The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

acts5_29 · Jul 4, 2020

No, they were--according to this account--unbelieving at the time they are sealed, and probably after the Rapture (because anyone Jew or Gentile who was saved at the time of the Rapture is no longer there). Yet they are predestined for salvation later on.

The problem is, the tribe of Dan was cut off for unbelief. And were not sealed.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 4, 2020

acts5_29 said:

I think that gets back to what I'd said in my Post #2099 [more at that post] -

"As I see it, "the 144,000" will be "sealed" [for a certain type of protection] (at a certain point in/during the trib)... but I don't believe these are the sum total of all the Jews/Israel who will be "SAVED" in/during the trib years (besides "Gentiles" in the trib)."

IOW, I do not believe this is referring to the kind of "seal" that takes place upon "faith/belief [/salvation]," but more like the following passage:

Ezekiel 9 -
Execution of the Idolaters

1 Then I heard Him call out in a loud voice, saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with a weapon of destruction in hand.”
2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the Upper Gate, which faces north, each with a weapon of slaughter in his hand. With them was another man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. And they came in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Then the glory of the God of Israel rose from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side. 4 “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem,” said the LORD, “and put a mark on the foreheads of the men sighing and groaning over all the abominations committed there.”
5 And as I listened, He said to the others, “Follow him through the city and start killing; do not show pity or spare anyone! 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and maidens, the women and children; but do not go near anyone who has the mark. Now begin at My sanctuary.”
So they began with the elders who were before the temple.
7 Then He told them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go forth!”
So they went out and began killing throughout the city.
8 While they were killing, I was left alone. And I fell facedown and cried out, “Oh, Lord GOD, when You pour out Your wrath on Jerusalem, will You destroy the entire remnant of Israel?”
9 He replied, “The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great. The land is full of bloodshed, and the city is full of perversity. For they say, ‘The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.’ 10 But as for Me, I will not look on them with pity, nor will I spare them. I will bring their deeds down upon their own heads.”
11 Then the man clothed in linen with the writing kit at his side reported back, “I have done as You commanded.”

This passage is showing that A CERTAIN SEGMENT was SPARED. The ones that were "sighing and groaning OVER ALL the abominations committed there" (in this context). These were "marked" for PROTECTION from a certain "judgment" going on at that time, see.

The text in Revelation [like this one, as I see it] is not saying they hadn't come to faith yet (before that particular "mark/sealing"), but that these persons of faith (having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and IN/WITHIN the trib years, even EARLY ON in the trib years!) are certain ones (a certain number of them of Israel) who will be "SEALED for a certain kind of PROTECTION" at a certain point in/within/during the trib yrs. Not upon "faith/salvation," but the kind of "SEAL" for a certain kind of PROTECTION (at a critical point in the trib yrs, but as persons having already "come to faith" by that point, as I see it... JUST LIKE the Ezek9 passage seems to show!!

)

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2020

Runningman said:

What is the meaning of this enigmatic statement: “[O]ne will be taken and the other left”? Jesus’ use of the word taken in vs. 39 and 40 implies a kind of washing away as if by a flood. In the Book of Revelation earth is used as a metaphor for the land of Israel and sea represents Gentile Rome. This imagery is not unique to Revelation, earth is often used to denote a specific nation-state while water imagery like sea, waters and flood often poetically symbolize foreign armies. The flood of Matthew 24:36-41 like the floods of Isaiah 8:7-8; Ezekiel 26:3; Jeremiah 46:7-8; 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Daniel 11:10, 40; and Nahum 1:8 represents the coming invasion of Israel by foreign armies at the time of their end. In other words, the impeding Roman invasion of Israel during the Jewish War is symbolically depicted as a flood washing over the earth in Matthew 24:36-41. The flood of Genesis mentioned in vs. 37-41 is, therefore, a symbol of the destruction of Israel, the earth, by Gentile Rome, the sea. Besides, God promised never to destroy mankind with a flood again.

In describing those killed by Noah’s flood, Jesus says that the flood “took them all away.” As stated above the flood in the analogy above represents the Roman army. Therefore, the people who are taken away in v. 40 might represent those who were exiled during and after the Jewish War since being taken away by flood waters representing the Romans also sounds a lot like exile. About half of the remaining people of Jerusalem (not killed during the tribulation) were killed after the Romans broke into the city, the remaining 98,000 were taken into exile back to Rome.

