Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

[livingbygrace]

excuse me LBG!

i stayed up last night thinking it over....i got up this morning FIRST THING with it on my mind and i took the time to reply as best i could, exactly as i said i would. you however did not bother addressing thomas and THEOS at all.

i won't be asking you another thing.

i'll assume you DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST, since for you he is a created entity and that would be IDOLATRY.

So there you have it folks.
Anyone who believes the Father as the one true God existed before all else including Christ is according to the Gospel of Zone an idolator and condemned

It does pot matter if you believe the Father brought the son into existence before time as we know it began, you are an idolatar and condemned

You basically are also condemned if you accept the plain words of Christ as to how a person must see him to have eternal life.

This is a perfect example of someone making a god out of Head Theology

You know how many people you condemnd with that belief Zone?

Biut if you are freally honest that does not interest you does it, for to you head theology is EVERYTHING,

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Hi, LBG-

I always find it useful to step aside from the Father-Son "debate" and concentrate on the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians can't provide scriptural substantiation for the HS being a separate "person".

Who/what do you think the Holy Spirit is? God? Not?

 

[zone]

Hi, LBG-

I always find it useful to step aside from the Father-Son "debate" and concentrate on the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians can't provide scriptural substantiation for the HS being a separate "person".

Who/what do you think the Holy Spirit is? God? Not?

Hi PPS.
just a simple reply this time around:

is Jesus God (theos)?

 

[livingbygrace]

Hi, LBG-

I always find it useful to step aside from the Father-Son "debate" and concentrate on the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians can't provide scriptural substantiation for the HS being a separate "person".

Who/what do you think the Holy Spirit is? God? Not?

Hi PPS

I am probably not the best person to ask this as I cannot give you a wonderful theological answer. I am sure by now you know I have a simple faith and do not concentrate on these types of questioins at great length, however I will do my best to answer you

I believe the Holy Spirit is the power of God on this earth
Christ acknowledged the miracles performed were by the power of the Holy Spirit in him . He lived in the power of the Holy Spirit. He asked people to believe the Father was in him on the evidence of the works/miracles he did. Does that mean we say the spirit cannot be a distinct person(sorry to use that word, I know what you write) in his own right in the mystery of Father son and Holy Spirit?if you like or he must be classed as God Himself?
Doesn't it say somewhere that the Spirit will tell you what he has heard? So how would that figure with him being classed as God Himself
Would this take us into a debate on oneness or Trinity or another path?

So I cannot really answer your question as you would like I am afraid
I just believe the Spirit lives in me, and I know I have to rely on

All I can say is. He seems in many instances to be the almost forgotten member of Father son and spirit, many do not mention him thaty much at all, I have my opinions as to why

To me the Father is at the head, the supreme being who is over all and greater than all.

I do believe the Father and the son are as one in the Spirit but I do not seek to understand greatly through searching my mind or scholars the intricacies of the workings out of Father son and spirit to the extent many do

 

[phil36]

Hi Pneauma and LBG

Kyrios and Pros

Can you explain?

 

[livingbygrace]

Hi Pneauma and LBG

Kyrios and Pros

Can you explain?

Well as I do not know the Greek if you ask me any questions please keep to English, or just refer your questions to PPS

 

[phil36]

Well as I do not know the Greek if you ask me any questions please keep to English, or just refer your questions to PPS

Im sure your buddy Pneuma will come up with something

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Hi PPS.
just a simple reply this time around:

is Jesus God (theos)?

Yes. Unequivocally.

(Do you or others somehow think I don't after all this?)

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Hi Pneauma and LBG

Kyrios and Pros

Can you explain?

Im sure your buddy Pneuma will come up with something

Evidently, you equivocate my anti-Trinitarian stand and passivity toward LBG as agreement with his belief and a denial of the Deity of Christ. I wholly disagree with LBG.

I absolutely affirm that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. Jesus is God.

I disaffirm the extra-biblical error of Trinity "persons"; and the unbiblical Filioque clause.

Please clarify your specific question about kurios and pros. I will gladly answer.

 

[phil36]

Evidently, you equivocate my anti-Trinitarian stand and passivity toward LBG as agreement with his belief and a denial of the Deity of Christ. I wholly disagree with LBG.

I absolutely affirm that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. Jesus is God.

