No, the Muslim path does not lead to salvation for those who reject Jesus. That is what Christians generally believe. As someone said above, if a Muslim man or woman converts to Christianity, then he or she is no longer Muslim. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light. At least, that's the way my bible reads.
Catholicism vs Protestantism
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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True! And a set of laws is usually intended to be complete in itself. For example, the US code is huge, something like 53 titles. For certain titles, like title 17, it's doubtful that any single person knows everything that it says. And it has a large section of the beginning that deals just with definitions! https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/101
But the lumen gentium is not that kind of document. It isn't complete in itself, it isn't intended to be used in isolation. For example, right in the beginning they imply that they are aware of a previous councils have said
"This it intends to do following faithfully the teaching of previous councils."
No, not all professing Christians are saved.
True!
Well, the lumen gentium doesn't say "Muslim save", and I don't think it tries to make distinctions between different types of Muslims.
No. Of all the millions of people in the world that are broadly called Muslim, I think some are on the path to salvation.
Sure, for some of them!
I don't know that much about the Indonesian language and its conventions for common usage.
I believe the lumen gentium was originally written in Latin. What we've been using here is, I think, an approved translation into standardized college-level English, which I've been reading for at least 30 years. And I'm fairly certain that the word Muslim can be properly applied to a person without regard to how much they have heard about Jesus.
But the lumen gentium is not that kind of document. It isn't complete in itself, it isn't intended to be used in isolation. For example, right in the beginning they imply that they are aware of a previous councils have said
"This it intends to do following faithfully the teaching of previous councils."
No, not all professing Christians are saved.
True!
Well, the lumen gentium doesn't say "Muslim save", and I don't think it tries to make distinctions between different types of Muslims.
No. Of all the millions of people in the world that are broadly called Muslim, I think some are on the path to salvation.
Sure, for some of them!
I don't know that much about the Indonesian language and its conventions for common usage.
I believe the lumen gentium was originally written in Latin. What we've been using here is, I think, an approved translation into standardized college-level English, which I've been reading for at least 30 years. And I'm fairly certain that the word Muslim can be properly applied to a person without regard to how much they have heard about Jesus.
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I understand LG Not complete law, catholic have ccc or may othe law
But I question the consistency
For example, no verse in the Bible say Jesus is not God.
You can not say no salvation apart from Catholic, than say Muslim is in the plan of salvation
It is ok to say Muslim not save, than say for those that never hear the gospel, there will be special consideration. That's common in the law
For example
Every body not show up tomorrow will be fired
Except for those with health issue.
But say only catholic than say Muslim include is inconsistent
But I question the consistency
For example, no verse in the Bible say Jesus is not God.
You can not say no salvation apart from Catholic, than say Muslim is in the plan of salvation
It is ok to say Muslim not save, than say for those that never hear the gospel, there will be special consideration. That's common in the law
For example
Every body not show up tomorrow will be fired
Except for those with health issue.
But say only catholic than say Muslim include is inconsistent
So if one say Muslim save, not under cathegory because never hear about Jesus isn't it?
But it say Muslim in the plan of salvation because profess the faith of abraham.
Do you believe Muslim hold the faith of abraham?
And LG say together with us Muslim adore the one and mercifull god...
Do you believe Christian share the same god with Muslim?
But it say Muslim in the plan of salvation because profess the faith of abraham.
Do you believe Muslim hold the faith of abraham?
And LG say together with us Muslim adore the one and mercifull god...
Do you believe Christian share the same god with Muslim?
Example
PreVous law say Jesus is the only savior
The next law can not say Jesus not the only savior or lie
Previous law
A. No salvation apart from Catholic
Next law
B. Muslim in the plan of salvation
Is B mean Muslim not save because not catholic?
