of them.

“Because of this I remind you [Timothy] to rekindle God’s gift that you possess through the laying on of my [Paul's] hands.” 2 Timothy 1:6 (NET)

 

[Dave-L]

You wanted it too but why, what was your motive Dave ? Or rather why not you ?

After God saved me I blindly walked into Pentecostalism. After several years the Lord provided a way out. So I feel I owe it to others who are trapped in the same persuasion to at least hear what I learned about the movement during and after my escape.

 

[notuptome]

we don't drool and it is clear you do not know how to read the Biblical Contextually Because 1 cor 13: 8-10 has nothing to do with the Canon of scripture YOU interjected that into the chapter. The you pull some scripture from the old to again take out of context two verses in one chapter of all the New Testament. LOL it so sad and frankly unbiblical. You have demonstrated more babbling of Gods word than most Pentecostal you claim do. LOL.

Pure opinion based on personal bias.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

wrong you can not prove that in the word of God. The word of God has always been perfect from GEN to REV. Paul did not have a new testament you read from. You area control freak and in error.

Opinion not based on the evidence found in scripture. While Gods word has always been like God perfect the perfect in this passage has to do with complete. the word of God was not yet complete at this point in time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

wrong you have scriptures to support that claim LOL.

Opinion that makes no sense. Are you ok?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The signs that follow after or follow the finished work of Christ working in us are metaphors in that parable .A new tongue as desire to preach the gospel. The word of God a antidote against the poison of false prophecy and false apostles.

there are no words to describe the confusing way you do not understand scripture

cessationists are one thing...I can actually agree with them on alot of other things

but what you come up with? it's abuse of scripture and English

I won't be responding to you either. it hurts to even try to make sense out of whatever it is you believe

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Those are quite a raft of hard-hearted condamnations. Nevertheless, I stand by my claim of heartfelt sincerety in making my petition and plea to any and all Pentecostals: give God glory and fulfill your duty and publish and broadcast all signs and miracles for the sake of the Body and Christ.

I don't care what you stand by

anyone can go back into older threads read what you have written

if you don't like how people perceive you, then don't address them like they are fools and do not know what you are really up to

you are one of the most insulting people here...and when someone calls you on it, you want to tell them they are not acting like a Christian

don't hide behind God with your religious speak either. it's all just smoke IMO

maybe just find people who do not know you yet

 

[7seasrekeyed]

he's ridiculous

I do not at all agree with this type of thing

this is the type of thing that creates doubt and suggests Christians are koo koo

yes I said that

 

[Absolutely]

I think you lack an understanding of the ultimate healing, which occurs at the resurrection. The curse is totally reversed at Jesus' return. This is contrary to the teachings of dispensationalists, of which charismatics/Pentecostals generally belong to.

So, in one sense, I could say healing is GUARANTEED due to the hope of the resurrection, regardless of whether it occurs now or not. The resurrected body will be healed totally.

And, that is part of Jesus' work on the cross, of redeeming all creation to himself. Cessationalists believe this totally.

Your view, though, leaves place for someone to claim that you lack faith because you are not healed. Mine does not.

And, I find it to be disgusting actually. I know a lady who was very faithful and suffered multiple incidences of cancer. She likely died as the result of one of these events. She was a very faithful woman who was always very cheerful and devoted to God. She also had a son who was decapitated in an accident, and a grandchild who choked to death in her care from pneumonia (she was babysitting and wasn't aware he was that sick).

Various Pentecostals and Charismatics would be thinking, in the back of their minds, what secret sins this woman had. Well, I don't think any more than anyone else, and I think she was a great deal more devoted than the vast majority of THEM.

Faith is largely about continuing onward in the faith despite how circumstances look. It isn't about God giving you everything you want, including physical healing. Folks need to read Hebrews 11 and meditate on it before claiming such things.

And, as I said, these types of false doctrines make me retch.

You basically made all that up in your head.
100% conjecture.

 

[cv5]

They can't because, as you have stated, the age of signs and wonders have passed, since the Gospel of the Kingdom is no longer to be preached today. The nation Israel has rejected their Messiah.

Only after the rapture, when the Gospel of Kingdom will be restarted, then we can see signs and wonders.

Whether the sign gifts have fully ceased God only knows. I agree however that mighty wonders ARE returning. After the Rapture. With a vengeance. Literally.

 

[Guojing]

Whether the sign gifts have fully ceased God only knows. I agree however that mighty wonders ARE returning. After the Rapture. With a vengeance. Literally.

Revelations 11 already stated clearly the 2 witnesses will perform signs and wonders that Moses and Elijah were well known for.

 

[CS1]

Paul stopped healing in the Epistles

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).

But as James says, the prayer of faith heals the sick. We see this rarely but even so, it happens.

