So many anti charismatic smear jobs allowed?

[Moses_Young]

A simple summary:

• Before the cross, faith + keeping the law was necessary for the Jews to be saved, Gentiles were totally left out unless they become Jews
• After the cross, faith in Jesus's dbr is all that is required for both Jews and Gentiles to be saved

Here's where I disagree. No one can keep the law. What did Elisha say to Naaman in 2 Kings 5:17 - 19? Did he say, first you've got to convert to our religion and it's going to sting, then learn all 613 of our laws, and put them into practice? Naaman asked God for forgiveness, and because Elisha told him "Go in peace", I believe God granted it to him, through faith.

And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the Lord.

In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon thy servant in this thing.

And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way.

 

[Guojing]

Here's where I disagree. No one can keep the law. What did Elisha say to Naaman in 2 Kings 5:17 - 19? Did he say, first you've got to convert to our religion and it's going to sting, then learn all 613 of our laws, and put them into practice? Naaman asked God for forgiveness, and because Elisha told him "Go in peace", I believe God granted it to him, through faith.

And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the Lord.

In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon thy servant in this thing.

And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way.

none can keep the law perfectly , true. That is what the animal sacrifice was for

But they have to try to keep it nevertheless

 

[notuptome]

none can keep the law perfectly , true. That is what the animal sacrifice was for

But they have to try to keep it nevertheless

When is the last time an animal was sacrificed to cover the sins of the people?

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Back up to verse 12 and get the context.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KelbyofGod]

Which Spirit is the question. And you are wondering that anticharismatics exists.

I know we've spoken before, and this is not an anti-wolfwint posting.

You've hit upon a really important topic...actual discernment of spirits.

It is not enough to say "I'm a thorough studier of the scriptures and what I'm seeing doesn't line up with what I think is right, therefore it is wrong". Same as it's not right to say "I think something is going to happen so I'll say it and call it prophecy".

There's a big difference between what we do by our understanding and what God does by whatever means he does.

Saul (before he became Paul) was a great studier of the scriptures and very bold in his beliefs, thinking he was right and therefore also justified in what he was doing. And it wasn't his studying or understanding of the scriptures that brought him to a clearer view. It was God actually moving that made the difference. That's when he knew, even though it went against everything he thought he knew.

That's what might have to happen before you could change your mind about some of the things you talk against. An ACTUAL move of God, not just a further investment in studying.

One of the obstacles I see in your path is the conviction that "Those things don't happen anymore!". Which is actually a statement of "I don't BELIEVE those things happen anymore." Or to say it in a positive-belief way "I BELIEVE those things don't happen anymore."

Right now it seems you operate on what you believe and understand. And you keep meeting people that tell you of things that happen that don't fit your current beliefs. (Like speaking in tongues and the associated gifts of the spirit). Based on your understanding, these things "must" be wrong and therefore must be spoken against.

And the people that tell you these strange things also are operating on what they believe and understand. So there are two groups, each studying and each operating on what they believe and understand. Arguing doesn't seem to convince either party. So what can be done to make it obvious which (if any) is right, and which is in error? The answer: invite God to move and make the truth known, even if it goes against what the person/people currently believe and understand.

That's what was needed in the Old Testament when Elijah confronted the 450 prophets of Baal, and that's what was needed in the New testament when Paul was confronting the (Holy Ghost baptized) followers of Jesus. And I would suggest that is what is needed today to separate between the beliefs and understandings of men. Which doctrines, actions, beliefs does GOD actually support? It will take God moving to show that. Or to put it scripturally "The Lord working with them, confirming the word with signs following".

That's part of the reason the bible states "These signs shall follow the believers...", to let us know that God will back up his word, with his actions.

If you, or anyone else, actually wants to know whether any spirit IS or ISN'T of God, you won't be able to rely on your beliefs and understanding...otherwise you could be persecuting TRUE Christians, as was Saul. It will take seeking God until HE MOVES to get it right. Which is also the only way that discernment of spirits, prophecy or any other spiritual gift ever actually work correctly...in the Old Testament, the New Testament or now.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you, or anyone else, actually wants to know whether any spirit IS or ISN'T of God, you won't be able to rely on your beliefs and understanding...

