The Purpose of Speaking in Tongues
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S
...to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
This discerning of spirits is a supernatural gift of recognizing demonic spirits while doing the work of the ministry. This gift is as powerful as healing, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues and working of miracles. There are examples in the book of Acts that we can use to identify what it looks like in operation, The slave girl with the fortune telling spirit. Also maybe Ananiahas and Saphira who Peter looked on and said that satan had filled their hearts to lie to the Holy Ghost. Of course in that example they died.
discerning evil spirits by this gift results in dramatic exposure. It is useful in a charismatic church to keep the false gifts and false manifestations at bay.
Just because we use language like "that man has a good spirit" does not mean that Paul was intending this type of interpretation. This is one of those scriptures that are often misinterpreted because of our own cultural phrases. In hermeneutics is necessary to ask what the author intended by the word spirit and what did the reader of his time understand by this not how we hear the word used in common modern usage. I think you will find that the majority of scholars and commentaries conclude that the word means evil spirits not motives and dispositions of human spirits.
That is all I will say about it, I think I have covered it pretty well. I will not let it get between us if you still disagree with my interpretation.
This discerning of spirits is a supernatural gift of recognizing demonic spirits while doing the work of the ministry. This gift is as powerful as healing, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues and working of miracles. There are examples in the book of Acts that we can use to identify what it looks like in operation, The slave girl with the fortune telling spirit. Also maybe Ananiahas and Saphira who Peter looked on and said that satan had filled their hearts to lie to the Holy Ghost. Of course in that example they died.
discerning evil spirits by this gift results in dramatic exposure. It is useful in a charismatic church to keep the false gifts and false manifestations at bay.
Just because we use language like "that man has a good spirit" does not mean that Paul was intending this type of interpretation. This is one of those scriptures that are often misinterpreted because of our own cultural phrases. In hermeneutics is necessary to ask what the author intended by the word spirit and what did the reader of his time understand by this not how we hear the word used in common modern usage. I think you will find that the majority of scholars and commentaries conclude that the word means evil spirits not motives and dispositions of human spirits.
That is all I will say about it, I think I have covered it pretty well. I will not let it get between us if you still disagree with my interpretation.
Introduction to Discernment of Spirits
St. Ignatius of Loyola began to learn about the discernment of spirits while convalescing from serious battle injuries. He noticed different interior movements as he imagined his future. In his autobiography, Ignatius writes (in the third person):
He did not consider nor did he stop to examine this difference until one day his eyes were partially opened and he began to wonder at this difference and to reflect upon it. From experience he knew that some thoughts left him sad while others made him happy, and little by little he came to perceive the different spirits that were moving him; one coming from the devil, the other coming from God (Autobiography, no. 8).
When Ignatius reversed this thinking onto others, we get what I was stating and verified from:
by Joseph A. Tetlow, SJ
Human beings are moved by a dense complex of motives, both in the things we do from day to day and in our big decisions. What drives a young woman to become a doctor or a young man to be an engineer? Many things contribute: success, altruism, interest. Or what drives a woman who has smoked for years to quit or an obese man to get thin? Again, many things contribute: fear of death, desire for health, concern of family. But they all interact in a kind of movement that eventually drives the person to act. Master Ignatius learned to think about those dense complexes of motives—images, ideas, attractions, revulsions—as “spirits.”
St. Ignatius of Loyola began to learn about the discernment of spirits while convalescing from serious battle injuries. He noticed different interior movements as he imagined his future. In his autobiography, Ignatius writes (in the third person):
He did not consider nor did he stop to examine this difference until one day his eyes were partially opened and he began to wonder at this difference and to reflect upon it. From experience he knew that some thoughts left him sad while others made him happy, and little by little he came to perceive the different spirits that were moving him; one coming from the devil, the other coming from God (Autobiography, no. 8).
When Ignatius reversed this thinking onto others, we get what I was stating and verified from:
by Joseph A. Tetlow, SJ
Human beings are moved by a dense complex of motives, both in the things we do from day to day and in our big decisions. What drives a young woman to become a doctor or a young man to be an engineer? Many things contribute: success, altruism, interest. Or what drives a woman who has smoked for years to quit or an obese man to get thin? Again, many things contribute: fear of death, desire for health, concern of family. But they all interact in a kind of movement that eventually drives the person to act. Master Ignatius learned to think about those dense complexes of motives—images, ideas, attractions, revulsions—as “spirits.”
