Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,657
3,539
113
Personally, I would be afraid to say this. If Jesus is God he always rules the nations with a rod of iron. And you pick at the job he's doing?.
Read Isaiah 11. This is concerning when Jesus is king of the earth at His second coming.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,324
1,187
113
John 3:16-17 clearly states Jesus died for everyone. Otherwise Scripture would say for God so loved a few people...
Thayer's Greek concordance says the word "world" in John 3:16, means = used of believers only. The following verses containing the word "world" have the same meaning, John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Read Isaiah 11. This is concerning when Jesus is king of the earth at His second coming.
This was to happen in the times of the Roman Empire according to Daniel. Those who missed it still look for a physical kingdom of the future. The born again see that it happened when Daniel sad it would....when Christ was born.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
So now world means world but a few posts ago world didn’t mean world. I can’t believe I actually just wrote that sentence.
Greek words have a wide area of meaning. One size does not fit all.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,657
3,539
113
This was to happen in the times of the Roman Empire according to Daniel. Those who missed it still look for a physical kingdom of the future. The born again see that it happened when Daniel sad it would....when Christ was born.
This occurred when Christ was born? Do you really believe this? I’m going to stop highlighting verses. None of this has been fulfilled. None. It’s a joke to even discuss.🤦‍♂️

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
This occurred when Christ was born? Do you really believe this? I’m going to stop highlighting verses. None of this has been fulfilled. None. It’s a joke to even discuss.🤦‍♂️

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
You are reading it as the Pharisees do, with a veil over your eyes. This is why you are a Millinialist. Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,657
3,539
113
You are reading it as the Pharisees do, with a veil over your eyes. This is why you are a Millinialist. Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only.
You spiritualize most of the prophesies in your theology. Not good. In all the prophesies you need to spiritualize the people of Israel, Zion, the nations, Jerusalem, mountains of the earth, the land flowing with milk and honey, etc.. there’s too many to include.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
You spiritualize most of the prophesies in your theology. Not good. In all the prophesies you need to spiritualize the people of Israel, Zion, the nations, Jerusalem, mountains of the earth, the land flowing with milk and honey, etc.. there’s too many to include.
Jesus interpreted the OT prophecies when he proved his kingdom is spiritual. That removed the literal interpretation confirming they were symbolic. But only the born again can interpret them spiritually.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,324
1,187
113
The nation of Israel...and stop with the replacement theology. The body of Christ is not the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Christ came to redeem Israel, but only after their rejection did He choose to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles.
All of the nation of Israel is not of Israel, Rom 9:6. Jacob's name was changed by God to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect (Rom 9:11). Jacob/Israel includes his elect from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Rev 5:9).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,324
1,187
113
I like how you cunningly snuck in the words, could not believe, rather than, refused to believe. You actually make the claim they were pre-destined by God to not have the ability to believe. Sigh 😔.
Please pardon me for butting in. I felt to add to David-L's answer. We all were but natural men, unable to believe in the things of the Spirit until we were born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
Thayer's Greek concordance says the word "world" in John 3:16, means = used of believers only. The following verses containing the word "world" have the same meaning, John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.
The English word, world, in Greek means cosmos, and vice versa.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,324
1,187
113
How can you possibly in your right mind think that the Creator of the cosmos would crush His Son so brutally only for the interest of a select few people rather than giving His entire creation an opportunity to be saved?
Because scripture proves scripture and they must all harmonize one with the other in order to understand the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus and the scriptures uphold that Jesus did not die for all mankind. only those that his Father gave him (John 6:39).
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
Please pardon me for butting in. I felt to add to David-L's answer. We all were but natural men, unable to believe in the things of the Spirit until we were born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2.
Your addition is never perceived by me as butting in. I welcome your correspondence, and insight. That said however, I respectfully and vehemently disagree with Calvinism.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
Because scripture proves scripture and they must all harmonize one with the other in order to understand the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus and the scriptures uphold that Jesus did not die for all mankind. only those that his Father gave him (John 6:39).
Scripture says that God is LOVE. It goes against everything to believe that “LOVE” would select only a few people for salvation and predestine everyone else for damnation. In fact, such a concept is preposterous.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,324
1,187
113
The English word, world, in Greek means cosmos, and vice versa.
Why does God tell us to not love the world, 1 John 2:15, that he says he so loves, John 3:16, unless he is referring to two different worlds?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,657
3,539
113
Jesus interpreted the OT prophecies when he proved his kingdom is spiritual. That removed the literal interpretation confirming they were symbolic. But only the born again can interpret them spiritually.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)
You crack me up with your private interpretations.😂
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
Why does God tell us to not love the world, 1 John 2:15, that he says he so loves, John 3:16, unless he is referring to two different worlds?
He is.
God loved the world, meaning created world from context since it encompasses everyone.
Hate the world, refers to whatever is evil in the world - obviously we aren't instructed to hate saints in it, or our enemies even, we are commanded to love them.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Thayer's Greek concordance says the word "world" in John 3:16, means = used of believers only. The following verses containing the word "world" have the same meaning, John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.
Interesting to note ....

it should be noted that Thayer was a Unitarian, who denied Biblical Inerrancy,


Apparently he changed his view as well...

Thayer's original 1889, unabridged, Greek-English Lexicon, Greek Definition 2889, Section 8, defines the Greek word "kosmos" as referring to:
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Link
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,657
3,539
113
All of the nation of Israel is not of Israel, Rom 9:6. Jacob's name was changed by God to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect (Rom 9:11). Jacob/Israel includes his elect from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Rev 5:9).
Replacement theology is not biblical. The Church has not replaced Israel.🤦‍♂️