The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hey TDW
Delighted you recognize at least this much. But then you apparently start placing 2,000 year gaps to the adjoining verses. What lets you do that?

I already explained the CHRONOLOGY / SEQUENCE issues:

--Verse 12 informs us that "the beginning of birth PANGS" come AFTER the 70ad events (which are spelled out in vv.12-24);

--Verse 32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled" necessarily must include v.24's content, two ITEMS of which are VERY LENGTHY ITEMS: "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" AND "Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (but THOSE cannot have been "fulfilled" in the 70ad events because, as we know, Rev17:8 later informs us of "[when they behold the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"... and the "TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL" (which "TRODDEN DOWN OF" follows their being "led away captive into all the nations") parallels Rev11:2 which tells of a 42-mo period which, as the sequence goes, FOLLOWS/COMES AFTER the 70ad events [I do not say "immediately follows"]

...and that 42-mo period is the same time that Rev13:5-7,1 speaks of (when the 11-17 beast [2nd beast / false prophet] will make an image of the first beast, and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed (recall, this is AFTER their "be led away captive into all the nations" that the "and Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL...")

... and which "42-mo" is parallel with Daniel 7:20-25 with the description of the "another king" being described as "whose look is more stout than his fellows" and which parallel time-period ENDS with what v.27 says... but we recall that the "and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE TENSE]" of the beast comes AFTER the "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" (meaning, after the 70ad events, just like what comes EVEN AFTER "the beginning of birth PANGS" [8-11 (per its Matt24:4-8 parallel info)] is the "there shall be GREAT TRIBULATION [see where Rev7:9,14 has THIS involving "a great multitude... OF ALL THE NATIONS"], such as was not since the beginning of the world [kosmos] to this time, no, nor ever shall be" )

Luke 21:24a??? Are you serious? Do you see a massive gap in time? I sure don't. It all flows through the rest of the chapter, good buddy:
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring. etc.
Was Jerusalem trapped by the Romans in 70 AD? Did they leave when they were done? That was the time of the Gentiles.

Except, it is saying "the TIMES of"... which parallels the "TIMES" that "passed over" Nebuchadnezzar (as the "head of gold," or representative head), that being "seven times"... the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE TENSE]" from when Revelation was written... (etc etc).

Your "chronology" is all messed up, man.

 

[Truth7t7]

At the time of your death Jesus will appear at your death and he will judge you RIGHT THEN in his kingdom that is NOT OF THIS WORLD.

So all the scriptures that reference the coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens are actually at every person's individual death?

 

[Absolutely]

Absolutely said:
Show me.

The only postrib gathering is in heaven.
Rev 19 shows THAT GATHERING. It says the BRIDE has become THE WIFE.
That happens in heaven.

Think about it.

In your template you have the church gathered at the release of the king coming with the saints on white horses.
They meet the Lord in the clouds....NEVER SEE HEAVEN!!!

Poorly thought out and ONLY WORKS if my verses are either ignored or reframed.
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
Th14e dialog at the last supper
The ac killing every human refusing the mark
1 thes 4(only those in christ resurrected....and that pre living saints) you have it post living...[rev 14])

You need all that changed!!!!
Wow

You continue to post numbers of verses, but no actual "Written Scripture", why?

You continue to provide your opinions but no "Written Scripture", why?

Post you "Written" scripture and then debate begins.

14,25,24,19 "Hike"!

Lol
You skip my verses every single time.

 

[KJV1611]

So all the scriptures that reference the coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens are actually at every person's individual death?

Jesus came the second time when he left hell at his resurrection, that is the second coming when Jesus returned with all power and all glory. Jesus also comes to every believer just prior to the believers death and brings them into heaven in a glorified body.

Some verses are about his return from hell but some verses are also about his appearing at our death. If there is a third coming where Jesus returns to this earth again, I haven’t found it yet. Every verse that I know of fits into each of the categories I just mentioned.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus came the second time when he left hell at his resurrection, that is the second coming when Jesus returned with all power and all glory. Jesus also comes to every believer just prior to the believers death and brings them into heaven in a glorified body.

Some verses are about his return from hell but some verses are also about his appearing at our death. If there is a third coming where Jesus returns to this earth again, I haven’t found it yet. Every verse that I know of fits into each of the categories I just mentioned.

Please Post the verses that you believe shows the second coming of Jesus Christ taking place at a person's individual death?