Your last clause seems to contradict Scripture.

You seem to be forgetting that God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to every believer. Which means that the indwelling Holy Spirit gives discernment to determine which spirits are from God and which are not. The acid test is what they say about the Lord Jesus Christ, His deity as well as His humanity:

1 JOHN 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[wolfwint]

I know we've spoken before, and this is not an anti-wolfwint posting.

You've hit upon a really important topic...actual discernment of spirits.

It is not enough to say "I'm a thorough studier of the scriptures and what I'm seeing doesn't line up with what I think is right, therefore it is wrong". Same as it's not right to say "I think something is going to happen so I'll say it and call it prophecy".

There's a big difference between what we do by our understanding and what God does by whatever means he does.

Saul (before he became Paul) was a great studier of the scriptures and very bold in his beliefs, thinking he was right and therefore also justified in what he was doing. And it wasn't his studying or understanding of the scriptures that brought him to a clearer view. It was God actually moving that made the difference. That's when he knew, even though it went against everything he thought he knew.

That's what might have to happen before you could change your mind about some of the things you talk against. An ACTUAL move of God, not just a further investment in studying.

One of the obstacles I see in your path is the conviction that "Those things don't happen anymore!". Which is actually a statement of "I don't BELIEVE those things happen anymore." Or to say it in a positive-belief way "I BELIEVE those things don't happen anymore."

Right now it seems you operate on what you believe and understand. And you keep meeting people that tell you of things that happen that don't fit your current beliefs. (Like speaking in tongues and the associated gifts of the spirit). Based on your understanding, these things "must" be wrong and therefore must be spoken against.

And the people that tell you these strange things also are operating on what they believe and understand. So there are two groups, each studying and each operating on what they believe and understand. Arguing doesn't seem to convince either party. So what can be done to make it obvious which (if any) is right, and which is in error? The answer: invite God to move and make the truth known, even if it goes against what the person/people currently believe and understand.

That's what was needed in the Old Testament when Elijah confronted the 450 prophets of Baal, and that's what was needed in the New testament when Paul was confronting the (Holy Ghost baptized) followers of Jesus. And I would suggest that is what is needed today to separate between the beliefs and understandings of men. Which doctrines, actions, beliefs does GOD actually support? It will take God moving to show that. Or to put it scripturally "The Lord working with them, confirming the word with signs following".

That's part of the reason the bible states "These signs shall follow the believers...", to let us know that God will back up his word, with his actions.

If you, or anyone else, actually wants to know whether any spirit IS or ISN'T of God, you won't be able to rely on your beliefs and understanding...otherwise you could be persecuting TRUE Christians, as was Saul. It will take seeking God until HE MOVES to get it right. Which is also the only way that discernment of spirits, prophecy or any other spiritual gift ever actually work correctly...in the Old Testament, the New Testament or now.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Dear Kelby, a good post. And I Think I understand the point. You are right,if I believe what I believe only because of my own understandig I am big in danger to follow a false path.
I am not denying that God works today through miracles, healings and prophecy.
What I do not believe is that he iniciatet the pentecostal/chatismatic movement and there teaching absolut the baptism whith the Holy Spirit.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Charismatics should always be aware that they are blaspheming the LORD if they say something that does not come from the LORD.

To claim that God said something when he, in fact, did not, is BLASPHEMY.

And, God forbid that anyone something in God's name that was not true.

If he does this, he is BLASPHEMING.

And, if he does this even one time, he should be SHUNNED as a blasphemer until he repents.

And, I fear that this is true for many charismatic types.

Unfortunately their fellow charismatics will often defend them to the end.

Consider Todd Bentley, whom charismatics still respect. And he is only the most notable blasphemer.

 

[Guojing]

When is the last time an animal was sacrificed to cover the sins of the people?

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Back up to verse 12 and get the context.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Jews do it all the time in the OT, all the way until the temple was destroyed in AD 70, which was when the Bible was written.

 

[Guojing]

Here's where I disagree. No one can keep the law. What did Elisha say to Naaman in 2 Kings 5:17 - 19? Did he say, first you've got to convert to our religion and it's going to sting, then learn all 613 of our laws, and put them into practice? Naaman asked God for forgiveness, and because Elisha told him "Go in peace", I believe God granted it to him, through faith.