I disaffirm the extra-biblical error of Trinity "persons"; and the unbiblical Filioque clause.

Please clarify your specific question about kurios and pros. I will gladly answer.

Hi Pneuma,

Yes I already know you don't agree with the triune God of the bible.

No I refer you back, since you seem to Know Greek, well you seem to use it plenty.

What is the significance of these 2 words, and being the great anti trinitarian debater using greek you should very easily bea ble to explain this. and BTW if you understood these words you would know why I asked you Both , that is you and LBG!


Kyrios and another important word Pros?

Thank you in advance

 

[zone]

Yes. Unequivocally.

(Do you or others somehow think I don't after all this?)

no, i know you know Jesus is theos. i just wanted confirmation that we agree Jesus is theos (God)

i'm just trying to keep it really simple to start with.

if we can't agree that Jesus is theos the discussion can hardly continue (i'm not questioning you on theos).

~

for me at this time the subject is: IS JESUS GOD. was He God manifest in the flesh. is Jesus a created entity or eternally God.

and i want to establish did Jesus say the following about Himself.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who
is to come, the Almighty.”

I am: (1510. eimí)
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is.
1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being
(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).
1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be
time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the
context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications.
For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi
. . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life,
bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.
Example: Jn 14:6: "I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life." Here 1510
(eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning "I am (was,
will be)." The "I am formula (Gk egō eimi)" harks back to God's only name,
"Yahweh" (OT/3068, "the lord") – meaning "He who always was, is, and will be."
Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios ("Lord").

Lord: (2962 kyrios)
2962 kýrios – properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord
(Lord). [In the papyri, 2962 (kýrios) likewise denotes an owner (master) exercising full
rights.]

God (2316. theos)
2316 theós (of unknown origin) – properly,God, the Creator and owner of all
things (Jn 1:3; Gen 1 - 3). [Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós)
referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things.]

Almighty (3841. pantokratór)
Almighty, Omnipotent.
From pas and kratos; the all-ruling, i.e. God (as absolute and universal
sovereign) -- Almighty, Omnipotent.

~

got go out....
zone.

[leaving for later looking at Father (3962. patér)

Revelation 1:6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.]

 

[phil36]

no, i know you know Jesus is theos. i just wanted confirmation that we agree Jesus is theos (God)

i'm just trying to keep it really simple to start with.

if we can't agree that Jesus is theos the discussion can hardly continue (i'm not questioning you on theos).

~

for me at this time the subject is: IS JESUS GOD. was He God manifest in the flesh. is Jesus a created entity or eternally God.

and i want to establish did Jesus say the following about Himself.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who
is to come, the Almighty.”

I am: (1510. eimí)
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is.
1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being
(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).
1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be
time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the
context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications.
For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi
. . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life,
bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.
Example: Jn 14:6: "I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life." Here 1510
(eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning "I am (was,
will be)." The "I am formula (Gk egō eimi)" harks back to God's only name,
"Yahweh" (OT/3068, "the lord") – meaning "He who always was, is, and will be."
Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios ("Lord").

Lord: (2962 kyrios)
2962 kýrios – properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord
(Lord). [In the papyri, 2962 (kýrios) likewise denotes an owner (master) exercising full
rights.]

God (2316. theos)
2316 theós (of unknown origin) – properly,God, the Creator and owner of all
things (Jn 1:3; Gen 1 - 3). [Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós)
referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things.]

Almighty (3841. pantokratór)
Almighty, Omnipotent.
From pas and kratos; the all-ruling, i.e. God (as absolute and universal
sovereign) -- Almighty, Omnipotent.

~

got go out....
zone.

[leaving for later looking at Father (3962. patér)

Revelation 1:6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.]

Hi Zone,

Good post.

Refering to the 'I Am' eimi -- 'to be', is very important for we see the 1st and 3rd person singular verb of the past tense 'to be' in The first verse of John.. with the greek word Pros.

Kyrios is used in the Greek translataion that was in use in Jesus' time as the name Lord, which referred to The one true God, yet who else is called Kyrios in the New Testament.

thats why my question both to Pneuma and LBG is very important, I though maybe because Pneuma uses a lot of Greek he might be able to explain this? obviously not though.

 

[livingbygrace]

The problem here seems to have come about(I gather from what I read that others have written) in the fourth century from the Nicean Councils.