Matthew 24:40 is often mistakenly cited as evidence of the rapture. Rapture theorists identify those who are taken in v. 40 as the righteous who are raptured. However, this verse does not appear to be referring to the rapture since in the context of this verse those who are taken in v. 40 are the wicked, not the righteous, since it was the unrighteous who were taken away by Noah’s flood in v. 39.

Besides, if this is in our future we wouldn't have 2 men in the field, rather 2 men working in an office. We wouldn't have two women grinding at the mill, they would be working in a hospital or selling real estate or something.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Proleptic you? Now I truly have heard it all. You guys don't even recognize the mental gymnastics you must employ to keep your view point alive. You have totally lost all audience integrity. If you can reassign an audience anytime you want, you can make the scriptures literally say anything you want them to say. You just replaced yourself with the 1st century church of Thessalonika. This means that NOTHING Paul said to them was relevant to them. So, let's see how this works in the actual text to see if it makes more sense your way.

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the (TheDivineWatermark) in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ...3 We are bound to thank God always for (TheDivineWatermark), brethren, as it is fitting, because (TheDivineWatermark's) faith grows exceedingly, and the love of (TheDivineWatermark) abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of (TheDivineWatermark) among the churches of God for (TheDivineWatermark's) patience and faith in all (TheDivineWatermark's) persecutions and tribulations that (TheDivineWatermark) endures 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that (TheDivineWatermark) may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which (TheDivineWatermark) also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble (TheDivineWatermark), 7 and to give (TheDivineWatermark) who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among (TheDivineWatermark) was believed.

The Church of the Thessalonians was suffering, enduring persecutions and tribulations at the hands of their fellow Jews (Acts 17). They were remaining faithful through their suffering. They were promised rest when the Lord Jesus was revealed NOT YOU!! How dare you destroy the entire meaning and promise contained in this passage???? Fortunately history tells the promise was kept. When those wicked Jews who were persecuting them returned to Jerusalem for Passover, they were besieged by Vespasian and they were killed in flaming fire just as Paul predicted, whether Christ's presence was there or not.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

Tribulation = suffering. It is NOT DEATH COUNT. Neither Hitler or WWII is found in the Bible. Oh yes, they suffered in the concentration camps but apparently not as bad as the Jews did in the siege of Titus. Here is a flavor from Josephus concerning the conditions inside the city during the siege, truncated for effect.

1. .. And the main reasons why they were so ready to desert were these: That now they should be freed from those miseries which they had endured in that city, and yet should not be in slavery to the Romans

2. But as for the richer sort, it proved all one to them whether they staid in the city, or attempted to get out of it; for they were equally destroyed in both cases; for every such person was put to death under this pretense, that they were going to desert, but in reality that the robbers might get what they had. The madness of the seditious did also increase together with their famine, and both those miseries were every day inflamed more and more; for there was no corn which any where appeared publicly, but the robbers came running into, and searched men's private houses; and then, if they found any, they tormented them, because they had denied they had any; and if they found none, they tormented them worse, because they supposed they had more carefully concealed it. The indication they made use of whether they had any or not was taken from the bodies of these miserable wretches; which, if they were in good case, they supposed they were in no want at all of food; but if they were wasted away, they walked off without searching any further; nor did they think it proper to kill such as these, because they saw they would very soon die of themselves for want of food. Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one measure; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort; but of barley, if they were poorer.