And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the Lord.

In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon thy servant in this thing.

And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way.

As for your point about Naaman, the general rule for Gentiles who want to covenant with God, is given by Moses in Exodus 12:48

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Acts 15:1 verified it as the correct principle to follow, before the cross of Jesus.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Your last clause seems to contradict Scripture.

You seem to be forgetting that God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to every believer. Which means that the indwelling Holy Spirit gives discernment to determine which spirits are from God and which are not. The acid test is what they say about the Lord Jesus Christ, His deity as well as His humanity:

1 JOHN 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

There was no contradiction with scripture in what I said. In actuality, I suggest that the portions of scripture you reference actually help prove the point. Consider the truth of the following statement:

If a person who has the Holy Ghost automatically recognizes truth from error,,, there would be no need to explain methods for testing spirits.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[notuptome]

The Jews do it all the time in the OT, all the way until the temple was destroyed in AD 70, which was when the Bible was written.

So the Jews have had no way to cover their sins since 70AD? Think about what you just said. You wish to espouse an ideology that hasn't functioned since 70AD. Not smart in my book.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KelbyofGod]

Your last clause seems to contradict Scripture.

You seem to be forgetting that God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to every believer. Which means that the indwelling Holy Spirit gives discernment to determine which spirits are from God and which are not. The acid test is what they say about the Lord Jesus Christ, His deity as well as His humanity:

1 JOHN 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Nehemiah6,

I just reread my post #344 and your reply, and I think I now see what you were specifically pointing towards. My post (#350) was responding to the false idea that someone with the Holy Ghost would automatically recognize truth vs. error. I'd missed the fact that I constantly referred to spirits (not doctrines) in post #344 and you were pointing towards a verse that specifically teaches how to test spirits (at least during prophecy). In that idea, there was error in my last clause of post#344, as you stated. Thank you for noticing and pointing it out.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Guojing]

So the Jews have had no way to cover their sins since 70AD? Think about what you just said. You wish to espouse an ideology that hasn't functioned since 70AD. Not smart in my book.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

By then, obviously Jesus has already died on the cross for their sins and was the final sacrifice, so animal sacrifices, like circumcision was invalid.

Before the cross, they had to sacrifice animals whenever they transgress the Law. That was my point so I don't know what you are trying to get at.

 

[Moses_Young]

As for your point about Naaman, the general rule for Gentiles who want to covenant with God, is given by Moses in Exodus 12:48

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Acts 15:1 verified it as the correct principle to follow, before the cross of Jesus.

And yet, Elisha said to Naaman, "Go in peace". Was Elisha wrong to say go in peace? Should he have said "Let all your males be circumcised, then come and keep the passover with we Israelites?" How would it be reasonable for Naaman go in peace if he was destined for an eternity in hell? What you are saying doesn't seem to add up with scripture.

Neither the Jews, nor the Gentiles, were ever saved by keeping the law. They were all saved by faith in God, as was Abraham the father of faith.

 

[Guojing]

And yet, Elisha said to Naaman, "Go in peace". Was Elisha wrong to say go in peace? Should he have said "Let all your males be circumcised, then come and keep the passover with we Israelites?" How would it be reasonable for Naaman go in peace if he was destined for an eternity in hell? What you are saying doesn't seem to add up with scripture.

Neither the Jews, nor the Gentiles, were ever saved by keeping the law. They were all saved by faith in God, as was Abraham the father of faith.

I have no idea why Elisha chose not to mention that to him, maybe all Naaman wanted was to be healed of his leprosy? You can ask him in heaven after the rapture.

I did not say Jews were saved by keeping the law alone. I am saying, before the revelation of the mystery, faith in God was not enough to be saved. As James always reminded them, faith without works is dead.

It was Faith in God + Keeping the Law. No Jews during the OT could be saved by faith alone. Faith alone apart from works was only revealed to Paul by the ascended Christ, for the body of Christ.

 

[Moses_Young]

I have no idea why Elisha chose not to mention that to him, maybe all Naaman wanted was to be healed of his leprosy? You can ask him in heaven after the rapture.

