THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY
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Do not speak as if you have a right to judge your brother or sister...for you sir, are doing exactly the same and were told by HIS WORD not to do....
And I will not even go as far as to ask you if you have been convicted of this...
That is between yourself and THE LORD...
When you see a brother sin, sir.
Not assume and accuse your brother/sister of sin...
(that is equivalent to beating HIS SERVANTS)
Innocent as doves and wise as serpents?
No sir...when you have a preconceived notion and when there is no LOVE for the salvation of a soul(s), you can NOT teach...for you are adding to THE FOUNDATION an element of your own human nature...and it isn´t LOVE.
Not only that, you are going beyond THE GOSPEL
teach THE TRUTH then, sir...to those whom you have fixed in your heart...to...FIX
And I will not even go as far as to ask you if you have been convicted of this...
That is between yourself and THE LORD...
When you see a brother sin, sir.
Not assume and accuse your brother/sister of sin...
(that is equivalent to beating HIS SERVANTS)
Innocent as doves and wise as serpents?
No sir...when you have a preconceived notion and when there is no LOVE for the salvation of a soul(s), you can NOT teach...for you are adding to THE FOUNDATION an element of your own human nature...and it isn´t LOVE.
Not only that, you are going beyond THE GOSPEL
teach THE TRUTH then, sir...to those whom you have fixed in your heart...to...FIX
Yo
Brother, please refer to the following link:
https://www.soulwinning.info/fd/lordship_salvation/dr_rice_refutes.htm
https://www.soulwinning.info/fd/lordship_salvation/dr_rice_refutes.htm
Actually what it seems to me @EleventhHour is with his constant use of Matthew 5:48 that there is more to it than that and it is possible that there is an agenda rooted in something, perhaps bitterness. Although I do appreciate you trying to see eye to eye with the poster.
I know that when I've tried to wrap my mind around a scripture in my flesh it can get to this level.
Essentially this verse could present an impossible command, "be ye perfect ..." Any sin is imperfection, therefore this standard is impossible. Any time you get low or down or feel like giving in, you strap your pack (cross) and dig in and war against the flesh in a lifelong struggle toward that perfection. How can one have assurance if they fall short of perfection?
"...for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" This verse doesn't say all do sin, merely all have. Can I draw from that sentence that it is indeed possible and that there is a way to lead a sinless life and be "perfect"?
You see how you can take a lot of "troubling" lines of thinking down on many unproductive trails...and indeed I've lived out "brute force righteousness" but by doing that personally, I end up being unable to contain other things and still fail when I do it in myself and the process of letting the Lord work his righteous in me by following him, abiding, picking up my cross is a bit harder to discern, and it something like watching your hair grow in a mirror. The less you focus on it, the more you seem to notice...you can definitely see it reflected in others at times...or at least I have and I hope others have had a similar experience.
Personally, this particular verse (Mt 5:48) has been accusatory at times based of the above line of thinking. So I would ask at present @Sudakar is what does perfection mean in context with this verse?
Where are you going? No offense, but questions with very little interaction with the responses looks like baiting. If not, you seem to be desirous of driving a point home but consider that the Lord has used many different ways of shining a light on our understanding and yet hiding it from some at the same time. Perhaps a different method?
In regard to faith and how "assurance" works. Faith and human sight (that which can be seen/observed/divined/experienced) are integrated in a unique equation that is impossible for me to describe. Some days I have doubts, and others I don't. There's
a lot more to be said for doubt both intellectual doubts and our own spirit's doubting, but I've been rather long in posts lately, so I'll just skip that unless someone would find it useful.
I don't have a lot of the perfection verse figured out, except that perfect love seems to be the context. I think we most certainly are vessels at times for the Lord's perfect love displayed either to us privately, or to others by many ways. So if his love be in us, we can walk according to that perfect love and perhaps in his sight that is perfection.
Of COURSE that said within context of being a sheep following the good shepherd
I know that when I've tried to wrap my mind around a scripture in my flesh it can get to this level.
Essentially this verse could present an impossible command, "be ye perfect ..." Any sin is imperfection, therefore this standard is impossible. Any time you get low or down or feel like giving in, you strap your pack (cross) and dig in and war against the flesh in a lifelong struggle toward that perfection. How can one have assurance if they fall short of perfection?
"...for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" This verse doesn't say all do sin, merely all have. Can I draw from that sentence that it is indeed possible and that there is a way to lead a sinless life and be "perfect"?