Normal people college student or not believe B mean Muslim save
If one want to say Muslim not save, say so( say Muslim not save because not catholic)
PreVous law say Jesus is the only savior
The next law can not say Jesus not the only savior or lie
Previous law
A. No salvation apart from Catholic
Next law
B. Muslim in the plan of salvation
Is B mean Muslim not save because not catholic?
Normal people college student or not believe B mean Muslim save
If one want to say Muslim not save, say so( say Muslim not save because not catholic)
Yes, I believe Protestants are saved.
That is a general statement. It doesn't mean that every single Protestant is saved.
Similar to saying, "In the USA, they speak English." It doesn't mean that every single person in the USA speaks English.
No, I believe the official Catholic teaching is that Protestants, or anyone, who knows about the Catholic church in the sense of knowing that their system of priests and bishops is ordained by God, and refuses to participate in the sacraments administered by those priests and bishops, cannot be saved. Because Catholics see salvation as a process, the person in question could always repent and then be on the path to salvation again.
It doesn't specify. I read it as a general statement.
They mention several different groups before and after that section, in that section I believe they want to talk specifically about Muslims. But of course, what they say there has to be understood in light of other things they and other councils have written.
I believe that would be a false dichotomy. It's possible for a person to not have heard of Jesus and at the same time profess the faith of Abraham. Of course, "the faith of Abraham" could be understood several different ways.
That is a general statement. It doesn't mean that every single Protestant is saved.
Similar to saying, "In the USA, they speak English." It doesn't mean that every single person in the USA speaks English.
No, I believe the official Catholic teaching is that Protestants, or anyone, who knows about the Catholic church in the sense of knowing that their system of priests and bishops is ordained by God, and refuses to participate in the sacraments administered by those priests and bishops, cannot be saved. Because Catholics see salvation as a process, the person in question could always repent and then be on the path to salvation again.
It doesn't specify. I read it as a general statement.
They mention several different groups before and after that section, in that section I believe they want to talk specifically about Muslims. But of course, what they say there has to be understood in light of other things they and other councils have written.
I believe that would be a false dichotomy. It's possible for a person to not have heard of Jesus and at the same time profess the faith of Abraham. Of course, "the faith of Abraham" could be understood several different ways.
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator."
And yes, the first group that talks about after that is Muslims. But it doesn't say that the plan of salvation also includes Muslims *because* they are "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God." Rather, I believe they are listing qualities that Muslims in general have that God may take into account as he judges Muslims, and all humans.
As I said above, the faith of Abraham can be understood in different ways.
As for worshiping the same God, I like to remember this
Acts 17: 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you.
Paul then goes on to talk about the true God. But he has said that the Athenians were worshiping that God in ignorance. So, the Athenians were worshiping the same God as Paul, it's just that the Athenians were worshipping him in ignorance. If that was true for the Athenians back then, the same thinking would hold true regarding Muslims today, imo.
And yes, the first group that talks about after that is Muslims. But it doesn't say that the plan of salvation also includes Muslims *because* they are "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God." Rather, I believe they are listing qualities that Muslims in general have that God may take into account as he judges Muslims, and all humans.
As I said above, the faith of Abraham can be understood in different ways.
As for worshiping the same God, I like to remember this
Acts 17: 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you.
Paul then goes on to talk about the true God. But he has said that the Athenians were worshiping that God in ignorance. So, the Athenians were worshiping the same God as Paul, it's just that the Athenians were worshipping him in ignorance. If that was true for the Athenians back then, the same thinking would hold true regarding Muslims today, imo.
Jackson123 said:
So you believe Protestant save,
Yes, I believe Protestants are saved.
That is a general statement. It doesn't mean that every single Protestant is saved.
Similar to saying, "In the USA, they speak English." It doesn't mean that every single person in the USA speaks English.
...but is official catholic teaching believe Protestant that know about catholic but not partisipate in catholic sacrament save?