3. It was now a miserable case, and a sight that would justly bring tears into our eyes, how men stood as to their food, while the more powerful had more than enough, and the weaker were lamenting [for want of it.] But the famine was too hard for all other passions, and it is destructive to nothing so much as to modesty; for what was otherwise worthy of reverence was in this case despised; insomuch that children pulled the very morsels that their fathers were eating out of their very mouths, and what was still more to be pitied, so did the mothers do as to their infants; and when those that were most dear were perishing under their hands, they were not ashamed to take from them the very last drops that might preserve their lives: and while they ate after this manner, yet were they not concealed in so doing; but the seditious every where came upon them immediately, and snatched away from them what they had gotten from others; for when they saw any house shut up, this was to them a signal that the people within had gotten some food; whereupon they broke open the doors, and ran in, and took pieces of what they were eating almost up out of their very throats, and this by force: the old men, who held their food fast, were beaten; and if the women hid what they had within their hands, their hair was torn for so doing; nor was there any commiseration shown either to the aged or to the infants, but they lifted up children from the ground as they hung upon the morsels they had gotten, and shook them down upon the floor. But still they were more barbarously cruel to those that had prevented their coming in, and had actually swallowed down what they were going to seize upon, as if they had been unjustly defrauded of their right. They also invented terrible methods of torments to discover where any food was, and they were these to stop up the passages of the privy parts of the miserable wretches, and to drive sharp stakes up their fundaments; and a man was forced to bear what it is terrible even to hear, in order to make him confess that he had but one loaf of bread, or that he might discover a handful of barley-meal that was concealed; and this was done when these tormentors were not themselves hungry; for the thing had been less barbarous had necessity forced them to it; but this was done to keep their madness in exercise, and as making preparation of provisions for themselves for the following days.

4. These were the afflictions which the lower sort of people suffered from these tyrants' guards; but for the men that were in dignity, and withal were rich, they were carried before the tyrants themselves; some of whom were falsely accused of laying treacherous plots, and so were destroyed; others of them were charged with designs of betraying the city to the Romans; but the readiest way of all was this, to suborn somebody to affirm that they were resolved to desert to the enemy. And he who was utterly despoiled of what he had by Simon was sent back again to John, as of those who had been already plundered by Jotre, Simon got what remained; insomuch that they drank the blood of the populace to one another, and divided the dead bodies of the poor creatures between them; so that although, on account of their ambition after dominion, they contended with each other, yet did they very well agree in their wicked practices; for he that did not communicate what he got by the miseries of others to the other tyrant seemed to be too little guilty, and in one respect only; and he that did not partake of what was so communicated to him grieved at this, as at the loss of what was a valuable thing, that he had no share in such barbarity.

5. It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.

Absolutely · Jul 4, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

In love, it's you who dosent budge from dispensationalism's grip, I followed the false teaching for 20 years, sitting in the Baptist churches pew shouting amen!

I didn't have a clue who John N. Darby or C.I. Scofield were, or anything about their foundations in the false teachings of a pre-trib rapture, dual Covenant Theology, or millennialism.

I'm sure you believe in Moses/Aaron and the plagues of Egypt, and you believe the Hebrews were separated from these plagues, as none fell upon the Hebrews as I do?

I'm sure you believe the "Two Witnesses" will be present during the tribulation, bringing "Plagues/Wrath" upon the world as seen in the Revelation as I do, however you continue claim that if the church were present, that the "Plagues/Wrath" seen will fall upon the believer, giving complete disregard to God's miraculous power as seen in the Exodus?

Gods words below clearly teaches that the plagues/Wrath/judgement falls upon the wicked, as you give complete disregard to this truth.

Do you believe these plagues/Wrath/judgement will come upon the 144,000 and the tribulation saints that you believe will be present during the tribulation?

Cant you see the conflict in your teaching, the church isn't the (Men, They, Them) seen below?

God will divinely protect (The Church) in the tribulation from the plagues/Wrath/judgement, just as the Hebrews were protected in the Exodus.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Your error is in centering on "trib/wrath" and combining it with some abstract disdain for the pretrib concept.

You ignore or reframe our verses.

You are unbiblical plain and simple.

Runningman · Jul 4, 2020

PlainWord said:

I see. Yes, the only way Matthew 24 conforms to your preterist view is by being symbolic. The only problem with symbolism is that unless the symbolism is explicitly decoded by the one who wrote it then we're just assigning meaning to something that wasn't explained. In other words, the symbolism becomes whatever we decide it means. The writers of the Bible had intent, let's not assign meaning where none is explicitly stated.

We should also consider what value it would have been to the disciples, who asked Jesus what the sign of his coming and the end of the age would be, had he not plainly answered them in a literal way.