The Father is Spirit and unseen

The Spirit of the Father(Holy Spirit) exhibits fully in Christ.

The Holy Spirit is refered to in scripture as the Spirit of the Father and the son. This is because the Spirit of the Father exhibits in the Son .
So man, in effect made the bold claim that Christ was God Himself.

We can say that through the Spirit the Father is fully exhibited in the Son, but SCRIPTURALLY you cannot then according to the plainest of scritpure anyway say Christ is God Himself

You can say Christ is Mighty God, you can say that he is the one we may know as God of this earth as all power and authority has been given to Christ, but he is still not the one true God Himself, though by the Spirit the one true God resides in him
There is so much plain scripture to back this up

But here is one

That they(the believers) may be one AS we are one

We the believers can only be of one heart and one mind in the Spirit

So we can be as one, but not one person

That they may be one AS we are one.

Is this view belittling who Christ is? Absolutely not! but people without realising it lessen the person of who the Father himself is

Christ said

The Father is greater than I John 14:28

People say this is because he was in an earthly body

But that does not make any sense

Why would Christ in effect make a statement that in effect says
The Father is greater than someone born as flesh, that would be no statement at all.
And Christ often refered to himself in his eternal role, he said

One greater than the temple is here
And he continually stated he was the son of God.
So he was saying this in relation to his eternal role

Although the spirit of the Father resides fully in Christ, the Father is far greater than that part of him that is in the person of Christ.
Is Christ a clone of the Father? No,
If the son was just the Fathers spirit and nothing more the Father would always be talking to himself and not his son, does anyone believe this to be the case?

And how can God Himself refer to someone as 'My God' that is an awful thing to believe

People like to look at context and of course, I understand that. But however much you try and fudge it
To call Christ God Himself does mean much plainly written scripture must be ignored, as untrue.


Frankly I do not know how anyone can fail to admit this, and where would that leave the credebility of the spirit filled Bible

 

[phil36]

People like to look at context and of course, I understand that. But however much you try and fudge it
To call Christ God Himself does mean much plainly written scripture must be ignored, as untrue.


Frankly I do not know how anyone can fail to admit this

Wow, you can't understand why people don't believe Jesus is not the one true God, but another god?

I WONDER WHY LBG.

 

[livingbygrace]

Wow, you can't understand why people don't believe Jesus is not the one true God, but another god?

I WONDER WHY LBG.

Well as you have no opinion of your own of all those scriptures I placed before you I know you must have great ignorance concerning much of this subject

The Father himself called Christ God, but still said he was Christ's God, that is plainly written in Heb 1:8&9 but you cannot accept what the Father said obviously
Keep blowing in those bagpipes Phil

Oh and I am still waiting for that sermon

I used to like going to Baptist churches you know, but if they cannot preach sermons on the basis of Christianity and acceptable and non acceptable beliefs(according to you) it isn't very good is it. They are letting their congregations down abysmally

 

[phil36]

The Father himself called Christ God, but still said he was Christ's God

And this shows that you are not a Christian!



And yes I will keep blowing those Bagpipes, and maybe when Im good enough I'll play them for the glory of God

 

[livingbygrace]

no, i know you know Jesus is theos. i just wanted confirmation that we agree Jesus is theos (God)

i'm just trying to keep it really simple to start with.

if we can't agree that Jesus is theos the discussion can hardly continue (i'm not questioning you on theos).

~

for me at this time the subject is: IS JESUS GOD. was He God manifest in the flesh. is Jesus a created entity or eternally God.

and i want to establish did Jesus say the following about Himself.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who
is to come, the Almighty.”

I am: (1510. eimí)
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is.
1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being
(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).
1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be
time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the
context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications.
For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi
. . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life,
bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.
Example: Jn 14:6: "I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life." Here 1510
(eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning "I am (was,
will be)." The "I am formula (Gk egō eimi)" harks back to God's only name,
"Yahweh" (OT/3068, "the lord") – meaning "He who always was, is, and will be."
Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios ("Lord").

Lord: (2962 kyrios)
2962 kýrios – properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord
(Lord). [In the papyri, 2962 (kýrios) likewise denotes an owner (master) exercising full
rights.]

God (2316. theos)
2316 theós (of unknown origin) – properly,God, the Creator and owner of all
things (Jn 1:3; Gen 1 - 3). [Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós)
referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things.]