No, I believe the official Catholic teaching is that Protestants, or anyone, who knows about the Catholic church in the sense of knowing that their system of priests and bishops is ordained by God, and refuses to participate in the sacraments administered by those priests and bishops, cannot be saved. Because Catholics see salvation as a process, the person in question could always repent and then be on the path to salvation again.
Jackson
So you not agree with catholic in this case don't you?
Muslim in the plan of salvation, it doesn't say only Muslim that never hear about Jesus, it just like saya Christian in the plan of salvation or Christian save isn't it?
If they consider ccc 816 the truth, than don't say ccc 841.
Bible say Jesus is the only savior, than no other bible writer say Muslim save.
I can't say Muslim save in the light of Jesus the only savior.
So you believe Muslim that save because never hear gospel or hold faith abraham?
Ccc 841 say Muslim save because hold abraham faith, do you agree?
So you believe Protestant save,
Yes, I believe Protestants are saved.
That is a general statement. It doesn't mean that every single Protestant is saved.
Similar to saying, "In the USA, they speak English." It doesn't mean that every single person in the USA speaks English.
...but is official catholic teaching believe Protestant that know about catholic but not partisipate in catholic sacrament save?
No, I believe the official Catholic teaching is that Protestants, or anyone, who knows about the Catholic church in the sense of knowing that their system of priests and bishops is ordained by God, and refuses to participate in the sacraments administered by those priests and bishops, cannot be saved. Because Catholics see salvation as a process, the person in question could always repent and then be on the path to salvation again.
Jackson
So you not agree with catholic in this case don't you?
Muslim in the plan of salvation, it doesn't say only Muslim that never hear about Jesus, it just like saya Christian in the plan of salvation or Christian save isn't it?
If they consider ccc 816 the truth, than don't say ccc 841.
Bible say Jesus is the only savior, than no other bible writer say Muslim save.
I can't say Muslim save in the light of Jesus the only savior.
So you believe Muslim that save because never hear gospel or hold faith abraham?
Ccc 841 say Muslim save because hold abraham faith, do you agree?
Jackson123 said:
It say in lumen gentium, people that never hear about Jesus may save
But for Muslim they save because profess abraham faith and adore the same god with catholic
Dan say
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator."
And yes, the first group that talks about after that is Muslims. But it doesn't say that the plan of salvation also includes Muslims *because* they are "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God." Rather, I believe they are listing qualities that Muslims in general have that God may take into account as he judges Muslims, and all humans.
Jackson
So you believe Muslim qualified to be save because hold the faith of abraham?
And what do you mean by understood different way, give example.
What Catholic understood about to hold abraham faith, what Protestant, way what Muslim way?
It say in lumen gentium, people that never hear about Jesus may save
But for Muslim they save because profess abraham faith and adore the same god with catholic
Dan say
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator."
And yes, the first group that talks about after that is Muslims. But it doesn't say that the plan of salvation also includes Muslims *because* they are "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God." Rather, I believe they are listing qualities that Muslims in general have that God may take into account as he judges Muslims, and all humans.
Jackson
So you believe Muslim qualified to be save because hold the faith of abraham?
And what do you mean by understood different way, give example.
What Catholic understood about to hold abraham faith, what Protestant, way what Muslim way?
And you believe Muslim god share all the characteris of true God, that why Muslim in the plan of salvation?
After Paul tell them who God is they accept and save, I don't think Paul say they don't need to accept Jesus.
Paul not say
Athenians in the plan of salvation because hold the faith of abraham and share the same god with me.
After Paul tell them who God is they accept and save, I don't think Paul say they don't need to accept Jesus.
Paul not say
Athenians in the plan of salvation because hold the faith of abraham and share the same god with me.
As I understand it, saying that the plan of salvation also includes is not the same as saying that the person included is saved. This is where the possibility of salvation being a process comes in.
I suspect that there are people on the path to salvation, both Muslims and non-muslims, who don't believe Jesus is God.
I suspect that there are people on the path to salvation, both Muslims and non-muslims, who don't believe Jesus is God.