Remember, Jesus intentionally spoke in a cryptic way to people who weren't his disciples;

Matthew 13:10-11
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

We can only conclude in Matthew 24 when his disciples asked a question that Jesus gave a literal answer:

Matthew 24:3
3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

You don't think there will be field workers in the future? If there are still fields in the future then there will be fieldworkers. As long as people are still around to eat, we will definitely need farms.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2020

Runningman said:

It is totally appropriate to allow the Word to interpret the Word when the literal makes no sense. Jesus is comparing the generation to see His coming as wicked, as the days of Noah and that their punishment will come quickly, as it did during Noah's day. The wickedness of the generation which was destroyed in 70 AD was, according to Josephus, the most wicked in history, Jesus echoes that sediment several times in the NT. A flood was being depicted to represent an invading army with little to no warning. An actual global flood would violate God's covenant from Gen 9.

Gen 9:11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

Thus a global flood is impossible. Besides a flood can not be discrete, taking every other person especially when they are in close proximity to each other. Thus if the literal doesn't fit, use the symbolic. Remember who the audience was, it isn't you or me, it was 4 of the disciples. They would be very intimately aware of the symbolism for flood being an invading army as their country has been through that a lot. This symbolism is found all through the prophets and Christ was also a prophet.

Isa 8: 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord brings up over them The waters of the River (Euphrates), strong and mighty—The king of Assyria and all his glory; He will go up over all his channels And go over all his banks. 8 He will pass through Judah, He will overflow and pass over, He will reach up to the neck; And the stretching out of his wings Will fill the breadth of Your land, O Immanuel.

Eze 26: 3 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers...

Jer 46: 7 “Who is this coming up like a flood, Whose waters move like the rivers? 8 Egypt rises up like a flood, And its waters move like the rivers; And he says, ‘I will go up and cover the earth, I will destroy the city and its inhabitants.’

47 The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Philistines, before Pharaoh attacked Gaza. 2 Thus says the Lord: “Behold, waters rise out of the north, And shall be an overflowing flood; They shall overflow the land and all that is in it, The city and those who dwell within; Then the men shall cry,

51: 55 Because the Lord is plundering Babylon And silencing her loud voice, Though her waves roar like great waters, And the noise of their voice is uttered, 56 Because the plunderer comes against her, against Babylon, And her mighty men are taken. Every one of their bows is broken; For the Lord is the God of recompense, He will surely repay.

Nah 1:8 But with an overflowing flood He will make an utter end of its place, And darkness will pursue His enemies.

Luk 21:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth.

Rev 12: 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I'm sure there are more passage but I think that is enough examples. Again, they understood, even if you don't. Farmers yes, women grinding at a mill, NO!!!

Runningman · Jul 4, 2020

PlainWord said:

Ok there are many references to floods of armies, but there is also the great flood of literal water like in the days of Noah. Jesus gives us the answer in Matthew 24, eliminating all of the guess work, by saying:

Matthew 24:38-39
38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

So it couldn't have been an army because the great flood of Noah's day wasnt an army. He decodes the symbolism to his disciples by saying the coming of the Son of Man will be like the flood. So how does this work?

The return of Christ will be like the flood in that it kills all of the unrighteous and Jesus will be like Noah's ark in that it saves the righteous. Many people, most people I wager, won't even see this coming except the Christians.

So taking a few steps back, has there been any event like the flood that wipes out the wicked people of earth but saves the righteous? I think we have come to an agreement that nothing of the sort has happened.

The only plausible explanation of this, even though Jesus never said it would be thousands of years in the future, is that it simply hasn't happened yet. Or your Josephus historian would have documented it. Did he document an event that wiped out the earth and only saved Jesus's followers?

Are you trying to say that all of the prophecies mentioned in the Bible have already come to pass?

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2020

Again, follow audience integrity. Christ was speaking to 4 specific disciples, Peter, James, John, and Andrew. We know that John was still alive in 70 AD, while the others were not. James was thrown off the roof of the temple by the wicked priests and that same day, Vespasian surrounded the city. Jesus says this in Mat 24.

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

John the Baptist states this in Mat 3:

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

He was speaking to the religious leaders of His day. He was telling them what was going to happen to them in their generation. There is no mention of a 100 generation gap. Jesus emphasized clearly that these things were going to happen before this same generation would pass. It would be one thing if Jerusalem wasn't destroyed and all of her priests weren't killed, but both happened in 70 AD exactly as John and Christ predicted.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2020

Runningman said:

You hit on it. Jesus said His coming would be like a flood, not that it would be a flood. He is using symbolism, His coming would be like a flood in its suddenness. He is comparing the time of Noah to the time of His generation as they would not be aware of when Christ would come. This isn't the only place we are told this concept. We are taught that Christ would come as a thief in the night. He would come without warning to the unbelieving Jew.