Almighty (3841. pantokratór)
Almighty, Omnipotent.
From pas and kratos; the all-ruling, i.e. God (as absolute and universal
sovereign) -- Almighty, Omnipotent.

~

got go out....
zone.

[leaving for later looking at Father (3962. patér)

Revelation 1:6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.]

The only comment I can make here is that you are clearly to my mind using your natural thinking and understanding to strive to understand the spiritual

Zone, it cannot be done

 

[livingbygrace]

And this shows that you are not a Christian!



And yes I will keep blowing those Bagpipes, and maybe when Im good enough I'll play them for the glory of God

The Father himself called/refered to Christ as God but stll said he was Christ's God

And you say the above statement means I am not a Christian

But about the son He(the Father) says

Your throne O God will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore God, your God
Has set you above your companions and annointed you with the oil of Joy
Heb 1:8&9

You have been so indoctrinated by men or just your own natural thinking that you CANNOT accept the plainest of written scripture, I am truly amazed

But as I have previously said, you cannot be being led of the Holy Spirit because you do not accept whjat Christ plainly said was the required belief for a person to have eternal life

And the Holy Spirit WOULD NOT contradict how Christ plainly said a person must see him to have eternal life

I am wondering here if most people in your church/denomination think as you do or whether you are a one off. It is a depressing thought

No wonder so many churches do not see the power promised. You dismiss the plainest of scripture and it is impossible for you to be being led of the Holy Spirit

Would the spirit contradict or add to what Christ said was the requirement of belief to have eternal life?

We have an intellectual Christianity of the rational mind by so many, not a spirit led one and therein is the problem

Oh my Oh my Oh my

 

[Red33]

I will tell you as I told Zone yesterday

Many make a god out of head theology. It isd driven by pride and the ego

And it is easy to see the main culprits who do this

For they do not accept the plain words of Christ as to what is required to have eternal life, therefore they CANNOT be being led of the Holy Spirit

And I say with full assurity that neither you, Zone, Phil or anyone else who takes your stance on this is being led of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit would NEVER contradict what Christ plainly and continuously stated was how a person must see him to have eternal life

You ignore questions put to you, Zone tries to bluster her way through questions she cannot answer, because you are in effect speaking for yourselves as you are not being led of the Holy Spirit

Anyone who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself, but he who works for the honour of the one who sent him is a man of truth and there is nothing false about him
John 7:18

You are here to try and impress others Red as I have told you so many times, for you seek praise from man before you look to seek glory for the one who sent his son to die for you

LBG,

You need to get on your knees and repent of your unbelief concerning the Son, who was God in the flesh and took on human for through the person of His Son. You will only do this when the Holy Spirit convicts your heart that has now been hardened against the deity of our precious Lord who was God manifest in the flesh. We worship our Lord and Savior, the one and only true God, who has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit through the truth of God's written word. Christians can be very religious and moral but morality is not spirituality.

Spirituality is when the indwelling Spirit is continually quickening us by every word of God and ordaining every single one of our steps in the light of truth. We can not be of a carnal mind concerning the scriptures and understand that which is spiritual. To live in unbelief concerning the Son as the one and only true God is to be carnal in our thinking and to live in our heart without the being led by the Spirit in every word of God.

The carnal mind, reasons truth through the flesh, and is at enmity with God, but outwardly has a religious form of godliness that appeals to the dictates of the nominal Christian that has not been transformed and renewed in their mind to be able to think with God in the details of life. When we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with the one and only true God, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is our God who redeemed us and has given unto us eternal life forevermore.

 

[livingbygrace]

LBG,


The carnal mind, reasons truth through the flesh, and is at enmity with God, but outwardly has a religious form of godliness that appeals to the dictates of the nominal Christian that has not been transformed and renewed in their mind to be able to think with God in the details of life. .

The above kinda sounds like someone who claims a conversion and immediately afterwards and for the next ten years say constantly, ceaselessly, beats their wife, gets drunk, has affairs and does not read a Bible

That would be the result of a carnal mind would it not?

But you believe such a person in all probability would be in a saved state

Wisdom is always justified by its inconsistencies

Your words are hollow for you CANNOT be being led of the Holy Spirit for the reasons mentioned, but do not worry, although the discerning will know that truth in their heart, many others like you will not