You don't know that, Mr. "All-Knowing One ". If Paul was not used by God for healing during his time in prison. One must assume that but what we do know is not all the Apostles did was recorded n the book of Acts many times it is stated as it was with Jesus

They went out and healed many.

Please this is ridiculous

 

[Dave-L]

You don't know that, Mr. "All-Knowing One ". If Paul was not used by God for healing during his time in prison. One must assume that but what we do know is not all the Apostles did was recorded n the book of Acts many times it is stated as it was with Jesus

They went out and healed many.

Please this is ridiculous

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).

 

[CS1]

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).

this is the greatest example of what is known as Eisogesies' improper biblical interpretation. Reading into the word of God that what one wants it to say, instead of drawing out the context as it was mention be.
a bunch of scriptures taken out of context from four different letters of Paul.

some kind allegorizing of scriptures.

 

[Dave-L]

this is the greatest example of what is known as Eisogesies' improper biblical interpretation. Reading into the word of God that what one wants it to say, instead of drawing out the context as it was mention be.
a bunch of scriptures taken out of context from four different letters of Paul.

some kind allegorizing of scriptures.

Notice I did not add one interpretation to those scriptures. They show Paul no longer performing the signs and wonders he did in Acts.

 

[presidente]

Let's stick strictly with the topic of the gifts of healing, tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy.

I think you mentioned that there was proof of these gifts in the apostolic error up until the 3rd century.

If I am correct in your comments, then let me ask the following:

1. what evidence past the apostolic era?
2. what about between the third century until the 1800's?

If you would do a little research, there are quite a bit of references to this sort of thing. I am no expert in that area, but I'll share a few things from my recollections of what I have studied.

If you point me to Montanists, they were heretical. Montanus said "I am the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit". What kind of nut says that?

Btw, what is your quote for that? But if he said, "Thus saith the Lord" before it, it sounds a little less nutty, I suppose. Moses said, "I am the LORD thy God...." quoting the Lord God. I wonder if the assertion that Montanus called himself the Paraklete was misinterpreted, if he'd say "The Paraklete says' imitating, along the lines of Agabus saying, "Thus saith the Holy Ghost." The 'Montanist' 'revival' in the west was accepted for a time. In the east, they may have continued to remain a part of the larger chruch, but not in the east. They say Montanus set up rival bishops, which may be the reason the movement was considered a schism in the east early on. Most of what was written about Montanus was written by his critics. Tertullian became a Montanist at some point, and some of his works survive. One of the beliefs Tertullian defended was forbidding widows and widowers to marry. I don't look at Montanism as something orthodox. But the church actually accepted the gift of prophecy

As a teen, I read the first half of Eusebius 'Ecclesiastical History'. In it, he deals with the Montanist controversy and numerous other topics. His fourth century work compiles a number of quotes and traditions from the centuries prior. Regarding Montanism, he records a number of quotes form his contemporaries affirming the gift of prophecy, but rejecting Montanus. After Montanus, Priscilla, and Maximilla died, there was a debate between a Christian and a Montanist. The Montanist argued that prophecy had ceased with them. But the Christian said that prophecy remained in the church, because the apostle said prophecy would continue until the Lord returned. This could have been a debate alluding to I Corinthians 13. Montanists may have been the first cessationists. They may have thought that Montanus or his teachings were 'that which is perfect.' The church did not interpret the passage that way, and I Corinthians 1:7 says, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Eusebius also contains some of Ireneaus' writings. Ireneaus, who, probably when he was quite young, knew Polycarp, was a missionary to Gaul in what is now France, and a church leader there. He wrote that he believed all churches should be able to raise the dead as his had through fasting and prayer. But he also wrote of brethren who had various gifts such as prophecy, tongues, foreknowledge, healing, etc. Ireneaus wrote a work entitled 'Against Heresies' in which he exposed many of the beliefs of various cults, many of which we would classify as 'Gnostic' today. In another work, he wrote about how rejecting prophecy was a characteristic of heresies. He lived and wrote around 200 AD, as did Tertullian.

Tertullian wrote an apology that made a similar point to Justin Martyrs' in the early 2nd century, that Christians cast demons out of people, even though the pagans recognized the spirits in these people as their gods. Jesus called casting out demons a miracle. Justin Martyr also wrote in his dialogue with Trypho, a Jew who struck up a conversation with him because he was dressed as a philospher, that his people had had prophets, but now the prophets were among the church (my wording, btw.)

The Shepherd of Hermas describes prophesying in the church in the 2nd century. No matter what you think of the work, it was read in some churches in the second century and shows that prophesying was still done during that time.