This is NOT dealing with the whole planet. It is only dealing with Israel. If it isn't clear in the Mat 24 passage, look for other places this is discussed. Peter really sheds light on this in Acts 3:

23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

Peter is talking about His countrymen, the Jewish people. No other country is in focus. Then in Luke 19, Jesus makes clear why they were about to lose everything. They didn't know the time of Christ's visit and that's why they didn't believe in Him.

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Thus I believe when 70 AD was over, all the disbelieving Jews had been killed. This 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem is the only destruction mentioned and it is repeated over and over again. Grandiose language, like cosmic disturbances is used just as the same was used in earlier country's destruction as I pointed out in a previous post.

I believe that the Bible focuses almost entirely on the second earth age with the exception of the first ten chapters of Genesis and last 3 chapters of Revelation. The second earth age went from Abraham, the Father of Israel (and other nations) and ran through 70 AD, the end of Israel. Very little is left undone and most of that we will realize when we die.

PlainWord · Jul 4, 2020

The 70 AD destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and its temple is the climax of the Bible. Almost all of Revelation deals with it. It is the end of the Jewish people as a nation and their 2,000 year journey as a country and as God's chosen people. Very little is told of our age and our modern civilization. None of our modern technology such as space flight, skyscrapers, nuclear weapons, computers, etc are mentioned as Signs to Christ's return. Only first century signs are given.

Absolutely · Jul 4, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

1. There is no pre-trib rapture/catching up found in the scripture, no place, a false teaching of man.

2. There is no 7 year tribulation found in scripture, it will be 3.5 years, and start when the future Man of Sin is revealed in Jerusalem.

3. The Nations seen below clothed in white robes are the righteous saved, and they are in the Lord's spiritual realm, not in the physical realm of this earth.

Revelation 7:9-12KJV
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

""There is no pre-trib rapture/catching up found in the scripture, no place, a false teaching of man""

keep dreaming.
our verses,though ignored, are solid and destroy your deal.

you stand in ruins and are oblivious to it.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 4, 2020

PlainWord said:

First of all: Hogwash.

I do not know how in the world you can come to that conclusion.

(Whatever specifically applied to them alone, applied to them; whatever applies to the entire Body, applies to us also

And there indeed are things in both Thessalonians epistles that apply to the ENTIRE "ONE BODY"/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Paul was tasked with disclosing "doctrinal truths" pertaining especially to it!])

Do you believe Paul was told the precise day [as in, date on the calendar] that "the Church which is His body" would be summed up (and taken to the "episynagoges UNTO HIM" [/"our Rapture"/"THE Departure"])? I don't.

But I do believe he indeed knew what that is (the "ONE BODY"--1Cor12:12, etc), and when it started, as well as doctrine pertaining especially to it (this, he was tasked with disclosing, so surely he knew much about it, but this doesn't mean he grasped it would be summed up / and taken up some nearly 2000 years later).

Secondly, to be clear (since your post is kind of BLURRING these issues together), when I wrote about the "proleptic 'you'" in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew section), I am NOT saying THIS [that context] refers and applies to "the Church which is His body" [/us]... but to THOSE TO WHOM "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" was promised. [read again Acts 1:6 and Acts 3:21 pertaining to *this* particular topic].

IOW, NOTHING in the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [disclosed and explained elsewhere]... so it ain't addressing "US"/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"; Jesus was speaking on the Subject of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom and the specific, limited [future] time period that would immediately precede it and LEAD UP TO it (and which includes His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, variously called: "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]," "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," "the AGE [SINGULAR] to come," the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table / at a meal (Lk12:36-38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]!) and Matt8:11 and its parallel!]," and all "Son of man cometh/shall come/be come/coming of/etc" passages [<--which is His "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" designation (to judge and to reign)], the 10 or so "BLESSED" passages relating to this particular point in the chronology ("Judgment" precedes it, as another aspect of "the DOTL" earthly time-period), and even when "the 12" [as they were told] will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"(<--this pertains to the "UNTIL" thing in Acts 3:21... IOW, this hasn't happened/started yet); etc (too many more to cover here in this post)

Runningman · Jul 4, 2020

PlainWord said:

You hit on it. Jesus said His coming would be like a flood, not that it would be a flood. He is using symbolism, His coming would be like a flood in its suddenness. He is comparing the time of Noah to the time of His generation as they would not be aware of when Christ would come. This isn't the only place we are told this concept. We are taught that Christ would come as a thief in the night. He would come without warning to the unbelieving Jew.

