The Purpose of Speaking in Tongues

[biker]

I do not believe in trinity, because Tertulian did. That Tertulian spokes in tongues is no proof that it was from the Holy Spirit. Many today speak in tongues without beeing believer.

Many today believe in the Trinity without being a Believer.

Not even sure why you choose to answer like you do. Every time you try to slam Speaking in Tongues you leave something else wide open that can get easily slammed. That proves how little of the Holy Spirit you think of it to always be slamming its Gifts.

 

[biker]

I do not believe in trinity, because Tertulian did. That Tertulian spokes in tongues is no proof that it was from the Holy Spirit. Many today speak in tongues without beeing believer.

Where in the Bible did it say the Gift of Tongues would end when man said it would end?

 

[Kavik]

if the interpreter is the only one that understands the message, how do you test the message to know if it is legit?

The interpreter was simply translating Hebrew to Aramaic (some perhaps to Greek). Nothing to 'test' per se - it was the interpreter's job/office. Sounds like you're thinking modern tongues-speech with respect to "interpretation".

 

[Kavik]

when Paul uses the phrase "tongues of angels", this is the only place in scripture that ties tongues to a non human language.

Yes, but the important thing to keep in mind here is that, that phrase as well as the others in the section of text are 100% pure hyperbole; in intended exaggeration to make a point - it's not meant to be taken literally. In traditional Jewish belief, angels could only speak one language (and a real one at that), the sacerdotal language of Judaism; Hebrew. Paul would have known this.

 

[Kavik]

to bad the book of Acts was not written in the 1900's or was 1 Cor chapter 12 through 14 OR the words of Jesus in John chapter 14& 15 OR John chapter 1 where Jesus is the one who "Baptizes in the Holy Spirit. Your opinion is not Biblical, it is bias

No, but the Pentecostal doctrine on tongues was completely redefined between 1906 and 1907. Xenoglossy one day, 'prayer language' the next.

 

[Kavik]

ܡܘܕܐ ܐܢܐ ܠܐܠܗܐ ܕܝܬܝܪ ܡܢ ܟܠܟܘܢ ܡܡܠܠ ܐܢܐ ܒܠܫܢܐ
18 I give thanks unto Alaha {God} that I, more than all, speak in Spiritual languages,

The Syriac seems to do the same thing as the KJV only from a different angle. Paul's letter was written in Greek. The words he used was 'glôssa' = 'language' - nothing "spiritual" implied. KJV does this same sort of thing with the addition of the "unknown".

 

[Kavik]

when people try and make the claim that tongues is a special non human spirit prayer etc language, they go to the "angel language" passage.

Indeed, yes. Another "go to" is the added word "unknown" - makes the word "language" it's attached to seem much more mysterious.

 

[Kavik]

The Language I am using was the Language scholars believe Jesus and His Disciples spoke.

Well, not quite - Syriac is a later development from Aramaic. Some of its speakers call it Aramaic or Neo-Aramaic, but it's not quite the same language. Sort of like comparing say Dutch to Frisian - they're pretty close, but not quite the same.

 

[Kavik]

what about " unknown tongues"

The “unknown” part, as I’m sure you know, was a relatively recent addition to the text.

Most people however, are not aware of the history behind its inclusion….

To paraphrase from an article written on this subject…. In a nutshell, the “unknown tongues”, or sometimes translated as “other tongues” of the English Bible has a rich tradition that dates back to the earliest days of the Reformation.

The creation of this idiom, “unknown tongues” had powerful political and religious overtones. The idiom was created by the early Protestants and aimed at the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church asserted its authority through the exclusive use of Latin while the Protestants volleyed back that Latin was speaking in an “unknown” tongue that no one understood (they really weren’t all that wrong – Latin was far from understood by the average peasant).

“Unknown” to the word “tongues” was added in Paul’s famous Corinthian text to win the Reformation argument.

The thought behind doing so was to wrest Catholics of their self-proclaimed ‘divine authority’. Over the centuries this original intent got lost and became reinterpreted as a mystical expression meaning “tongues” as some sort of heavenly language.

From research, one of the most crucial observations found that the KJV of the Bible established “unknown tongues” in the Book of 1 Corinthians as a universal term in English speaking Christendom.

The Tyndale Bible begins to add the adjective ‘unknown’ in about 1534, but not significantly. The Geneva Bible expands on this pattern in 1557 and the KJ Bible entrenched the phrase in 1611.