 

[TMS]

Preterism is an absurd and heretical view of Bible prophecies. But well-known Christian personalities such as R. C. Sproul, James Kennedy, Hank Hannegraaf, and Jay Adams promote the heresy of Preterism. According to someone “it is spreading like wildfire” on social media. That is why Christian should know how absurd and heretical this view of prophecy really is, and reject it out of hand.

The heresy is primarily in the rejection of the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church and the real, visible, tangible, physical Second Coming of Christ with all His saints and angels, to the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19 and many other passages), and events to follow.

“According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.” [Got Questions]
.

I agree preterism is an absurd view of prophesy. But so is Futurism. Some people already have their mind made up and can't see things in any way that is different to their traditional or appealing view. both are unbalance and unbiblical.
If you look at history honestly, futurism and preterism were created by the Roman Catholic Church because the reformation preachers unanimously identified the papal system as the Antichrist, and the Roman Church as Babylon—causing a mass exodus of believers out of the Catholic institution.
Because Rome realized that the Reformation could jeopardize her position as a religio-political power, she employed stratergies in what became known as the Counter Reformation. One of those strategies was the creation of futurism and preterism, two different interpretations of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. These interpretations contradicted the reformers' stance of historicism.

Futurism is just as dangerous but in the other direction.

Historicism is the Biblical way to interperate the prophecies in the Bible.
If the Antichrist is still to come or if the Antichrist was in the past you disagree with the reformers’ belief that the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy is taking place throughout history. You need to ask if these strategies to confuse, set in place hundreds of years ago have worked on you.

"Froom" sums up this entire discussion quite well:
"The Preterist finds only the contemporary meaning [at the time of the writer] of the Revelation as applicable to the early church, and the Futurist sees the prophecy as projected into a remote age to come, but the Historicist sees that the Revelation had its function first in counseling and encouraging the early Christians in the vicissitudes through which they were passing, while at the same time extending its prophetic pictures beyond their range of vision to the final victory. Otherwise its portrayal of the Second Advent, the judgment, and the kingdom of God have no meaning for our day." (Froom v.1, p.89.)
research it yourself and be open, the web will give you the answer you want but if your willing to read you will find the truth. test it to the sure word of God.

 

[PlainWord]

The men of Galilee were looking up into to heaven at Jesus. What was Stephen doing when he died?

(Act 7:55) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Yes but Stephen didn't come in like manner afterwards. And in John 14, Jesus said He was leaving to prepare a place (heaven) and when He returned, He would receive them unto Himself. That where He was, they would be also. When He rose from the dead, did He receive them unto Himself and did they get to stay with Him forevermore after that?

 

[PlainWord]

Please Post the verses that you believe shows the second coming of Jesus Christ taking place at a person's individual death?

Yeah, I think he's out there on a limb a little bit on that one. I believe we go to Jesus when we die, He doesn't come to us. When we get to Heaven, then we are judged.

 

[PlainWord]

I agree preterism is an absurd view of prophesy. But so is Futurism. Some people already have their mind made up and can't see things in any way that is different to their traditional or appealing view. both are unbalance and unbiblical.
If you look at history honestly, futurism and preterism were created by the Roman Catholic Church because the reformation preachers unanimously identified the papal system as the Antichrist, and the Roman Church as Babylon—causing a mass exodus of believers out of the Catholic institution.
Because Rome realized that the Reformation could jeopardize her position as a religio-political power, she employed stratergies in what became known as the Counter Reformation. One of those strategies was the creation of futurism and preterism, two different interpretations of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. These interpretations contradicted the reformers' stance of historicism.

Futurism is just as dangerous but in the other direction.

Historicism is the Biblical way to interperate the prophecies in the Bible.
If the Antichrist is still to come or if the Antichrist was in the past you disagree with the reformers’ belief that the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy is taking place throughout history. You need to ask if these strategies to confuse, set in place hundreds of years ago have worked on you.

"Froom" sums up this entire discussion quite well:
"The Preterist finds only the contemporary meaning [at the time of the writer] of the Revelation as applicable to the early church, and the Futurist sees the prophecy as projected into a remote age to come, but the Historicist sees that the Revelation had its function first in counseling and encouraging the early Christians in the vicissitudes through which they were passing, while at the same time extending its prophetic pictures beyond their range of vision to the final victory. Otherwise its portrayal of the Second Advent, the judgment, and the kingdom of God have no meaning for our day." (Froom v.1, p.89.)
research it yourself and be open, the web will give you the answer you want but if your willing to read you will find the truth. test it to the sure word of God.