You see how you can take a lot of "troubling" lines of thinking down on many unproductive trails...and indeed I've lived out "brute force righteousness" but by doing that personally, I end up being unable to contain other things and still fail when I do it in myself and the process of letting the Lord work his righteous in me by following him, abiding, picking up my cross is a bit harder to discern, and it something like watching your hair grow in a mirror. The less you focus on it, the more you seem to notice...you can definitely see it reflected in others at times...or at least I have and I hope others have had a similar experience.
Personally, this particular verse (Mt 5:48) has been accusatory at times based of the above line of thinking. So I would ask at present @Sudakar is what does perfection mean in context with this verse?
Where are you going? No offense, but questions with very little interaction with the responses looks like baiting. If not, you seem to be desirous of driving a point home but consider that the Lord has used many different ways of shining a light on our understanding and yet hiding it from some at the same time. Perhaps a different method?
In regard to faith and how "assurance" works. Faith and human sight (that which can be seen/observed/divined/experienced) are integrated in a unique equation that is impossible for me to describe. Some days I have doubts, and others I don't. There's
a lot more to be said for doubt both intellectual doubts and our own spirit's doubting, but I've been rather long in posts lately, so I'll just skip that unless someone would find it useful.
I don't have a lot of the perfection verse figured out, except that perfect love seems to be the context. I think we most certainly are vessels at times for the Lord's perfect love displayed either to us privately, or to others by many ways. So if his love be in us, we can walk according to that perfect love and perhaps in his sight that is perfection.
Of COURSE that said within context of being a sheep following the good shepherd
They set a human standard in order to prove one has submitted to the Lord's Lordship and reject the standard set by the Lord in Mathew 5:48.
IS DEMANDING CHRISTIANS TO PROVE THEY HAVE SAVING FAITH WITHOUT STATING A STANDARD TO CHECK FOR COMPLIANCE, MEANINGFUL?
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
So you are against works based salvation, but you promote sinless perfection and don't consider that works based salvation?
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
Okay, again I agree up to the conclusion really, but still absent from the whole "equation", from my point of view anyway is ANYTHING at all about the Spirit. That's troubling to me honestly. I guess I may be a bit more hyper aware of this kind of thing because of how long I sat in a church hearing the preacher preach His word, thinking I was as "saved" as one could be, but knew nothing about His Spirit, the vital role He plays in our salvation, and was still as lost as can be. Only thinking I was a Christian. When I don't hear about His Spirit in your words it honestly is concerning to me, because there is so much more to God than words on paper. Praise His name for every letter He's revealed to us, and these words are the very power of God to save men, I can't stress their importance enough, but "saved" means something, once we are saved, truly saved, I've been both, we enter into His kingdom right here on earth in our midst. Take everything our King said about His coming kingdom and see, if we are born again we are in His kingdom right now, again if these thing sound strange to you, it might be Him calling you, drawing you deeper because your rational here is a bit off somehow. You are ONLY focused on the flesh side of things completely blind to the spiritual. I am trying to trend very lightly here because I am no one. I am no judge or checker of soul status, and I pray you see these words as a loving warning and not a big headed judgement of your soul status, but I say this also with as much sincerity as I can convey in words here, but being so seemingly blind of these things point to one still being in the flesh. I don't know you and I DO know God works in each on of us differently and for His purpose, so I KNOW that I have no clue how that may be going in you. I could be so far off base here as to have embarrassed myself, and if so I am sorry, but I cannot hear these things without sharing the concerns that rise when I'm reading your words. All I'm saying is ask yourself if you've been born again. I'd love to hear how and all about it if you're up for sharing, but if you find that you still have no clue about this "spirit stuff" I'm talking about, this very well may be the time Jesus is calling you to come.
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More trolling? What's wrong? After your many posts few are engaging you?
I don't blame them.
I will answer you and you can get you last words in as you've been proven false from the beginning of your errant OP.
Works (fruit) are evidence of conversion, not the cause. True conversion, true believers, and false, are all qualified by Scripture, both true, and false. You may want to give 1 John a read through, and examine yourself to see whether you are converted, or not.
We are saved by grace which is through faith; Ephesians 2:8-10. Faith is the gift of God, Ephesians 1:19; 2 Peter 1:1.
If there is no evidence of conversion there was no conversion. All truly converted are transformed, and show evidence. Note 2 Corinthians 3:18ff, Hebrews 12:14.
You continue to come up with baseless illogical conclusions and conflate evidence of conversion with works. You preach Antinomianism (lawlessness) which is a false gospel condemned by Sctipture. Note what Christ says about this in Matthew 7:21-23.
Those who adhere to so-called Lordship Salvation believe salvation is 100% of God and none of man.
Now, go ahead and get your last word in.
I don't blame them.