I don't know what you spoke and I don't suggest I know whether or not it was tongues. I'm guessing you stepped out in faith/trust. I would call that a good thing, but I also understand that good effort doesn't always mean success.
One time when I was young and out doing chores, I was rejoicing and thankful and wanted to express that to God and I remembered how it was written "Sing unto the Lord a new song". So I pondered the idea of that being a commandment. So I tried it. What came out of my mouth might have qualified as "new" (because I don't think anyone would use it a second time) but I certainly wasn't going to say it qualified as a "song". (Not very melodic). and I said "Ok, I tried, but I'm not going to do that again (unless he showed me how to do it). So I can understand if what you tried wasn't tongues.
BTW, my attempt at a new song was before I knew about speaking with new tongues... I just knew the reference in Psalms and I was going for a new melody from my heart with words of praise and thanks and love. So I wasn't going for anything regarding "speaking in tongues"... just trying to sing a new song.
I also do not find it directly recorded like that in the bible. The bible never claimed to record every event, miracle, scenario, or detail. You should really consider what it means to suggest that "if it isn't in the bible, it can't be true". (For example, I don't see "Germany" OR the USA named in scripture, so does that mean we don't exist? No.). But the bible does record that even Jesus needed to pray for a blind man twice before he saw clearly. Not everyone receives the same way. Some didn't need to see miracles to believe...but some did. Jesus meets people where they are.
As for "teaching" tongues. That can't be done. A person YIELDS to it, not learns it. And everyone's tongues are different. Someone can offer advice(or knowledge, teaching) to help a person get past their fears (fear of the unknown, fear of doing something stupid, fear of doing it wrong, etc), but tongues itself is a gift, not an education. And still being honest and open with you, I actually asked God why the Spirit sat on each of them on the day of Pentecost. He said he had to put a little pressure on them until their resistance gave way. (paraphrased, of course).
And I realize people might pounce on that last tidbit, but I was smart enough to ask for something even better much earlier than that. I noticed that "The Lord spake unto Moses as a man speaketh unto his friend". So I asked God if He'd do that with me too. - Matt.7:7
I'll try to address your other points in another reply.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
One time when I was young and out doing chores, I was rejoicing and thankful and wanted to express that to God and I remembered how it was written "Sing unto the Lord a new song". So I pondered the idea of that being a commandment. So I tried it. What came out of my mouth might have qualified as "new" (because I don't think anyone would use it a second time) but I certainly wasn't going to say it qualified as a "song". (Not very melodic). and I said "Ok, I tried, but I'm not going to do that again (unless he showed me how to do it). So I can understand if what you tried wasn't tongues.
BTW, my attempt at a new song was before I knew about speaking with new tongues... I just knew the reference in Psalms and I was going for a new melody from my heart with words of praise and thanks and love. So I wasn't going for anything regarding "speaking in tongues"... just trying to sing a new song.
I also do not find it directly recorded like that in the bible. The bible never claimed to record every event, miracle, scenario, or detail. You should really consider what it means to suggest that "if it isn't in the bible, it can't be true". (For example, I don't see "Germany" OR the USA named in scripture, so does that mean we don't exist? No.). But the bible does record that even Jesus needed to pray for a blind man twice before he saw clearly. Not everyone receives the same way. Some didn't need to see miracles to believe...but some did. Jesus meets people where they are.
As for "teaching" tongues. That can't be done. A person YIELDS to it, not learns it. And everyone's tongues are different. Someone can offer advice(or knowledge, teaching) to help a person get past their fears (fear of the unknown, fear of doing something stupid, fear of doing it wrong, etc), but tongues itself is a gift, not an education. And still being honest and open with you, I actually asked God why the Spirit sat on each of them on the day of Pentecost. He said he had to put a little pressure on them until their resistance gave way. (paraphrased, of course).
