"Not by works" - false!

[posthuman]

I have no idea what your point is

well,

My Bible says what most if not all versions say in John 3:16.

that's my point.





you're quoting John 3:16 to me as tho it says something that it does not say.
you're operating under a premise that i can't find in the Bible:





i don't think i believe anything by conscious choice.
i either do believe, or i don't believe.

i can become convinced of something that i did not previously believe - but @jaybo, if that's what happens, it takes an outside force acting on me, causing me to believe. it's not of myself.

i have free will. i can choose to act like i believe something that i really don't. i can choose to act like i don't believe something that i really do. i can keep on doing that for decades, and it can look really convincing. i can fool people; i can fool myself. but i don't make a conscious decision to believe anything.

try it.
go outside and see if you can decide to believe there's no sky.
don't worry; your will is free -- you can always decide to believe the sky exists again later.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Man is incapable of choosing to Believe for Salvation

The partial list state Man is incapable of choosing to Believe for Salvation
1. “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
2. “How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” (Matthew 12:34)
3. “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:18)
4. “‘Who then can be saved?’ But Jesus looked at them and said to them, ‘With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:25-26)
5. John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light
6. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
7. “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
8. “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.” (John 8:43)
9. “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” (John 12:39-40)
10. Romans 3:11 No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.
11. Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it.
12. “the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.” (Romans 8:7)
13. “So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:8)
14. “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The following verses make sinners responsible to come to Christ. Notice, there are NO VERSES that clearly state sinners can or are able to come to Christ.
1. John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
2. Acts 2:21 And it shall be that whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [invoking, adoring, and worshiping the Lord—Christ] shall be saved.
3. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31)
4, Romans 10:13 For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.
5. 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
6. Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

First Premise: God commands sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.
Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we’re unable to do.)
Conclusion: Therefore, sinners are able to repent, believe & come to Christ.

There is no proof for the 2nd premise. It’s assuming what you’re trying to prove (circular reasoning).
Just because Jesus tells us to do something, does not mean we have the ability to do it. This is shown by the following verses giving commands that man cannot do:
1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.
2 Corinthians 10:5 and take every thought captive to obey Christ
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God
1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not”.

Summary
Scripture says man is incapable of believing salvifically.
Although there are verses asking people to believe, there is not verse saying man is capable. The implication that God would not ask man to do something that is impossible is shown to be false by verses that clearly show God ask man to do things that are impossible.

Conclusion
Scripture clearly shows man CANNOT save himself.
Scripture states man is saved by FAITH.
Thus, man can believe of his own will.
Scripture clearly states man can be saved.
Therefore, God must do the work of believing by changing man's will (heart) such that we will believe.
Since salvation is totally a work of God, then who is saved is determined by God.
That salvation is COMPLETELY God's will as to who is saved and not man's will is further proven by:

1. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.
2. John 3:27 John replied, “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven [for there is no other source than the sovereign will of God].
3. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.
4. Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion [nations cannot “will” or “exert”], but on God, who has mercy.
5. Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ,
6. Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

 

[xtramart]

As non-Christian or should I say un-churched, I am totally confused about what Christians regard as Grace, and what is human religious endeavors?

 

[posthuman]

Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me:​

Would you indeed annul My judgment?
Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?
Have you an arm like God?
Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor,
and array yourself with glory and beauty.
Disperse the rage of your wrath;
look on everyone who is proud, and humble him.
Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low;
tread down the wicked in their place.
Hide them in the dust together,
bind their faces in hidden darkness.
Then I will also confess to you
that your own right hand can save you.​

(Job 40:7-14)

​

 

[Magenta]

As non-Christian or should I say un-churched, I am totally confused about what Christians regard as Grace, and what is human religious endeavors?

Grace is unmerited favor.

 

[Fastfredy0]

As non-Christian or should I say un-churched, I am totally confused about what Christians regard as Grace, and what is human religious endeavors?