Historicism is a joke and Froom is an idiot. Sure historical events tend to repeat, especially to those who don't learn from history. Time is not linear. Time is like a noodle in a jar of noodles, occasionally retracing the same place and when it does, similar events repeat. Events happening in America today closely resemble 1968. In both eras we have massive civil unrest, disobedience, lawlessness and violence while a pandemic was taking place. In 1968 it was the Hong Kong flu. But history isn't repeating, similar events are repeating.

In the Bible, Jesus came, was crucified for remission of sins and ascended to heaven. He is not going to repeat that event. However, an invading army (Babylon) came and destroyed the temple. 600 years later, another invading army (Rome) came and destroyed the temple. Was this same event repeated? NO!! It was a different temple with different people involved. Prophetic events generally are fulfilled once such as the coming of Christ, the destruction of the temple, etc.

Reformation preachers were wrong about the RCC being Babylon and the Papal system as antichrist. Babylon was the Roman Empire of the first century in an unholy alliance with the Harlot, the Jewish religious order of the first century before its destruction. There was a beast - Nero. The word "antichrist" does not appear in Revelation nor does Jesus ever use the term in His prophesies. Only John uses the term and he adds that there are many antichrists. He then defines the term: Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. All atheists today are antichrists under John's definition.

Preterism or inmillennialism is the only model that works without placing scripture at odds with scripture. Futurism calls Christ a liar or at best, uninformed as to the timing of His return. Historicism is way to try and compromise with other prophetic models. It is lukewarm hogwash. Sorry.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus came the second time when he left hell at his resurrection, that is the second coming when Jesus returned with all power and all glory. Jesus also comes to every believer just prior to the believers death and brings them into heaven in a glorified body.

Some verses are about his return from hell but some verses are also about his appearing at our death. If there is a third coming where Jesus returns to this earth again, I haven’t found it yet. Every verse that I know of fits into each of the categories I just mentioned.

I don't like to disagree with you good buddy on this because I agree with most of what you write. However, you forgot one thing Jesus is supposed to do during His return which He did not do upon His resurrection return or at an individual's death. He didn't pour out His wrath against His enemies.

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Where and when was this flaming fire taking vengeance in your model? It's in mine, at the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[PlainWord]

TDW,

I'm having a hard time following you honestly because of the way you manipulate the Word to fit your view rather than letting the Word inform your views. Mat 24 is given in total chronological order. Don't allow your interpretation of Revelation to alter the order of Mat 24.

I already explained the CHRONOLOGY / SEQUENCE issues:

--Verse 12 informs us that "the beginning of birth PANGS" come AFTER the 70ad events (which are spelled out in vv.12-24);

These birth pangs or beginning of sorrows precede the 70 AD events. They precede the 66-69 AD events too.

hear of wars and rumors of wars, nation will rise against nation - During Nero’s reign Rome went to war with the Parthians, there was a war in Britain, Germany and various other rebellious disturbances across the empire. All these uprisings and wars immediately preceded the Jewish War in fulfillment of vs. 6-7. In A.D. 66, toward the end of Nero’s reign, the province of Israel revolted against Rome.

famines, pestilences - During the reign of Claudius Caesar, the emperor immediately preceding Nero, a colossal famine struck the Roman world. Concerning this famine, James Stuart Russell writes, “In the fourth year of his [Claudius] reign, the famine in Judea was so severe, that the price of food became enormous and great numbers perished. In Acts 7:11 and 11:28 record great famines "throughout the whole world."

and earthquakes in various places - One example of the earthquakes mentioned in v. 7 is the earthquake that struck Laodicea sometime between A.D. 60 and A.D. 64 during the reign of Nero. It is interesting to note that one of the churches addressed by John in the Book of Revelation was a church in this city (Revelation 3:14-22). Prior to A.D. 70 there were also earthquakes in Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Hierapolis, Colossae, Campania, Rome and Judea.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. This happened in earnest under Nero as he killed Peter and Paul around 66 AD.

Revelation 6-19 all occurred during the 66-70 AD time frame which coincides with the first, second and third siege. The last siege by Titus, was the Great Tribulation. It was during this period that saw the most suffering.

Rev 20-22 mainly deals with our afterlife.

Christ returned to oversee the destruction of the temple. Thus all of the Olivet is told in the correct order as the events unfolded.

Your "chronology" is all messed up, man.

Actually, that accusation belongs at your doorstep my good friend.

 

[Absolutely]

Please Post the verses that you believe shows the second coming of Jesus Christ taking place at a person's individual death?