I did not say Jews were saved by keeping the law alone. I am saying faith in God was not enough to be saved. As James always reminded them, faith without works is dead.

It was Faith in God + Keeping the Law. No Jews during the OT could be saved by faith alone. Faith alone apart from works was only revealed to Paul by the ascended Christ, for the body of Christ.

Romans 4:1 - 10
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Abraham was saved by faith alone. His faith in God was credited to him, by God, as righteousness. Elisha's words recorded in the scriptures imply to me that Naaman found this same faith, in this same God.

 

[Absolutely]

Charismatics should always be aware that they are blaspheming the LORD if they say something that does not come from the LORD.

To claim that God said something when he, in fact, did not, is BLASPHEMY.

And, God forbid that anyone something in God's name that was not true.

If he does this, he is BLASPHEMING.

And, if he does this even one time, he should be SHUNNED as a blasphemer until he repents.

And, I fear that this is true for many charismatic types.

Unfortunately their fellow charismatics will often defend them to the end.

Consider Todd Bentley, whom charismatics still respect. And he is only the most notable blasphemer.

And all baptists since they all act exactly like,and have the exact same convictions as yarborough baptists, should know,since the ONLY THING they know about charismatics is whatever you tube is currently maligning, mocking and lampooning them with could do well to look in the mirror.

Since we know baptists are best represented by the insanity of yarborough baptists,should they not indulge in the goldmine of material they could easily waste even more time on in their religion of mockery?

Think of the possibilities!
Satan would actually ralley even further in the "cause"

 

[Absolutely]

Your last clause seems to contradict Scripture.

You seem to be forgetting that God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to every believer. Which means that the indwelling Holy Spirit gives discernment to determine which spirits are from God and which are not. The acid test is what they say about the Lord Jesus Christ, His deity as well as His humanity:

1 JOHN 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Jesus confirms his word.
He is happy to do so.
When I hear a word from God I go ahead and test it myself.
There are three or four major ways God speaks to those belonging to him.
Direct voice
Bible
Other people
Pictures....images.

I know of and operate in all three. Amazing how accurate that dynamic is.

Actually a 5th is "unction"
That is a nudge or can be a bad feeling.

 

[Absolutely]

Are you able to tell me what you mean by half a gospel?

You make numerous bold assertions but support none of them with scripture.

Am I to believe just because you are sincere and honest?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you able to know that the serpent on mosses staff was a type of Christ on the cross?

That type of Christ was in direct parallel to healing being part of salvation.
Pointed directly to divine healing. Miracles of healing.

That "other half" of the covenant of the nt Will NOT BE UNDERSTOOD OR DISCLOSED at your local Baptist church.

.".....they were unable to discern the Lords body,for this reason many are sick, and some sleep"
(You have to be on track with the whole word of God,not a baptist preacher)
None of my assertion are outside scripture...you are because you listen to the wrong teachers.
So you remain unlearned

 

[Guojing]

Romans 4:1 - 10
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Abraham was saved by faith alone. His faith in God was credited to him, by God, as righteousness. Elisha's words recorded in the scriptures imply to me that Naaman found this same faith, in this same God.

If you want to read into the scripture, into the meeting between Elisha and Naaman, I cannot stop you from doing so.

Let me give you a scenario to illustrate what I was trying to say: Put yourself in the shoes of a Jew during the OT.

Can you ever tell the high priest, "I put my faith in God and I believe I am saved by that faith alone. I am not going to be circumcised nor am I going to circumcise my kids since Abraham was declared righteous by God even before he was circumcised in Genesis 15:6!"

One of the first thing the high priest will remind you is "Son, I am aware that you memorized Genesis 15:6 but do remember to read on to Genesis 17 when the Lord told Abraham

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

All of us non Jews know how to quote Genesis 15:6, thanks to Paul but we often forget Genesis 17 was binding to Abraham and the rest of his descendants as well.

Fortunately, under the gospel of grace, circumcision is no longer binding on anyone. But the Jews during the OT could not "anticipate revelation" then. They had to follow the Law of Moses, which was binding to them.