Grace

[Blik]

Exactly!!!



Right ... and while I do not believe the word "grace" (Hebrew chen) is found where Peterlag insists it must be in order for him to allow that grace permeates the whole of the existence of mankind, we do see God’s grace extended in His revealing/having anything at all to do with Moses and the children of Israel, or mankind in general all the way back to Adam/Eve.

The Lord stated way back in Leviticus that it was only through blood that there was atonement, or salvation, of the soul.

If the God who created us was a God who would let mankind die of sin for 4,000 years, until Christ came to fulfill God's promise, then we are in terrible peril and trouble. We are told God is Holy, we are to praise Him. Could we praise a God so cruel and mean he would not give a way of salvation for 4,000 years? What terrible gossip this is against our Holy God.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

To Pastor Curtis:
Bible study question? If the Believer is frustrating grace by their Faith being misplace; by not placing and maintaining their Faith exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified - will grace continue to much more abound over sin in the life of a Believer?

Pastor Curtis answer:
No sir I do not believe that it will according to Gal 1:6, 5:1-4 and other scriptures. The word “frustrate” means to deny or to set aside. Grace only takes place “through faith”. Grace is God doing something in, for, to or through someone through their faith. Hope this helps.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The Lord stated way back in Leviticus that it was only through blood that there was atonement, or salvation, of the soul.

If the God who created us was a God who would let mankind die of sin for 4,000 years, until Christ came to fulfill God's promise, then we are in terrible peril and trouble. We are told God is Holy, we are to praise Him. Could we praise a God so cruel and mean he would not give a way of salvation for 4,000 years? What terrible gossip this is against our Holy God.

I don't think we can ever fully comprehend the depth of God's love, grace, mercy, lovingkindness toward us. It is not difficult to find God's grace revealed in the whole of Scripture. Just gotta dig for those gems sometimes ... and the time spent digging is well worth it.

Psalm 145:

1 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.

2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.

3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.

5 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.

6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.

7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.

8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.

9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;

12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.

13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.

15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.

16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.

17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.

 

[p_rehbein]

1) We have not yet reached "perfection." But we surely will by the Grace of God and the precious blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians, Chapter 15:

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


2) Gods Grace knows no bounds that is for sure, and it is eternal, but let us remember how salvation comes to us:

Ephesians, Chapter 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[garee]

Okay thanks. But I was looking for it written in the Mosaic Law.

Its hid requiring the power of His faith working in us. The letter of the Mosaic law "death" kills. The spirit of the law or the law of faith heals. Together as one perfect law. He become the just one having no sin of his own according to the letter and the justified those who honor the grace.

One law the letter we get what we deserve death. The other what we cannot deserve new eternal life.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace

 

[Deuteronomy]

Grace supersedes our natural existence.....................................

This statement reminds me a bit of something that I read of Bono's a few years back. Here's part of his quote.

It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the Universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma…

You see, at the centre of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it.

And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that “As you reap, so will you sow” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff. ~Bono​

~Deut

 

[Nehemiah6]

Do you have a verse that mentions "Grace" in it from this Old Testament that you quote?

Do you doubt that grace is mentioned in the Old Testament?
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen 6:8)

Grace is mentioned 35 times in the OT, and twice in this verse: Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. (Zech 4:7)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

2) Gods Grace knows no bounds that is for sure, and it is eternal, but let us remember how salvation comes to us:

Ephesians, Chapter 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8 picks up where verse 5 leaves off and reiterates what is included in the parenthesis at the end of vs 5:


Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


When we see that we were dead in sins and that it is God, through the riches of His mercy for His great love wherewith He loves us (vs 4), Who makes us alive in Christ, we understand that we are saved wholly by God's grace. Those who are dead are incapable of making themselves alive in Christ.

Then we have vss 6-7 which reveal spiritual realities and, while it is true we are seated in the heavenlies, the fullness of the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus will not be fully understood until some point in the future.

Then we have verse 8 ... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

Since we know from vs 5 that we are saved by grace, that is (or should be) understood by the reader.

However, then we have the additional truth that we are saved through faith. Does the fact that are saved through faith in any way negate what God tells us in vs 5? I do not believe this is the case.

We are saved by grace through faith. Recall from Heb 11:1 that faith is the foundation ... the hypóstasis ("title of possession") -- the Lord's guarantee to fulfill what He has promised.

We lay hold of God's promise that we are saved by His grace through faith in Him Who we cannot see having made promise.

How secure are we in God's promise that He has saved us ??? ... not on our own merit, but solely by His favor toward mankind ???

That is the through faith part ... the foundation upon which we rest, knowing that God's grace has secured our salvation.


