"Jesus died for everybody's sins"

[PennEd]

This passage is fairly conclusive proof that Jesus paid for saved and unsaved sinners alike. It’s as if He bought every room Forever in the best Hotel ever, and whoever comes will stay forever.

But not all believe it and come. But it doesn’t change the fact that He paid for the rooms.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2:2&version=NKJV

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Jesus died for everybody's sins".

This is what I hear often from Christians and non-Christians alike.

Surely it isn't true though.

Jesus said
"I am the way, the truth and the life".
Humanity turned away from God when we ignored God's commandments in the garden of Eden.
Jesus offers us a way to develop a relationship with God and to start following Him again.

Jesus died for the sins of the people who choose to follow Him, and believe in Him.
He did not die for every random person, whether they choose to follow and believe in Him or not.

Thoughts?

All manner of sin shall be forgive all men.
The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world

Jesus died for all sin However, the sin of unbelief will not be forgiven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

...so no, not everybody.
The opportunity to reconnect with God is given to everybody, but not everybody will take it.

true but it does not mean he did not pay their sin debt also. If he did not pay their debt, he has no capacity to offer them salvation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you're saying that only people that God chooses will follow Jesus?

So why doesn't he just change everybody's heart?

He does not like them all?

 

[p_rehbein]

It is only through Jesus that we are able to reconnect with God.

Are you suggesting that even those who choose not to follow Jesus will not be judged?

???

Nowhere in my comments did suggest any such thing..........don't even know how you read that into it...........I would think it's clear to all believes that those who choose to serve mammon will be judged for their unbelief........

But not choosing violates the 1st Commandment.

???
Did I say "not choosing?"

 

[oldethennew]

HELLO!!!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Now that's getting close to blasphemy.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Pet 1:1 tells us who Peter is talking to in 2 Pet 3:9. It is to them that have obtained like precious faith. Peter even includes himself, by using the word "usward".

This is a prime example of the necessity for born again believers to repent. The natural man, void of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and thinks that it is foolishness.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Choosing to follow Jesus has nothing to do with legalism. Choosing to follow Jesus has everything to do with being saved by grace. The loving grace and mercy of Jesus, freely available to whosoever will come to that fountain today. Come just as you are and completely surrender to Jesus today to have your sins washed away.

The natural man, before he is born again, and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will not respond to a spiritual invitation because he cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness. 1 Cor 2:14. God transforms a person while they are still spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. Eph 2. Mankind has no say in the matter, that is why it is by God's sovereign grace, with no help from anyone.

 

[CS1]

The natural man, before he is born again, and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will not respond to a spiritual invitation because he cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness. 1 Cor 2:14. God transforms a person while they are still spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. Eph 2. Mankind has no say in the matter, that is why it is by God's sovereign grace, with no help from anyone.

The problem with this is we do have a choice God who knows all, Has allowed us the freedom to say no. That is why human reasoning can't understand God's ability to know all yet still allow one to say no to HIM. Everyday many disobey God News Flash that is saying no to God including Christians. The Word of God shows repeatedly man's ability to not obey God. Did not God have a say in that matter?

Yes HE did. disobedience and sin produce their own reward. man does have to say in but can not save themselves. And putting in a box and saying we don't have a say in the matter When God gave us one is opinionated and limiting God.


Here are some things God said for us to DO meaning you have a choice in the matter.

• choose this day who you will serve
• Obey me
• follow me
• come to me
• seek me
• separate yourselves
• call out to me
• ask of me

If the mind-set is of "no say in the matter" you have to place it in context. man can turn from God, man has done so, and continues to. Did God know they would? Yes. Did God still provide the freedom to do so? Yes. Just because God knows what one will do does not mean God can't allow one to choose freely. That mind-set is presupposition that is founded in human reasoning not the truth.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The natural man, before he is born again, and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will not respond to a spiritual invitation because he cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness. 1 Cor 2:14. God transforms a person while they are still spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. Eph 2. Mankind has no say in the matter, that is why it is by God's sovereign grace, with no help from anyone.

Agreed.

