Not By Works

[John146]

It's called searing the conscience. Happens just as you say - over time spent resisting and resisting the voice of God so that the spiritual callus on the ears becomes so great that His voice is no longer heard...aka "the Unpardonable Sin" and "Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost". Don't know why this is so foreign a concept to anyone reading the Bible with their eyes open.

The book is addressed to the Jews in the last days...taking the mark of the beast. This is not doctrine for the body of Christ. If one takes the mark, there is no more sacrifice for sin. He is already condemned to hell.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You seem to paint all OSAS believers with a broad brush based on one or two bad examples.

While I'm sure there are slight differences among them, OSAS believers as a whole either deliberately misinterpret or ignore altogether the many verses which contradict OSAS.

Such people may live the rest of their lives living like the devil, yet say to themselves in the back of their minds, "I'm saved and will always be saved simply because I recited a prayer at church years ago." That is insanity!

Agreed.

I've heard numerous works-salvationists...

What is a "works-salvationist"? Someone who believes salvation comes by works? I've never met a single person who believes such nonsense.

ALL false religions and cults strongly oppose OSAS and teach salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc.. yet 'claim' to be Christian.

"Salvation by Democratization" is not a thing - what does popular consensus have to do with determining what is truth? The Jewish leaders viewed Christianity as a cult, the leader of which would "take away both our place and our nation" if He was allowed to live. Let's stick to the Scriptures, shall we?

Those in the NOSAS camp are generally quick to unfairly label those in the OSAS camp as promoting a 'license to sin.'

That's exactly what lies at the core of OSAS. "I can do what I want and still go to heaven because what I do has nothing to do with where I'm going!" We who believe in Biblically defined salvation know that the only option open to believers when it comes to sin is "not my will, but Thy will". I've heard every excuse in the book for why church people justify continuing their sinful habits, from "God's gonna take it from me when He's ready" to "The Law was nailed to the Cross" to "Jesus kept the Law so I don't have to."

The just shall live by faith and those who draw back did not believe to the saving of the soul.

Wrong, because the Biblical concept of "sliding back" denotes a former period of "keeping up" - is not our Christian experience characterized as a "walk with God" in which we "follow" behind His leading?

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Amen. A heaven bound, spirit filled saint who returns to a life of sin cannot continue to "know" (means "to have an intimate relationship with") God, and if he does, he is a liar in His sight.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

I realize that many claim this verse means "Salvation doesn't change me, just God's opinion of the sin that remains in me" and I hope that is not your belief. Yes, there are actually people like my Uncle who told my dad that one night at a bar while they were both drinkin, smoking, cursing, and doing who knows what else, "If we both died right now, I'D go to heaven and YOU'D go to hell."

 

[Phoneman-777]

The word "sealed" means “to stamp for security or preservation......... "sealed with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE" (Ephesians 1:13).

"to stamp for security of preservation" is a subjective stretch of interpretation of that verse. My interpretation which is rooted in Romans 4:11 is spot on, for we are indeed "marked" with the Holy Spirit of promise as sure as the writer with the inkhorn in Ezekiel 8 "marked" ("sealed") those who sighed and cried over the abominations done in Israel.

Because God is the One doing the preserving and securing through the Holy Spirit based upon the work of the Son, the seal cannot be broken.

Let's not confuse Omnipotence with Compulsion. Yes, God will preserve us with power no enemy can overcome but on condition that we allow Him to do so. He is a Divine Gentleman who does not impose Himself where He is not welcome. That is why prayer is so important. When the devil stands to oppose God's intervention in the life of one of the devil's slaves, God simply points him to His saint bent over on his knees in intercessory prayer for that wretched one.

If anyone believes he can lose his salvation, then he is not trusting completely in the perfect, finished work of Christ.

Rather, anyone who believes that a saint cannot discard the free gift of salvation and walk away from God makes God guilty of theft...theft of our free will. Love that is taken by force is not love at all, it's "rape".

 

[Phoneman-777]

And the parable of the Unmerciful Servant does not at all refute OSAS.. you have to read to that into the parable as NOSAS people always do.

You're kidding, right? Right there in the parable, we see a man beg for mercy for forgiveness of his impossible debt, receive that forgiveness with no strings attached, exit singing "free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, free at last", go out free yet refuse to allow the character of his beneficent Lord to be manifested in him by his actions toward his fellowservant...and once again fall under the same former condemnation from which he was previously delivered!