Grace represents what God has done and will do for those who trust the Savior; it must function apart from all human works or cooperation; thus God gets all the glory. Nothing of merit need be added to that which is perfect forever. It represents the uncompromised, unrestricted, unrecompensed, loving favor of God toward sinners. It is an unearned blessing. It is a gratuity. God is absolutely unshackled in expressing His infinite love by His infinite grace (1) through the death of His Lamb by whom every limitation which human sin could impose has been dispelled, (2) through the provision which offers salvation as a gift by which human obligation has been forever dismissed, and (3) through the divine decree by which human merit has been forever deposed. Grace is the limitless, unrestrained love of God for the lost, acting in full compliance with the exact and unchangeable demands of His own righteousness through the sacrificial death of Christ. Grace is more than love; it is love set absolutely free and made to be a triumphant victor, propitiator and reconciler of a righteous of God against the sinner.

gotquestions.com is an excellent site to get answers to questions for protestants
I believe the people posting here are Christians. Some would be better to answer your questions than others. That site probably is your best bet ... but I am sure people here would be happy to state their beliefs. Again, Some would be better to answer your questions than others.

 

[Fastfredy0]

(Job 40:7-14)

Job had claimed God was unjust. In answering this challenge God did not argue with Job. He simply asked Job questions that made it obvious to Job that he was unable to do what he had blamed God for not doing. In criticizing God, Job had placed himself in a position over God. Therefore God now reminded Job that he was not superior or even equal to God (vv. 9, 11-13). If he were superior or equal, Job could deliver himself from his own misery, which he could not do (v. 14). Because Job was inferior to God, he had no right to criticize God for behaving as He did (cf. Rom. 9:20).

O.K., I'll bite ... what are you implying by quoting these verses in the context of the current discussion?

 

[Magenta]

gotquestions.com is an excellent site to get answers to questions for protestants
I believe the people posting here are Christians. Some would be better to answer your questions than others. That site probably is your best bet ... but I am sure people here would be happy to state their beliefs. Again, Some would be better to answer your questions than others.

gotquestions is an excellent resource on many points but falls down terribly on others, so (as always) discernment is advised

 

[posthuman]

Job had claimed God was unjust. In answering this challenge God did not argue with Job. He simply asked Job questions that made it obvious to Job that he was unable to do what he had blamed God for not doing. In criticizing God, Job had placed himself in a position over God. Therefore God now reminded Job that he was not superior or even equal to God (vv. 9, 11-13). If he were superior or equal, Job could deliver himself from his own misery, which he could not do (v. 14). Because Job was inferior to God, he had no right to criticize God for behaving as He did (cf. Rom. 9:20).

O.K., I'll bite ... what are you implying by quoting these verses in the context of the current discussion?

more than one thing; i'll explain a couple

Now prepare yourself like a man;​

I will question you, and you shall answer Me:​

Would you indeed annul My judgment?​

Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?​

Have you an arm like God?​

Or can you thunder with a voice like His?​

Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor,​

and array yourself with glory and beauty.​

Disperse the rage of your wrath;​

look on everyone who is proud, and humble him.​

Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low;​

tread down the wicked in their place.​

Hide them in the dust together,​

bind their faces in hidden darkness.​

Then I will also confess to you​

that your own right hand can save you.​

(Job 40:7-14)​

​

with direct relation to your post breaking down semi-Pelagianism, here God commands Job to answer Him, and then gives many commands that it is impossible for Job to accomplish. these may all be argued as hyperbolic, but Job's reply is to put his hand over his mouth and say that he has no answer, so even the command to answer God, Job is unable to do.
so here's commandments from God to a man that God knows a man cannot keep. why are they here? clearly God is using impossible orders to teach a man to be humble before Him.

with relation to those who protest that, God is unjust if He condemns some and saves others -- "would you indeed annul His judgement? would you condemn God that you may be justified yourself?" the arguments rejecting election include calling God evil if there is such a thing as 'double predestination' -- Paul goes over this in Romans 9 and, very similar to Job, does not give a direct answer to the question of whether it exists. instead the reply of both Paul & the book of Job amounts to "so what if God does? who do you think you are to question Him?"
in the text, Job never receives an answer to his questions about why misfortune befalls him. the answer Job receives from God is essentially, what business do you have presuming to judge God? God does as He will; be humble before Him.

with direct relation to Arminian/Pelagian/etc theology -- God says to Job, if you can do all these things that only God can do, then He will confess that "your own right hand can save you"
i think that's an astonishingly clear rejection of the works, will, desire, cleverness, fortitude or effort of man being capable to save.