John 1:12-13, tells us: "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"!
But does not Scripture say, "Whosoever will may come"? It does, but does this signify that everybody has the will to come? What of those who won't come? "Whosoever will may come" no more implies that fallen man has the power (in himself) to come, than "Stretch forth thine hand" implied that the man with the withered arm had ability (in himself) to comply. In and of himself the natural man has power to reject Christ; but in and of himself he has not the power to receive Christ. And why? Because he has a mind that is "enmity against" Him (Romans 8:7); because he has a heart that hates Him (John 15:18). Man chooses that which is according to his nature, and therefore before he will ever choose or prefer that which is Divine and spiritual a new nature must be imparted to him; in other words, he must be born again and it is the Holy Spirit that regenerates.
John 6:44 No man comes unto me, except the Father which has sent me draw (1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel] him., he infers it to be an incontrovertible fact, that the hearts of believers are so effectually governed from above, that they follow with undeviating affection.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The problem with this is we do have a choice God who knows all, Has allowed us the freedom to say no. That is why human reasoning can't understand God's ability to know all yet still allow one to say no to HIM. Everyday many disobey God News Flash that is saying no to God including Christians. The Word of God shows repeatedly man's ability to not obey God. Did not God have a say in that matter?

Yes HE did. disobedience and sin produce their own reward. man does have to say in but can not save themselves. And putting in a box and saying we don't have a say in the matter When God gave us one is opinionated and limiting God.


Here are some things God said for us to DO meaning you have a choice in the matter.

• choose this day who you will serve
• Obey me
• follow me
• come to me
• seek me
• separate yourselves
• call out to me
• ask of me

If the mind-set is of "no say in the matter" you have to place it in context. man can turn from God, man has done so, and continues to. Did God know they would? Yes. Did God still provide the freedom to do so? Yes. Just because God knows what one will do does not mean God can't allow one to choose freely. That mind-set is presupposition that is founded in human reasoning not the truth.

Most of the people who participate in this forum say that I promote Calvinism. I do not rely on other people's interpretation of the scriptures. I believe that scripture proves scripture, and therefore, rely only on the KJV of the scriptures as my only reference. I have never read John Calvin's writings, but people have told me that he believes that every action of mankind has been predestined by God. I do not agree that the scriptures teach that. I believe the scriptures teach that God has given mankind a choice in how he wants to live his life while he sojourns here on earth, and I also believe that the scriptures teach that God chooses who he will transform from the state of being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive by exchanging a person's stony heart to a heart of flesh (Esk 36:26-27), and putting his Holy Spirit within them.

The natural man, who is spiritually dead, before he has been transformed by God, will not seek the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). He, also, will not choose to serve a spiritual God. He will not obey a spiritual God. He will not follow Jesus's teaching, because he cannot discern the things of the Spirit. He will not come to a spiritual God. He will not seek God. He will not separate himself from sinning. He will not call out to a spiritual being. He will not ask about spiritual things.

All of the choices you have listed are choices that the spiritually born again person will make, or not make. All of us, as christians, do, at times, make some very sinful choices. When we do God chastens us, and we repent, this does not mean that we have lost our eternal deliverance, but only our fellowship with God, temporarily, until we repent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Agreed.

John 1:12-13, tells us: "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"!
But does not Scripture say, "Whosoever will may come"? It does, but does this signify that everybody has the will to come? What of those who won't come? "Whosoever will may come" no more implies that fallen man has the power (in himself) to come, than "Stretch forth thine hand" implied that the man with the withered arm had ability (in himself) to comply. In and of himself the natural man has power to reject Christ; but in and of himself he has not the power to receive Christ. And why? Because he has a mind that is "enmity against" Him (Romans 8:7); because he has a heart that hates Him (John 15:18). Man chooses that which is according to his nature, and therefore before he will ever choose or prefer that which is Divine and spiritual a new nature must be imparted to him; in other words, he must be born again and it is the Holy Spirit that regenerates.
John 6:44 No man comes unto me, except the Father which has sent me draw (1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel] him., he infers it to be an incontrovertible fact, that the hearts of believers are so effectually governed from above, that they follow with undeviating affection.

I think we see eye to eye on this matter. Salvation is "a delivery". We are delivered eternally by God's grace, and we are delivered many times by God as we sojourn here on earth. The reason so many well intended Christians tend to think that they have to do certain things to be delivered eternally, is the fact that they do not separate the two different deliverances.

 

[CS1]

Most of the people who participate in this forum say that I promote Calvinism. I do not rely on other people's interpretation of the scriptures. I believe that scripture proves scripture, and therefore, rely only on the KJV of the scriptures as my only reference. I have never read John Calvin's writings, but people have told me that he believes that every action of mankind has been predestined by God. I do not agree that the scriptures teach that. I believe the scriptures teach that God has given mankind a choice in how he wants to live his life while he sojourns here on earth, and I also believe that the scriptures teach that God chooses who he will transform from the state of being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive by exchanging a person's stony heart to a heart of flesh (Esk 36:26-27), and putting his Holy Spirit within them.