In short, it was added to Protestant versions of the Bible (particularly the KJV) specifically as anti-Catholic rhetoric.

 

[garee]

Where in the Bible did it say the Gift of Tongues would end when man said it would end?

Who said the effect of God's word the gift of prophecy, the tongue of God has ceased ?

It could be helpful to look at the foundation of the doctrine. Those who make sinless sounds a fall backward are given the reason. Will you make the foundation found in Isiah 28 without effect? and destroy the spirit of judgement?

 

[CS1]

I mean not the gift of speaking in tongues, but the gift of discerning the spirits.

you do not have the gift of discerning of spirits. If you did you would not suggest those who are seeking the power of the Holy Spirit is of the devil.

 

[notuptome]

Paul told Timothy in First Timothy to teach godly edification in faith verse 4 chapter one.
Paul taught many things to Timothy and Titus.

Paul said to 1 tim 2:1 pray supplications, prayers, intercessions, andgiving of thanks be made for all men,
men everywhere pray with lifted hands.
Paul also instructed :
"Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. 15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.
1tim 4:14

In Second Timothy Paul again says to him:

Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

What Gift? If not the one Paul spoke about the first Letter. Here is Paul teaching on that ye again. I guess you missed that huh?.

Paul also said:

2tim 3:16-17

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

FYI Paul was not speaking of the KJV when he said this He was talking about the Old Testament. Paul provide much instruction from the Holy Spirit and the use of the gifts that were given to Timothy by the laying on of hands sorry you did not see that.

At no time did Paul teach Timothy or accommodate sin. Rebuking and reproving sin is often not a warm and fuzzy process.

Paul never told Timothy to speak in tongues nor does scripture give us any evidence that Timothy spoke in tongues.

Your obsessive hatred of the KJV is lost on me. The KJV is only one translation of the original manuscripts. I cannot read and converse in the ancient Hebrew and Greek so I thank God for a reasonably accurate English translation. I do not search for a translation that allows for interpretation to suit a specific doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Yes, here and there you've quoted Scripture, in between your mocking, criticism, derision, dismissal, and condemnation... all "for the cause of Christ". At least have the integrity to remove that hypocritical blab and just put your name.

Once again you demonstrate a delight in the barb and quip because you lack any specific doctrine. If Gods word is mocking you then you have space to repent.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

I don't believe Speaking in Tongues has to do with prophecy.
What if the preacher was committing adultery and Tongues and interpretation revealed this (not as the preacher himself, but someone in leadership position)?
That is not prophecy.
That is God revealing a wrong doing.

Speaking prophecy, the tongue or or word of God is the spiritual language called our new tongue. The gospel tongue In Christ name shall they cast out devils. we plant the seed

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Signs as metaphors used in various parables follow after one believes to show they were given the faith of Christ to make it possible to believe.. Outward signs that follows after those who make senseless sounds and fall backward. They are given to us to bring the foundation of the teaching found in Isaiah 28.

From my experience those who show no interest in the foundation repeat the matter filling themselves with self edification over and over . No such thing as a sign "Look I did gift"?

We walk by faith the unseen gift. All die not receiving the propmised as our living daily hope of a new incorruptible body . we wait with the help of his long suffering and cry out for strengthen to be yoked with him to lesson the work of sufferings.

Study the foundation of the doctrine to find purpose. .No need to wonder.

 

[biker]

The Syriac seems to do the same thing as the KJV only from a different angle. Paul's letter was written in Greek. The words he used was 'glôssa' = 'language' - nothing "spiritual" implied. KJV does this same sort of thing with the addition of the "unknown".

I would venture to also conclude to, that verses like this:

1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


...tells the interpreter this is not human language Paul is discussing. They could easily conclude by the entire sentence structure and thoughts of Paul that this was about the Gift of Tongues.

I believe that is why the Aramaic/English have used proper wording here to indicate this means the Language of God, not of man.

 

[biker]

Speaking prophecy, the tongue or or word of God is the spiritual language called our new tongue. The gospel tongue In Christ name shall they cast out devils. we plant the seed

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Signs as metaphors used in various parables follow after one believes to show they were given the faith of Christ to make it possible to believe.. Outward signs that follows after those who make senseless sounds and fall backward. They are given to us to bring the foundation of the teaching found in Isaiah 28.