with relation also to universalism, God declares here ((as in many other places)) His judgement of the wicked, their faces bound in hidden darkness. this has relation not only to the notion that all escape condemnation, but also to the topic of the origin and instantiation of belief. faces bound in hidden darkness is a very interesting turn of phrase, harkening to Christ's words about the wicked being cast into outer darkness and also to the blinding of men's eyes ((re: Isaiah 6:10, John 12:40)) -- which as Christ says, in the cited verse here, prevents belief. faith comes by hearing, but to those whose ears are not opened, how can faith come this way? God is who makes the hearing ear and the seeing eye ((Proverbs 20:12)) -- what He shuts, no one can open.

already a lengthy post..
hope this is illuminative

 

[Fastfredy0]

already a lengthy post..
hope this is illuminative

I enjoyed the commentary. Thanks Total agreement. It is good to be humbled by God.

 

[Pulie]

i already showed you Proverbs 16:4; Romans 9:22 says the same thing.
how many witnesses do you need? Exodus 33:19? Luke 10:22? John 17:6? Isaiah 40:13-14?

what is written all over the OT about Israel? are they called "the people who chose God" ?
my friend, they are called the people whom God chose.

we, by our free will, all send ourselves to hell. God chose to show mercy to some. He is not 'choosing to send your neighbor to hell' -- your neighbor exercised his autonomous agency to reject the light and choose darkness.

so as i see it, if you will not allow God to have mercy on whom He will have mercy, you've either got universal salvation for all -- a god who is not just -- or you've got people by their own cleverness and strength electing themselves to heaven -- a god who is not sovereign.

God chose them but Israel rejected Him, hence the remnant is spoken of. Jesus died for the world, everyone, all. He will draw all men to Himself. I guess you know those scriptures so I don't have to repeat them.

We send ourselves to hell but now Jesus will draw all men to Himself.

According to your doctrine, my neighbor was never given an opportunity to exercise his autonomous agency. Some were appointed for heaven and others for hell. There is a contradiction in your statements.

It's easy to say that when you have experienced irrisistable grace and are part of an elite club.

 

[Pulie]

au contraire:

Not convincing enough.

 

[Pulie]

God chose them but Israel rejected Him, hence the remnant is spoken of. Jesus died for the world, everyone, all. He will draw all men to Himself. I guess you know those scriptures so I don't have to repeat them.

We send ourselves to hell but now Jesus will draw all men to Himself.

According to your doctrine, my neighbor was never given an opportunity to exercise his autonomous agency. Some were appointed for heaven and others for hell. There is a contradiction in your statements.

It's easy to say that when you have experienced irrisistable grace and are part of an elite club.

I see you @Fastfredy0, share your views, maybe I will be converted. I understand God's sovereignty outside salvation. Pharoah, Job, rain on everyone etc.
what happened to Judas Iscariot? that is what I don't understand.
I also understand the Armenian view of salvation.
Irrisistable grace denies man's free will,please counteract that thought.

 

[Pulie]

oh? God can't by testimony of evidence establish guilt?

was Judas appointed to destruction?
did Judas hear the gospel?

was the Law not given to a people He knew would not keep it?

I cannot accept the gift of salvation without God's grace operating in my life.

For me, predestination is a train moving on the railway to its predestination and the elect are those who get on the train.

You don't believe in that, so my assumption is that of you negating free will.

You accept free will after having been justified by Faith.

 

[Magenta]

Irrisistable grace denies man's free will,please counteract that thought.

It would seem that a previous statement you made addresses this: God chose them but Israel rejected Him. I think you may be asking for something else, but if God's grace was irresistible, how could they have rejected Him over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, down through history to this very day? Still, the "free will" argument does not really oppose the notion of God's grace being irresistible, since it has to do with our own inability to choose God without Him drawing us, which makes it possible for us to choose (doesn't it?). God making it possible is not to say God forces anyone, any more than God giving Adam and Eve a choice in the garden of Eden means He created evil (something some people actually say).