Post yours since you will skip anything not in your preconception

 

[Absolutely]

I agree preterism is an absurd view of prophesy. But so is Futurism. Some people already have their mind made up and can't see things in any way that is different to their traditional or appealing view. both are unbalance and unbiblical.
If you look at history honestly, futurism and preterism were created by the Roman Catholic Church because the reformation preachers unanimously identified the papal system as the Antichrist, and the Roman Church as Babylon—causing a mass exodus of believers out of the Catholic institution.
Because Rome realized that the Reformation could jeopardize her position as a religio-political power, she employed stratergies in what became known as the Counter Reformation. One of those strategies was the creation of futurism and preterism, two different interpretations of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. These interpretations contradicted the reformers' stance of historicism.

Futurism is just as dangerous but in the other direction.

Historicism is the Biblical way to interperate the prophecies in the Bible.
If the Antichrist is still to come or if the Antichrist was in the past you disagree with the reformers’ belief that the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy is taking place throughout history. You need to ask if these strategies to confuse, set in place hundreds of years ago have worked on you.

"Froom" sums up this entire discussion quite well:
"The Preterist finds only the contemporary meaning [at the time of the writer] of the Revelation as applicable to the early church, and the Futurist sees the prophecy as projected into a remote age to come, but the Historicist sees that the Revelation had its function first in counseling and encouraging the early Christians in the vicissitudes through which they were passing, while at the same time extending its prophetic pictures beyond their range of vision to the final victory. Otherwise its portrayal of the Second Advent, the judgment, and the kingdom of God have no meaning for our day." (Froom v.1, p.89.)
research it yourself and be open, the web will give you the answer you want but if your willing to read you will find the truth. test it to the sure word of God.

Not really
The historicist comes to the impossibilities of that notion while reading the bible.

....but reasons them away or gets past those speed bumps through clever spiritualizing.

Historicist view is poorly thought out.

 

[Absolutely]

Look,the church fathers coexisted with a destroyed Jerusalem and a scattered disenfranchised Jewish people.

Their views were marinated in the mess they saw.

Enter 1947/48
The rebirth of Israel reset the prophetic clock.

Historicist view is destroyed by history.

 

[PlainWord]

Look,the church fathers coexisted with a destroyed Jerusalem and a scattered disenfranchised Jewish people.

Their views were marinated in the mess they saw.

Enter 1947/48
The rebirth of Israel reset the prophetic clock.

Historicist view is destroyed by history.

Lived with? You mean were overjoyed by it. Who do you think was doing most of the persecuting of the early church prior to 70 AD. Sure, Nero in Rome, but everywhere else it was the Jews persecuting the Christians. The tormenting stopped when the unbelieving Jews were destroyed.

What does 1948 have to do with anything? It was an event not found in the Bible. It has no significance to any event in the Bible. God desolated Israel for 70 years by the Babylonians. Then He must have really been mad in 70 AD because He desolated them for 1,878 years for killing His Son.

 

[KJV1611]

Please Post the verses that you believe shows the second coming of Jesus Christ taking place at a person's individual death?

I’ll do one at a time so we can discuss them if needed.

1Th 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes but Stephen didn't come in like manner afterwards. And in John 14, Jesus said He was leaving to prepare a place (heaven) and when He returned, He would receive them unto Himself. That where He was, they would be also. When He rose from the dead, did He receive them unto Himself and did they get to stay with Him forevermore after that?

Stephen was not supposed to come in like manner. Stephen was leaving, not coming. Jesus came to Stephen in like manner as Jesus left at the ascension.... in the air with 10000’s of his saints.

The place was prepared in heaven the second Jesus died. At that moment the dead in Christ could be taken to heaven at any time because their sins were paid in full. Nobody has to go to Abraham’s bosom after Christ’s death, we are translated directly into heaven.

 

[KJV1611]

I don't like to disagree with you good buddy on this because I agree with most of what you write. However, you forgot one thing Jesus is supposed to do during His return which He did not do upon His resurrection return or at an individual's death. He didn't pour out His wrath against His enemies.

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Where and when was this flaming fire taking vengeance in your model? It's in mine, at the destruction of Jerusalem.

I feel the same way about disagreeing with you bro. 😊

This one will take a while to respond to and I have lots to do today so I’ll have to cake back to this later.

 

[PlainWord]

I feel the same way about disagreeing with you bro. 😊

This one will take a while to respond to and I have lots to do today so I’ll have to cake back to this later.

Yeah, you're gonna have lots of splaining to do on this one.

 

[KJV1611]

Yeah, you're gonna have lots of splaining to do on this one.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

When does a believer rest from all the tribulations he faces in this life?

When is the Lord revealed from heaven for a believer?