I will answer you and you can get you last words in as you've been proven false from the beginning of your errant OP.
Works (fruit) are evidence of conversion, not the cause. True conversion, true believers, and false, are all qualified by Scripture, both true, and false. You may want to give 1 John a read through, and examine yourself to see whether you are converted, or not.
We are saved by grace which is through faith; Ephesians 2:8-10. Faith is the gift of God, Ephesians 1:19; 2 Peter 1:1.
If there is no evidence of conversion there was no conversion. All truly converted are transformed, and show evidence. Note 2 Corinthians 3:18ff, Hebrews 12:14.
You continue to come up with baseless illogical conclusions and conflate evidence of conversion with works. You preach Antinomianism (lawlessness) which is a false gospel condemned by Sctipture. Note what Christ says about this in Matthew 7:21-23.
Those who adhere to so-called Lordship Salvation believe salvation is 100% of God and none of man.
Now, go ahead and get your last word in.
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Okay, again I agree up to the conclusion really, but still absent from the whole "equation", from my point of view anyway is ANYTHING at all about the Spirit. That's troubling to me honestly. I guess I may be a bit more hyper aware of this kind of thing because of how long I sat in a church hearing the preacher preach His word, thinking I was as "saved" as one could be, but knew nothing about His Spirit, the vital role He plays in our salvation, and was still as lost as can be. Only thinking I was a Christian. When I don't hear about His Spirit in your words it honestly is concerning to me, because there is so much more to God than words on paper. Praise His name for every letter He's revealed to us, and these words are the very power of God to save men, I can't stress their importance enough, but "saved" means something, once we are saved, truly saved, I've been both, we enter into His kingdom right here on earth in our midst. Take everything our King said about His coming kingdom and see, if we are born again we are in His kingdom right now, again if these thing sound strange to you, it might be Him calling you, drawing you deeper because your rational here is a bit off somehow. You are ONLY focused on the flesh side of things completely blind to the spiritual. I am trying to trend very lightly here because I am no one. I am no judge or checker of soul status, and I pray you see these words as a loving warning and not a big headed judgement of your soul status, but I say this also with as much sincerity as I can convey in words here, but being so seemingly blind of these things point to one still being in the flesh. I don't know you and I DO know God works in each on of us differently and for His purpose, so I KNOW that I have no clue how that may be going in you. I could be so far off base here as to have embarrassed myself, and if so I am sorry, but I cannot hear these things without sharing the concerns that rise when I'm reading your words. All I'm saying is ask yourself if you've been born again. I'd love to hear how and all about it if you're up for sharing, but if you find that you still have no clue about this "spirit stuff" I'm talking about, this very well may be the time Jesus is calling you to come.
2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
More trolling? What's wrong? After your many posts few are engaging you?
I don't blame them.
I will answer you and you can get you last words in as you've been proven false from the beginning of your errant OP.
Works (fruit) are evidence of conversion, not the cause. True conversion, true believers, and false, are all qualified by Scripture, both true, and false. You may want to give 1 John a read through, and examine yourself to see whether you are converted, or not.
We are saved by grace which is through faith; Ephesians 2:8-10. Faith is the gift of God, Ephesians 1:19; 2 Peter 1:1.
If there is no evidence of conversion there was no conversion. All truly converted are transformed, and show evidence. Note 2 Corinthians 3:18ff, Hebrews 12:14.
You continue to come up with baseless illogical conclusions and conflate evidence of conversion with works. You preach Antinomianism (lawlessness) which is a false gospel condemned by Sctipture. Note what Christ says about this in Matthew 7:21-23.
Those who adhere to so-called Lordship Salvation believe salvation is 100% of God and none of man.
Now, go ahead and get your last word in.
I don't blame them.
I will answer you and you can get you last words in as you've been proven false from the beginning of your errant OP.
Works (fruit) are evidence of conversion, not the cause. True conversion, true believers, and false, are all qualified by Scripture, both true, and false. You may want to give 1 John a read through, and examine yourself to see whether you are converted, or not.
We are saved by grace which is through faith; Ephesians 2:8-10. Faith is the gift of God, Ephesians 1:19; 2 Peter 1:1.
If there is no evidence of conversion there was no conversion. All truly converted are transformed, and show evidence. Note 2 Corinthians 3:18ff, Hebrews 12:14.
You continue to come up with baseless illogical conclusions and conflate evidence of conversion with works. You preach Antinomianism (lawlessness) which is a false gospel condemned by Sctipture. Note what Christ says about this in Matthew 7:21-23.
Those who adhere to so-called Lordship Salvation believe salvation is 100% of God and none of man.
Now, go ahead and get your last word in.
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