Can we not see in the symbolism that the servant's Lord is God, the servant is mankind, the impossible debt is our debt of sin, the forgiveness bestowed upon him is that which we receive from Jesus, and that his ill treatment of his fellowservant is exactly the opposite of what we as believers are called to do in the Lord's prayer?

 

[Phoneman-777]

High time you stick to biblical narrative that works do not save and saved is saved not quasi saved.

So, who's claiming that works can save us? I sure don't. Jesus says in Luke that once we done everything perfectly for God, we are still "unprofitable servants". My problem is not knowing works can't save us..it's the OSAS crowd teaching that thoughts = works.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You have no assurance of eternal life. There may be a point in the future when you stop believing. 🤭

Friend, how can you make such a statement? Only God knows the heart. Judge a man's works as either right or wrong, but leave the judging of motives to God, lest we find ourselves taking the place of Jesus. There's a Greek word for taking the place of Jesus - "anti-Christos".

 

[John146]

Friend, how can you make such a statement? Only God knows the heart. Judge a man's works as either right or wrong, but leave the judging of motives to God, lest we find ourselves taking the place of Jesus. There's a Greek word for taking the place of Jesus - "anti-Christos".

I can make that statement based upon his theology. If he thinks one can lose their salvation, then he has no peace. I wasn’t judging his salvation but his theology.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You made my work here EASIER, By spewing that open statement is a TOTAL LIE. You are not unusual, you are the NORM. I have found almost NOBODY that has a Vendetta AGAINST OSAS, who has as actually believed a LIE about OSAS, and NOT the Truth what we actually TEACH and BELIEVE.

WE BELIEVE THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WORK, that YOU can earn Salvation or even maintain SALVATION. Working to earn or maintain Salvation is a TOTAL WAIST of TIME! WHY? Because IT IS A FREE GIFT, for those HE WROTE in the BOOK OF LIFE before the earth was formed. We (OSAS) actually BELIEVE nothing CAN BE A DONE TO IMPROVE YOUR CHANCES TO MAKE SALVATION, because when you do that, the LORD SEES IT AS FILTHY RAGS, totally worthless as a motive to GET SAVED.

OBEDIENCE IS NOT PART OF SALVATION, HOWEVER, OBEDIENCE IS PART OF OUR AGAPE LOVE, WHICH HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS also the Human Spirit:

Romans 5:1-10 (NRSV)
1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die.
8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.


THEIR IS YOUR ASSURANCE THAT OSAS IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH! VERSE TEN SAYS IT IN PLAIN ENGLISH.

Here what OSAS CHURCHES actually TEACH! COMPARE THAT TO THE LIE THE DEVIL PLANTED IN YOUR BRAIN. I am sorry for your Parents, who only thought they knew what OSAS taught. However IF they ever had dug into the Scriptures, and researched it in the Church's Constitution and Doctrinal Statement of FAITH, HERE IS WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND OUT ABOUT GOD GIVEN LOVE:

John 14:15 (NRSV)
15 "If you {AGAPE = Born Again} love me, you will keep {no add's, if's, or but's, as it is SOLIDLY a lifestyle change in your human
spirit, purely motivated out of AGAPE LOVE in your human spirit. Never does it imply PERFECTION, but an ongoing striving to keep,
MOTIVATED BY AGAPE LOVE.} my commandments.

John 14:24 (NRSV)
24 Whoever does not {AGAPE} love me does not keep my words; . . .{That KEEP's is in the verb tense, that does not imply PERFECTION, but rather a lifestyle of striving to keep HIS Word, motivated by AGAPE LOVE. If it is only a little while of Striving, and you go back to your old ways, you NEVER HAD WHAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE, born again. NO IT IS NOT PART OF SALVATION, it is a changed lifestyle, motivated by AGAPE LOVE towards GOD.}


Then you again made another FALSE STATEMENT. YOU SAID: No backslider who dies in his backsliden state is going to heaven.

Let's Put that Statement to the TEST OF SCRIPTURE. I assume you are talking about a Born Again Christian, not a disciple WHO HAD NEVER HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN? According to SCRIPTURE, how many sins did HE pay for on the CROSS, ROM 5:10, (above). OH MY ALL OF THEM. And before you say, I am teaching you can sin all you want, NO I AM NOT. IF YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, YOU WILL RETURN LIKE THE PRODIGAL SON, the HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVICT YOU IN YOUR HEART UNTIL YOU DO SO. IF YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN YOU WILL NOT RETURN, PERIOD, and no coviction in your heart which is also human spirit, because it is still DEAD.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

Do you want to see if you are sinless? That is an EASY ONE.