The natural man, who is spiritually dead, before he has been transformed by God, will not seek the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). He, also, will not choose to serve a spiritual God. He will not obey a spiritual God. He will not follow Jesus's teaching, because he cannot discern the things of the Spirit. He will not come to a spiritual God. He will not seek God. He will not separate himself from sinning. He will not call out to a spiritual being. He will not ask about spiritual things.

All of the choices you have listed are choices that the spiritually born again person will make, or not make. All of us, as christians, do, at times, make some very sinful choices. When we do God chastens us, and we repent, this does not mean that we have lost our eternal deliverance, but only our fellowship with God, temporarily, until we repent.

I would like to say I have not mentioned Calvin you did. I want that clear for the record . Secondly, I would humbly suggest that the Holy Spirit is the one who helps us know the truth. I know many who read the KJV and are biblically wrong contextually.

I disagree the list I provided can be done by those who are not saved Judas did them. Gd called us when we were yet sinners you answered the call as a sinner the grace through faith was given. This is instantaneous work of God that man can not comprehend.

FYI, KJV did not save you. Jesus did. it was not the KJV that preached to you to be saved. it was the gospel of Jesus Christ which Paul said " IS the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION."

death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I think we see eye to eye on this matter. Salvation is "a delivery"

Yes, I agree with everything you wrote except I would state that everything that occurs and will occur is God's plan (predetermined, predestination .. Eph. 1:11).
Aside: We are in the minority.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I would like to say I have not mentioned Calvin you did. I want that clear for the record . Secondly, I would humbly suggest that the Holy Spirit is the one who helps us know the truth. I know many who read the KJV and are biblically wrong contextually.

I disagree the list I provided can be done by those who are not saved Judas did them. Gd called us when we were yet sinners you answered the call as a sinner the grace through faith was given. This is instantaneous work of God that man can not comprehend.

FYI, KJV did not save you. Jesus did. it was not the KJV that preached to you to be saved. it was the gospel of Jesus Christ which Paul said " IS the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION."

death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He doesn’t promote Calvinism, he promotes hyper-Calvinism. He’s promoting hardshellism, as they deny the necessity of the preached gospel. They hold it from ppl until they use their “elect sense”(akin to Spider-Man’s spidey sense) and once they detect regeneration has occurred to someone(as if there’s a way to detect that), then, and only then, do they give them the gospel.

Utter foolishness!

 

[Nehemiah6]

The old testament saints were born again, the same way that the new testament saints are, and that is that God put his Holy Spirit within them in the new birth.

This is incorrect. The OT saints were justified by grace through faith, but the gift of the Holy Spirit could only be given to them after the finished work of Christ and His ascension into Heaven. And the New Birth could not occur until the Holy Spirit was given under the New Covenant.

Getting back to the title of the thread, to deny that Christ died for the sins of the whole world is to call God and Christ liars. There are numerous Scriptures which solidly establish the fact that Christ tasted death for every man. However only those who believe the Gospel are saved by grace.

 

[sushiseggrolls]

He died for everyone, and everyone has the cabability to recieve His grace, but it is up to them to pursue God and to accept and receive that forgiveness. The verse I think best correlates to this is 2 Corinthians 5:15, "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them."

 

[oyster67]

He died for everyone, and everyone has the cabability to recieve His grace, but it is up to them to pursue God and to accept and receive that forgiveness. The verse I think best correlates to this is 2 Corinthians 5:15, "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them."

Great post, @sushieggrolls ,and a warm welcome to CC!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing ... Romans 10:17
Premise 2: Faith is necessary for Salvation John 3:16
Premise 3: Not everyone hears the Gospel
Conclusion: Jesus did not die for people that did not hear the gospel as it is not possible that they could be saved
Conclusion: God did not die for everyone

Premise 1: God knows everything
Premise 2: God knows who will not believe salvifically
Premise 3: God does nothing in vain
Conclusion: God did not die in vain for unbelievers
Conclusion: God did not die for everyone

 

[Guojing]

He died for everyone, and everyone has the cabability to recieve His grace, but it is up to them to pursue God and to accept and receive that forgiveness. The verse I think best correlates to this is 2 Corinthians 5:15, "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them."

This is the tension between those who believed in limited atonement vs one who don't.

Romans 5:12-19 had Adam's disobedience being so powerful that, all his descendants, whether or not they acknowledged, pursue or accept and receive Adam, are automatically condemned into unrighteousness.

But the final Adam, even though he was obedient to the cross and died for us, still required man to make a deliberate choice to pursue and accept his work, in order to be righteous.

You see a slight asymmetry there?