This is NOT dealing with the whole planet. It is only dealing with Israel. If it isn't clear in the Mat 24 passage, look for other places this is discussed. Peter really sheds light on this in Acts 3:

23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

Peter is talking about His countrymen, the Jewish people. No other country is in focus. Then in Luke 19, Jesus makes clear why they were about to lose everything. They didn't know the time of Christ's visit and that's why they didn't believe in Him.

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Thus I believe when 70 AD was over, all the disbelieving Jews had been killed. This 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem is the only destruction mentioned and it is repeated over and over again. Grandiose language, like cosmic disturbances is used just as the same was used in earlier country's destruction as I pointed out in a previous post.

I believe that the Bible focuses almost entirely on the second earth age with the exception of the first ten chapters of Genesis and last 3 chapters of Revelation. The second earth age went from Abraham, the Father of Israel (and other nations) and ran through 70 AD, the end of Israel. Very little is left undone and most of that we will realize when we die.

I think I understand why you believe the way you do, but I don't agree with it. You mentioned in your post that it was directed to Jews. I'm not Jewish, not even a little bit, and most people aren't either. Nor was I born within the timeframe of Jesus up to 70 AD.

All I've gotten out of this is you think the climax has come and gone thousands of years ago and we all today are striving against the inevitable and vainly grasping for the return of Christ.

What do you say to people alive today? What about gentiles? Can we still have salvation through faith in Christ?

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 4, 2020

PlainWord said:

Again, there is a distinction [that many people conflate] between the phrases:

--"the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT"; and

--"Behold, I come AS A THIEF. [period]"

...the former is speaking of an earthly TIME-PERIOD that ARRIVES and PRECEDES His Own Personal ARRIVAL [/presence; to the earth)];
the latter is speaking of He Himself (His Own Personal ARRIVAL [/presence] to the earth Rev19, Rev16:15-16 [Armageddon-timing]), and this latter one (when speaking of HE HIMSELF and HIS OWN ARRIVAL/presence to the earth) never uses the added phrase "IN THE NIGHT" (like the other issue does, which pertains to the TIME-PERIOD instead [and that "time-period" involves "the man of sin" "IN HIS TIME" 2Th2:3-9a... at least the first aspects of it]).

acts5_29 · Jul 4, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

When is everybody asleep? At night. That is what "at night" means. Jesus comes back when everybody is asleep, so keep your lamps burning--that is what Jesus keeps saying over and over again. No need to create a false dichotomy where none exists.

acts5_29 · Jul 4, 2020

Runningman said:

To start, you need to read the full context of Acts 3:23, as PlainWord quoted. If you caught that, you would not be asking PlainWord that last question.

acts5_29 · Jul 4, 2020

PlainWord said:

PlainWord, how much have you studied the Bar Kochba revolt?

More Bible historians than not believe that Revelation was written post-70AD, but interestingly, that doesn't change the end result, when taking the 132AD Bar Kochba revolt into account. Two years AFTER the Romans flattened the Temple in 70AD, they put the Abomination of Desolation on the Temple Mount, turned Jerusalem into a pagan city, and forbade Jews from ever returning to the city except once a year to observe Tish Ba'av. Then the Antichrist (Bar Kochba) and the False Prophet (Rabbi Akiva) came along and revolted. Christians were forced to serve in Bar Kochba's army to fight Rome; even children--and anyone who didn't was executed. Hence, Jesus' command to flee to the hills once you see the AoD. The rebellion lasted for THREE AND A HALF YEARS. In the end, 530,000 Jews were slaughtered, so I have to believe it was only then that the Jewish nation was over. Half a million is a lot.

This places the climax of the Bible with the siege of Betar--not the siege of Jerusalem (although personally I consider jesus' time on earth the climax).

Runningman · Jul 4, 2020

acts5_29 said:

I just read the context for Acts 3:23 and it didn't come close to answering my question from PlainWord's perspective. What should I have understood from that scripture? Maybe I am not looking at it with the right questions in mind.

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