I don't know if I am communicating this effectively and I hope/pray that God works in hearts to bring understanding of these magnificent truths.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

This statement reminds me a bit of something that I read of Bono's a few years back. Here's part of his quote.

It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the Universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma…​

​

You see, at the centre of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it.​

​

And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that “As you reap, so will you sow” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff. ~Bono​

~Deut

Grace = God's truth.

karma = man's wisdom (religion).

While I pray that Bono is a born again believer, I disagree that "karma" is the "center of all religions" as if God's truth is equal to man's religion.

I pray Bono turns his heart to the Lord and learns of Him ... as opposed to holding on to man's wisdom and mixing it with the truth (which always ends in us building our house upon sand).

No offense, I like some of the music ... but I love God and God's Word more than the opinions of man.

I would love to hear U2 writing, playing, and singing music which glorifies God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

Do you doubt that grace is mentioned in the Old Testament?
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen 6:8)

Grace is mentioned 35 times in the OT, and twice in this verse: Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. (Zech 4:7)

I was looking for a verse from the Mosaic Law when I asked.

 

[Peterlag]

Do you really understand/comprehend God's grace? God provided for redemption of mankind before Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Additionally, the Mosaic Law never "saved" anyone. Salvation was not the purpose of the law.

Salvation has always been by the grace of God. There are not two types of salvation ... one for OT believers and one for NT believers.

Salvation has always the gift of God.

1 Peter 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Okay so you don't have a verse concerning the old covenant.

 

[Peterlag]

there is no grace in the mosaic law. Thats WHY no one could be saved by it,

Thats why you will not find it written

I rest my case.

 

[Peterlag]

Paul goes into detail of how the Law is meant to lead one to grace, and rightly understood is the epitome of God’s grace.

Okay so there's no verse from the old convent.

 

[Peterlag]

Genesis 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Often the translators say "found favor" instead of speaking of grace. The Psalms often speak of God's salvation.

Don't you have a concordance? Or know to use the one on the net.

Okay but I was thinking a verse from the Mosaic Law.

 

[Peterlag]

A rather cursory search found 37 uses of the term grace. Do you need all of them?

Just give me one from the Mosaic Law.

 

[jackrosie]

Grace = God's truth.

karma = man's wisdom (religion).

While I pray that Bono is a born again believer, I disagree that "karma" is the "center of all religions" as if God's truth is equal to man's religion.

I pray Bono turns his heart to the Lord and learns of Him ... as opposed to holding on to man's wisdom and mixing it with the truth (which always ends in us building our house upon sand).

No offense, I like some of the music ... but I love God and God's Word more than the opinions of man.

I would love to hear U2 writing, playing, and singing music which glorifies God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your Love for the Lord shines out of you!x

 

[Deuteronomy]

Grace = God's truth.
karma = man's wisdom (religion).

While I pray that Bono is a born again believer, I disagree that "karma" is the "center of all religions" as if God's truth is equal to man's religion.

Hello Reneweddaybyday, perhaps I've misunderstood Bono's quote somehow, but I don't believe Bono was saying that. In fact, I believe he was saying quite the opposite.

Karma to Bono (again, unless I am somehow misunderstanding him) is indeed the "center of all religions" .. OTHER than Christianity, and I believe that is one of the main points he labors to make.

Perhaps a bit more of his quote would be in order here.

It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the Universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma…​

​

You see, at the centre of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. Its clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it.​

​

And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that “As you reap, so will you sow” stuff [IOW, to UPEND Karma]. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff.​

​

That’s between me and God. ​

​

But I’d be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. It doesn’t excuse my mistakes, but I’m holding out for Grace. I’m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross because I know who I am, and I hope I don’t have to depend on my own religiosity.​

​

The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That’s the point. It should keep us humbled….its not our own good works that get through the gates of heaven…”​

Hope that helps a bit.

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello again @reneweddaybyday, perhaps I should mention that I know little to nothing about Bono. By the time U2 came onto the scene in 1976 I was in music school and listening to orchestral and jazz music exclusively (and then Christian music from Nov 2nd, 1986 onward ).

I heard him give a very moving speech about America once, and then I saw the quote of his above more recently. I've listened to a couple of his songs now, and I know he's a real famous guy, but that's about it.

I guess what I'm saying is that you may know a lot more about him than I do, so perhaps I am missing something of the big picture concerning him

~Deut
p.s. - Oh, and Happy Independence Day

 

[Sipsey]

Just give me one from the Mosaic Law.

Can you just plainly state what you are trying to say, instead of moving the goal posts.

 

[garee]

Just give me one from the Mosaic Law.

LOL


How many guesses are we to take before you show us the magical hidden understanding ?

How about the whole ceremonial law? The Mosaic Law? It used in ceremonies as parable to hide the unseen things of God. .