I have read (or read parts of) some books that tell a bit about spiritual gifts during the Ante-Nicene time period. I only had a chance to quickly read through parts of Burgess' _The Spirit and the Church: Antiquity_ at a friend's house back in the 1980's. He collects a lot of quotes from the so-called 'church father;s' (though One is your Father which is in heaven) writings and comments on them in his book. There are two other volumes that I have not seen, presumably about later stages of church history. I recall his writing that Athanasius had a reputation as a prophet and received a prophecy that settled an issue that he might have otherwise just decreed on as a bishop. _Evangelism in the Early Church_ by Michael Greene also deals with the role of supernatural gifts in evangelism in the first centuries of Christianity.

There are also a number of bloggers who have compiled quotes. It is easy to find lists of quotes affirming the use of spiritual gifts either doctrinally or affirming experience with them from the first centuries of Christianity.

I have also read about various historical figures who were influential in spreading the message of Christ around the world. Gregory was influential in evangelizing Armenia. He was also Ante-Nicene. The Armenian king converted before the Roman Empire legalized Christianity. Gregory was said to have evangelized the nation after being imprisoned (Gregory's father had allegedly been involved in the plot to kill the king's father.) The king's sister released him after the king was demonized and then Gregory cast out the demon. Jesus called casting out a demon in his name a miracle.

Many healings and miracles are attributed to St. Martin of Tours. His life was recorded by someone who knew him personally, not a hagiophrapher decades or centuries later. Many miracles are also attributed to St. Patrick, numerous healings and resurrections from the dead. The two works of his that historians recognize as legitimate tell some supernatural experiences, seeing a vision that led him to free Ireland, where he worked as a slave after being captured, and a supernatural voice telling him to return. He'd become a presbyter after he'd returned. His writings do not fit with cessationism. Historically, there are numerous accounts of visions, prophecies and healings. Francis of Assisi is said to have healed people, for example. I don't recall reading that the monk said he was prophesying, but it is said a monk told his mother that her three sons would be.... I forget the titles. I think it was one would be a duke, another a count, and the other would be a king. Since Baldwin I was crowned king of the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem, he ended up being a king. (A presumptuous title that his brother refused, but my geneaological research indicates he's an ancestor, so perhaps I should repent on his behalf.)

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox and other national churches have not been cessationist historically. Cessationism evolved in Protestantism over time. It is not based on scripture. There are those who try to squeeze some kind of argument out of I Corinthians 13 that does not fit the context. Others argue for it based on a set of anachronistic propositions about the role of scripture that cannot be supported by the scriptures themselves. I could not see any Biblical basis for your line of reasoning for cessationism in our discussion thus far. Are there scriptures that support your theory?

 

[presidente]

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).

Paul's infirmity in Galatians was early in his ministry. He took a trip to Galatia in early Acts 16. Since Lystra and Derbe were in the province of Galatian, we was probably visiting the churches there and other churches in that region. He probably got sick right before Acts 14, and somehow that led him to preach there. Maybe it kept him from journeying on.

But God used Paul to heal a lame man in Derbe, and later to do great miracles in Ephesus and to heal all the sick brought to him on an island. Sickness at one point in time did not mean that healing ceased or would not show up later. You have quoted verses that disprove the 'gradual decline' theory of spiritual gifts.

Cessationists tend to be rather bold about inventing doctrines scripture doesn't say by assuming their conclusion is right, and then trying to find loose 'evidence.' Scripture does not teach that healing through gifts gradually declined. But some cessationists want to believe that, so the select evidence and try to paint that picture. Scripture does not say that spiritual gifts were imparted exclusively through apostles hands, but does show occasions where they were imparted this way. Some cessationists ignore scriptures that show other ways God gives gifts and try to argue they only come through the hands of the apostles.

This is a reckless way of misusing scripture. If it doesn't teach it, it doesn't teach it.

 

[presidente]

Notice I did not add one interpretation to those scriptures. They show Paul no longer performing the signs and wonders he did in Acts.

That doesn't make sense, since Paul did miracles after his infirmity in Galatia.

They show that there were times people were sick, and times the apostles healed.

 

[presidente]

Here's where it seems like any sane person would realize that charismatic teaching is wrong.

There is not one single person who can do the same works as Jesus did when he walked on earth. It could apply to the Church as a whole in a limited manner. Or, perhaps what Jesus is saying is through union with Him, any miracle could be performed that corresponds with God's sovereign will. The problem is that God could simply perform the miracle himself without the person's involvement whatsoever.

What 'charismatic' is wrong? Jesus, who said the words? John for recording them? Or me for quoting them?

By the way, my point regarding that Scripture is that you applied it to the WRONG EVENT. I will go back and re-post the question. Go back and research the inference you made.

You'd have to give me a better clue than that. I don't know what scripture you are talking about. If you don't do that, I have no plans of trying to find an inference to something somewhere earlier in the thread. "Go find something in that haystack. I won't tell you what to look for."