From my experience those who show no interest in the foundation repeat the matter filling themselves with self edification over and over . No such thing as a sign "Look I did gift"?

We walk by faith the unseen gift. All die not receiving the propmised as our living daily hope of a new incorruptible body . we wait with the help of his long suffering and cry out for strengthen to be yoked with him to lesson the work of sufferings.

Study the foundation of the doctrine to find purpose. .No need to wonder.

Even though I am a fan of that verse, it's a question mark to whether it's from the original text or a later add on. I know the meaning, but to use it in a debate is opening a door for those who oppose. No need to add fuel to an already raging fire.

 

[biker]

I would venture to also conclude to, that verses like this:

1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


...tells the interpreter this is not human language Paul is discussing. They could easily conclude by the entire sentence structure and thoughts of Paul that this was about the Gift of Tongues.

I believe that is why the Aramaic/English have used proper wording here to indicate this means the Language of God, not of man.

And we know from Paul's view here that the Gift of Tongues is both important and vital to the Believer. He spends a total of 8 verses on this subject to emphasize the importance. Which is why I know it still is active today, like the other things Paul emphasized are still active today.

 

[CS1]

At no time did Paul teach Timothy or accommodate sin. Rebuking and reproving sin is often not a warm and fuzzy process.

Paul never told Timothy to speak in tongues nor does scripture give us any evidence that Timothy spoke in tongues.

Your obsessive hatred of the KJV is lost on me. The KJV is only one translation of the original manuscripts. I cannot read and converse in the ancient Hebrew and Greek so I thank God for a reasonably accurate English translation. I do not search for a translation that allows for interpretation to suit a specific doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

an at no time here did anyone accommodate sin. suggest to a You are rebuking and reporting in this setting is ridiculous. Sick to the word of God. You have issues with those who you see doing something unBiblical take to them. Don't build a false narrative. Don't act like you are here to correct the heretical. Paul never told Timothy not to speak in tongues. And in 1cor chapter 14:39 Paul said FORBID NOT speaking in tongues how about dat?. FYI I just quoted the KJV your false accusation is unfounded and you sir, are a liar. You should adhere to what you say and stop with your hypocrisy.

you have not proven your 1cor 13:8-10 Position that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. From the KJV. You have to allegorize it.

 

[CS1]

You said, that azusa was were People tried to controle God. So without azusa we would not have this teaching. And when you then observe how this movement Split and changed their teachings so that they Fit. What else then man made?
F.e. The oness pentecostals which Split around 10 years later because they claim that if someone is not speaking in tongues he is not saved.
They have today around 25 000 000 members.

I determined not that speaking in tongues endet in the past. The people in the past saw that it endet somehow. When the montanism began in around the year 160 the people said that this lookslike as it was in the apostolic time. But the founder was an heretic with false teaching and claiming himself as Holy Spirit.
If you read reports about speaking in tongues in the history, then you could recognize 2 things. Mostly it came in groups we would say cults. And second not as an result of baptised with the Holy Spirit. This teaching came up in 1900 and began with topeka. What now is man made?

completely untrue your opinion doesn't change the word of God. It does not change the words of the Lord Jesus Christ found in Mark 1 and John 14-1 chapters. it does not remove 1Corinthians chapter 12 to 14 on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. You know nothing of the historical context of what Azusa street was. in the 1980s many of us were able to hear from those who were there.

Reverend. Seymour read from the Book of Acts chapters 1 & 2 and said " Jesus is still doing this today and we can ask HIM for it. They ask Jesus for the empowering to be a witness. You would have it though those who were saved already asked God for the empowering of the Holy Spirit and the devil overpowered God and gave them a devil instead.

You would have one think IF they are saved and seek God for an answer from the word of God in prayer The devil is greater than God and will give you a devil.

You would have one think That the action in the Book of Acts died out and is no longer happening because YOU have not seen it to validate what God said we all can have and to ask for as Jesus said to do.

You think the action of some heretical's and mature, those in error make The real power of the Holy Spirit non-existence.

You are wrong.

 

[Kavik]

tells the interpreter this is not human language Paul is discussing.

When it comes to something spoken, there are no Biblical references to "tongues" that do not refer to, or that cannot be explained in light of, real, rational language(s).

The interpreter is one who knows the language of the speaker (whatever it may be, say Gaulish) and is simply translating it into the vernacular (in Corinth, this would be Greek). so that all may benefit from what the speaker is saying/praying, etc.