 

[posthuman]

According to your doctrine, my neighbor was never given an opportunity to exercise his autonomous agency.

i think you may have missed this part of what i had said:

your neighbor exercised his autonomous agency to reject the light and choose darkness.

i am not saying man has no free will and i am not saying man has no opportunity to exercise it.
i am saying that the exercise of our free agency to make choices does not result in our choosing light rather than darkness.

without Christ, none of us follow God. none of us love Him, none of us seek Him, none of us believe Him, none of us choose Him. we all use our 'free will' for evil. we're poisoned with sin. this is the whole reason we need the Savior. this is the reason we pray 'help my unbelief' and it's the reason we pray for the salvation of others -- if it isn't necessary for God to step in and open a person's eyes and heart to Him, but man on his own is capable of and even likely to 'choose to believe' ((not a Biblical phrase)) why in the world would you pray for someone? is such a prayer not a request for God to 'coerce faith' ??

 

[Fastfredy0]

Irrisistable grace denies man's free will,please counteract that thought.

Assumption: Discussion is about salvation only
Man does not have "free will" as you define it.
I have to assume your definition is "Man is capable to decide to believe or not.

Post 2362 gives 12th verses (I could give more) stating a person is not capable of believing via his 'free will' as you define it. It also shows that verses implying you can believe of your free will do not explicitly say you can. YOU MUST explain why my contention is wrong using the rule GOD NEVER CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. We can go from there (assuming my assumptions above are correct about you beliefs).

Aside for another time: I know you will go to John 3:16 ... From this you believe God loves everyone. A holy God cannot love evil. Holy means separated from evil. Psalm 5:5 says God hates the wicked every day ... many other verses about God's hate for evil people (Esau I hated). You must explain this seeming contradiction. Also, WORLD is ambiguous. Use a concordance for the word WORD and insert your definition (Everyone with exception) and you will see WORLD means different things in different verses. Our bias' usually determine the meaning that fits our theology. Hermenuetics 101 - use explicit verses to determine the meaning of implicit verses.

Hopefully @posthuman will take over the conversation ... lol .. he seems competent and I prefer to watch as it could take a while and chances are great that bias will rule. (Both sides have bias ... one side has more truth)

P.S. looks like Posthuman has taken up the challenge. Sweet

 

[Magenta]

A holy God cannot love evil. Holy means separated from evil. Psalm 5:5 says God hates the wicked every day ... many other verses about God's hate for evil people (Esau I hated). You must explain this seeming contradiction.

I have pointed this out a number of times yet as far as I know not one person has addressed it: Jacob and Esau are explicitly identified as nations in Scripture. Jacob = believers, Esau = enemies of God. God loving humanity does not equate to God loving evil.

 

[posthuman]

For me, predestination is a train moving on the railway to its predestination and the elect are those who get on the train.

that's not election; that's random happenstance.



suppose we revamped the government of this country and instead of holding votes, we just left the white house empty when a president's term was over, and said, whoever happens to walk by first in the next 5 minutes, he or she is automatically president.
is it legitimate to call that an "election" ??
of course not.
neither is what you're describing. you are describing people electing themselves and a god who tries to cover up his lack of sovereignty by lying about what happened after-the-fact.


people who don't have tickets are thrown off the train.
if salvation is the bus, brother, there's no way you can buy that ticket for yourself. it has to be given to you.


please read this carefully and try to understand it objectively:

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
(John 8:42-46)
​

what does it say?
does it say you get to choose who will be your own father?
if just anyone could hop on this bus, why does God say these people are unable to hear what He says?
does it say the reason they do not belong to God is that they choose not to hear?
or does it say the reason they cannot hear is that they do not belong to God?

 

[posthuman]

I have pointed this out a number of times yet as far as I know not one person has addressed it: Jacob and Esau are explicitly identified as nations in Scripture. Jacob = believers, Esau = enemies of God.

representative of nations, absolutely. fathers of nations, absolutely. but even nations are comprised of people -- you can't have an 'wicked nation' or a 'blessed nation' without the people of that nation being personally wicked or sharing in the blessing.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand..
​

even if we read this as the 'twins' being nations, it takes the people of those nations to do good or bad things. if God elects a nation it must needs indicate that the people of that nation are under the effect of that election.

btw @Pulie you notice it says here that before they were even born and done anything, whether bad or good, God elected? that this election takes place before any work, in order that God's purpose of election might stand? this is defining a characteristic of God's election for us: that it is wholly His own doing and not based in any way on the works, will, desire or effort of man. IMO this passage all by itself logically destroys your version of the meaning of election.