James 2:10 (NIV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Just in case you still think you are SINLESS, I will focus on a sin that you think is TRIVIAL.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man
for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for
the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put
to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as
bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
{That would be President Donald Trump, if you are an American.}

Now I will give you one EXAMPLE that will prove you are a SINNER, and YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD'S LAWS.

View attachment 213912
GOD INSPIRED ALL OF SCRIPTURE, Both 1 Pet. 2:13-15 and James 2:10, AND YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD'S LAWS.
YOU ARE A SINNER LIKE THE REST OF US. Sounds like you NEED A SAVIOR WHO BELIEVES HE CAN SAVE US, OSAS.

So, you believe that saint who decides that loving thy neighbor is no longer fun and instead embarks on a life of sex, drugs, and rock and roll is still gonna be "in that number when the saints go marchin in"?

 

[John146]

So, you believe that saint who decides that loving thy neighbor is no longer fun and instead embarks on a life of sex, drugs, and rock and roll is still gonna be "in that number when the saints go marchin in"?

What makes a saint? Are you relying on your righteousness or the righteousness of Jesus Christ? Are you judging?😉

 

[azamzimtoti]

I luv it.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I can make that statement based upon his theology. If he thinks one can lose their salvation, then he has no peace. I wasn’t judging his salvation but his theology.

Well, let's see how that idea of peace stacks up to the Bible:
"Great peace have they which love Thy law and nothing shall offend."

Can OSAS really claim to love God's Law when their arguments are an endless round of attempts to justify breaking it?

"There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

 

[Phoneman-777]

What makes a saint? Are you relying on your righteousness or the righteousness of Jesus Christ? Are you judging?😉

LOL I love fielding such easy questions: "Psalms 50:5 - "Gather my saints together unto Me; those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice."

Didn't somebody say somewhere that if a Christian is going to be a Christian, he must "deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow Me"? Oh yeah, I remember LOL

 

[Phoneman-777]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not about a seared conscience.

It absolutely is. It is at the point of a seared conscience that it becomes impossible to renew a person again to repentance. Until then, the Father's door of mercy which swings on the hinges of grace is still open and awaiting the return of the prodigal son.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The "rest of the story" is after one becomes a child of God, they will either grow and produce fruit or they will remain a child with only "milk to drink.".

A plane that stops moving forward will drop like a rock.
A baby that stops growing in the womb is stillborn.
A healthy man of 40 years that is still being spoon fed is not normal.

Likewise, the Christian who's been in the church for some time, yet is still being overcome by the same old sinful habits is not growing in grace, he is backslidden and in danger of the Judgment, according to Hebrews 10:26 KJV.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The book is addressed to the Jews in the last days...taking the mark of the beast. This is not doctrine for the body of Christ. If one takes the mark, there is no more sacrifice for sin. He is already condemned to hell.

All Scripture is profitable for the "man of God", not just a select few, right?

 

[John146]

Well, let's see how that idea of peace stacks up to the Bible:
"Great peace have they which love Thy law and nothing shall offend."

Can OSAS really claim to love God's Law when their arguments are an endless round of attempts to justify breaking it?

"There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[John146]

All Scripture is profitable for the "man of God", not just a select few, right?

Profitable for learning, yes. But is all Scripture to be applied? Nope. Most of Scripture is written to the Jews. Paul’s letters are to the body of Christ.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Most of Scripture is written to the Jews. Paul’s letters are to the body of Christ.

Romans 2:
[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Samuel 16:
[7]...for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

God see's a Jew when he looks on a believer.

So the book of "Hebrews" is written to us.

 

[EleventhHour]

It absolutely is. It is at the point of a seared conscience that it becomes impossible to renew a person again to repentance. Until then, the Father's door of mercy which swings on the hinges of grace is still open and awaiting the return of the prodigal son.

How many times.... oh Lord.... how many times!

 

[dcontroversal]

The saved have works of every flavor, some good, and some bad? I thought Jesus said a good tree can't bring forth bad fruit, right or wrong?

How would you describe the following WORKS of saved men...

1. Murder and adultry by David
2. SEXUAL fornicating Corinthian brother
3. Peter's denial of Jesus
4. Works of wood, hay and stubble that get burnt yet SAVED so as by fire

etc.....

Saved MEN do both Good and bad things and they SOMETIMES have works that ARE NOT GOOD!