And I realize people might pounce on that last tidbit, but I was smart enough to ask for something even better much earlier than that. I noticed that "The Lord spake unto Moses as a man speaketh unto his friend". So I asked God if He'd do that with me too. - Matt.7:7
I'll try to address your other points in another reply.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I understand what you're saying and do agree in the general point you are trying to make here.
Speaking in Tongues is like many things concerning God. There is a design and specific purpose for it, but it still can be misused. And those who generally misuse use it have convince their follows it is truth. But if the followers were actual Students of God, not students of the false teachers, they would not fall for such nonsense.
Who cares what other groups teach? If you don't want speaking in tongues, then don't ask for it.
Speaking in tongues does something... in fact it's the only thing biblically defined as Spirit-prayer--> "If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth" He never says that about praying in the understanding, being sincere, weeping or anything else.
If someone wants to try to get into heaven without the ability to worship in the spirit, that's up to them. If they want to claim something else is worshiping in the spirit (like being sincere) that the bible doesn't say is "spirit"-anything.. that's up to them, too
I know its available to everyone, and I encourage everyone to get it. It's still available to you, too as far as I know. Everyone needs the ability to worship God in spirit and truth. But it is truly a dangerous thing to stand between someone and the opportunity to receive what the Holy Ghost has to offer (by speaking against it).
The following verse still applies today and is why I offered fair warning in Post #343:
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. - Matthew 23:13 KJV
No one is forced to speak well of tongues. (People could just avoid this thread). And no one is being forced to speak against it. <-- that's why the person has to VOLUNTEER for the punishments of doing it. (Don't volunteer.)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Speaking in tongues does something... in fact it's the only thing biblically defined as Spirit-prayer--> "If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth" He never says that about praying in the understanding, being sincere, weeping or anything else.
If someone wants to try to get into heaven without the ability to worship in the spirit, that's up to them. If they want to claim something else is worshiping in the spirit (like being sincere) that the bible doesn't say is "spirit"-anything.. that's up to them, too
I know its available to everyone, and I encourage everyone to get it. It's still available to you, too as far as I know. Everyone needs the ability to worship God in spirit and truth. But it is truly a dangerous thing to stand between someone and the opportunity to receive what the Holy Ghost has to offer (by speaking against it).
The following verse still applies today and is why I offered fair warning in Post #343:
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. - Matthew 23:13 KJV
No one is forced to speak well of tongues. (People could just avoid this thread). And no one is being forced to speak against it. <-- that's why the person has to VOLUNTEER for the punishments of doing it. (Don't volunteer.)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Honestly I only recently found out I have the gift. I always speak to God with my heart expressing things so deep and intimate that words cannot describe it things that the human tongue cannot speak and sometimes even in my weeping and hurt whether for myself or I suddenly feel like someone somewhere is broken alone and has no hope and suffering greatly inside I just weep as if I can feel their pain-it does hurt pretty badly sometimes.
And then I will pray with all my soul for him to go them and embrace them in his love .It was in this debate I quotes 1 corinthians 14 and then as I read it again I was like wait isn't that what I do? It spoke of how when one speaks in tongues to edify themselves it is spoken to god and not understood by anyone else because it is spoken by spirit but there also is a tongues that when meant for the church requires interpretation
And then I will pray with all my soul for him to go them and embrace them in his love .It was in this debate I quotes 1 corinthians 14 and then as I read it again I was like wait isn't that what I do? It spoke of how when one speaks in tongues to edify themselves it is spoken to god and not understood by anyone else because it is spoken by spirit but there also is a tongues that when meant for the church requires interpretation
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No I do not agree that this is what Paul meant at all.
That explanation is not discernment of spirits. It is not even discernment. This explanation is simply psychology and the study of human behaviors. This does not require a gift of the Holy Spirit to master.
The gift of discerning of spirits is not that of discerning what motivates a person, it is identifying when evil spirits are active in others and confronting them such as casting them out or rebuking the person who has given the evil spirit control. This is a dramatic manifestation and is not done simply in ones own thoughts.
It is a gift that is given for the work of the ministry. It is manifested as one goes about that work whether in the church or in evangelism. It is not something you would encounter every day. Well you might if you lived and ministered in Haiti.
That explanation is not discernment of spirits. It is not even discernment. This explanation is simply psychology and the study of human behaviors. This does not require a gift of the Holy Spirit to master.
The gift of discerning of spirits is not that of discerning what motivates a person, it is identifying when evil spirits are active in others and confronting them such as casting them out or rebuking the person who has given the evil spirit control. This is a dramatic manifestation and is not done simply in ones own thoughts.
It is a gift that is given for the work of the ministry. It is manifested as one goes about that work whether in the church or in evangelism. It is not something you would encounter every day. Well you might if you lived and ministered in Haiti.
S
I see a bigger gap between the discerning of spirits that Paul was referring to and the explanation of evil spirits being behind our negative thoughts. It is not a subtle difference to me, it is two different scenarios altogether. The difference between recognizing the evil spirit in the slave woman and casting it out verses simply acknowledging that a thought that contradicts the word of God might be a suggestion from an evil spirit.
However, if we are recognizing that we are in a battle of the mind and under a demonic attack of some sort I could concede that we are crossing over to what could be in the same category of the supernatural gift called discerning of spirits. This is definitely within the same context, and yet I still think Paul is talking about discerning evil spirits that are active in others. It is naturally assumed that the person operating in the gift of discerning of spirits for the edification of all would not be under the control of or battling control of spirits in his own mind.
However, if we are recognizing that we are in a battle of the mind and under a demonic attack of some sort I could concede that we are crossing over to what could be in the same category of the supernatural gift called discerning of spirits. This is definitely within the same context, and yet I still think Paul is talking about discerning evil spirits that are active in others. It is naturally assumed that the person operating in the gift of discerning of spirits for the edification of all would not be under the control of or battling control of spirits in his own mind.
I am not saying I don't buy what you have been claiming the entire time. I look at the basis that we cannot serve 2 masters. In that concept, it's easy to look at what motivates a person and define it in a spiritual sense. I rather simplify than to keep something at a complicated level of understanding.
I'm not addressing a topic of yours in this post, but I did want to add this.
And I guess I will start with a true story because I learn from things that have happened. And yes, I'm sharing a conversation with God and some people claim God doesn't talk anymore...but the bible tells us to talk of his wondrous works, and I find it wondrous that he takes time out of his day to commune with me...so I talk about it.
On another Christian chat site, we were constantly facing arguments from people who described themselves as Atheists. After a while I got annoyed with the situation and asked God "WHY, if these people hate you so much, do they come to a place set up to talk about nothing but you?" He said "They may not want me but they want to talk about something important... and deep down they know I am important."
That same thing happens with yourself and others on threads like this. There's no danger of people 'catching' "speaking in tongues" (as if it were a disease). And if it doesn't exist, there's no way they could receive it. So there's really no danger of saying "Hey, if you ask for this God will give it to you and here's what it does". And people can't very well claim that they are here trying to teach truth to others because if that was their goal, they could start a thread teaching any truth they please without the association with speaking in tongues.
But you know it's important.
I don't know the hearts of individuals on here, but I recognize a few things about people who resist tongues, which you can see also in people who reject worshipping God (religion) in general. And I'm not saying they or you are necessarily going so far as to blaspheme (which is to say it is evil or from the devil). But here's a couple of scenarios of people who have been around tongues:
Group #1) Some people have seen some good/truth, and may want it, but have had a bad experience (and there can be extreme cases of this). Then the person does the guilt-by-association thing and blames anybody who ever had anything to do with whoever did them harm. Basically they are afraid to go near that piece of good/truth for fear of another bad experience (like being shamed, overly pressured, or told they must not be good enough for God... instead of being helped). These will hang around and argue hoping someone can actually convince them that it IS real, it IS for them, and they ARE "good" enough. The other option, if not brought in, is to try to stomp out the doctrine so they won't feel bad for not having it themselves.<-- this is the group I think you are in. (Which is why I still try to be open and honest with you)
Group #2) Other people may have seen some good/truth, but found out that it takes effort, or makes them feel guilty about sins they want to hang on to, or some other thing that they want to get away from. That makes them even more miserable than when they started, and they want to blame someone other than themselves...and most importantly...they are still left with the problem of the good/truth that hangs over their head because they willingly walked away from it or rejected it without even trying. These try even harder to stomp out the doctrine because they don't want it themselves (so there's no hope of relief through alignment) so their only hope is to bash it into non-existence...which won't happen with something real. This is similar to what Judas Iscariot tried. He didn't have to sell out Jesus...he could have just walked away...but Jesus' very existence made him feel condemned, so he tried to destroy Jesus. <---this is not a good group to join.
Obviously this doesn't cover everyone, like people who haven't encountered "speaking in tongues" ... and people can switch their stance as long as they are still alive and haven't actually blasphemed the Holy Ghost. (I kind of pray I never meet someone guilty of that). But that's some real scenarios.
Tongues isn't going away until Jesus returns. So people get to choose how to respond to its existence. (I recommend ask and receive.
)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
And I guess I will start with a true story because I learn from things that have happened. And yes, I'm sharing a conversation with God and some people claim God doesn't talk anymore...but the bible tells us to talk of his wondrous works, and I find it wondrous that he takes time out of his day to commune with me...so I talk about it.
On another Christian chat site, we were constantly facing arguments from people who described themselves as Atheists. After a while I got annoyed with the situation and asked God "WHY, if these people hate you so much, do they come to a place set up to talk about nothing but you?" He said "They may not want me but they want to talk about something important... and deep down they know I am important."
That same thing happens with yourself and others on threads like this. There's no danger of people 'catching' "speaking in tongues" (as if it were a disease). And if it doesn't exist, there's no way they could receive it. So there's really no danger of saying "Hey, if you ask for this God will give it to you and here's what it does". And people can't very well claim that they are here trying to teach truth to others because if that was their goal, they could start a thread teaching any truth they please without the association with speaking in tongues.
But you know it's important.
I don't know the hearts of individuals on here, but I recognize a few things about people who resist tongues, which you can see also in people who reject worshipping God (religion) in general. And I'm not saying they or you are necessarily going so far as to blaspheme (which is to say it is evil or from the devil). But here's a couple of scenarios of people who have been around tongues:
Group #1) Some people have seen some good/truth, and may want it, but have had a bad experience (and there can be extreme cases of this). Then the person does the guilt-by-association thing and blames anybody who ever had anything to do with whoever did them harm. Basically they are afraid to go near that piece of good/truth for fear of another bad experience (like being shamed, overly pressured, or told they must not be good enough for God... instead of being helped). These will hang around and argue hoping someone can actually convince them that it IS real, it IS for them, and they ARE "good" enough. The other option, if not brought in, is to try to stomp out the doctrine so they won't feel bad for not having it themselves.<-- this is the group I think you are in. (Which is why I still try to be open and honest with you)
Group #2) Other people may have seen some good/truth, but found out that it takes effort, or makes them feel guilty about sins they want to hang on to, or some other thing that they want to get away from. That makes them even more miserable than when they started, and they want to blame someone other than themselves...and most importantly...they are still left with the problem of the good/truth that hangs over their head because they willingly walked away from it or rejected it without even trying. These try even harder to stomp out the doctrine because they don't want it themselves (so there's no hope of relief through alignment) so their only hope is to bash it into non-existence...which won't happen with something real. This is similar to what Judas Iscariot tried. He didn't have to sell out Jesus...he could have just walked away...but Jesus' very existence made him feel condemned, so he tried to destroy Jesus. <---this is not a good group to join.
Obviously this doesn't cover everyone, like people who haven't encountered "speaking in tongues" ... and people can switch their stance as long as they are still alive and haven't actually blasphemed the Holy Ghost. (I kind of pray I never meet someone guilty of that). But that's some real scenarios.
Tongues isn't going away until Jesus returns. So people get to choose how to respond to its existence. (I recommend ask and receive.
)Love in Jesus,
Kelby
You're saying we can't trust the only book that describes what it is like when a person receives the Holy Ghost. And nowhere in the bible (that know of) says Acts is a transitionary period. That's basically saying there are three covenents, not old and new.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
To me, its the fall of Israel, how they, by the end of the last chapter, has totally rejected Christ as their Messiah.