Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

No born again person is without sin . If we say we have no sin, we are not being truthful. Why? Because we have that spiritual side which is willing to not sin but we have the "human nature" side which is sometimes difficult to control. As long as we are in these bodies of flesh, we will sin; omission, commission.

Praise God we have someone who has covered our sins with His blood

In the grace wherein we not stand Romans 5.....and because of this positioning of grace.....where sin abounds, grace abounds the more. <--written unto the saved!

 

[BillG]

I agree with you that this isn't a correct interpretation in that context. I just conceded to his understanding to show what is wrong with this teaching. It upsets me how people who present this teachings are never able to heal others or help others be sinless. Everything ends with the claims of themselves being sinless, and beating other believers on the head. If you have a power from God, then by all means extend it to others so they can also be healed and empowered. That's fruitless, and not the way power of God had been used throughout the Bible.

Point 1. Healing given by God is given to those who do sin.
Point 2. It's God who helps others to sin less. Which we should aspire to.
Point 3. Claiming you do not sin and telling others you do not is a lie.
Point 4. Those who say they do not sin God will not use. Pharisees.

I could go on.

 

[dcontroversal]

I think this ......

Titus 3:4-8
“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

As much as has been covered in this thread....It blows my mind, how many pit Paul against James while in ignorance not understanding that James is speaking of a mere belief IN GOD and not saving faith, he is also speaking to HOW MEN CAN SEE THE FAITH that justifies us before GOD WITHOUT WORKS......is is getting to be a sad joke really......!

 

[dcontroversal]

That doesn't speak to repentance and conversion, but purely to trying to earn salvation through meritorious works which is not what I am saying at all. You're arguing for a "faith" that changes nothing, that inspires no action, that is worthless. There's no hope in the faith you present and it's certainly far off from the call of Christ that bids us to come and die.

No, she is making no such argument........

 

[EleventhHour]

As much as has been covered in this thread....It blows my mind, how many pit Paul against James while in ignorance not understanding that James is speaking of a mere belief IN GOD and not saving faith, he is also speaking to HOW MEN CAN SEE THE FAITH that justifies us before GOD WITHOUT WORKS......is is getting to be a sad joke really......!

Yes, as we see in the Calvinism thread........contextual dishonesty over and over.

 

[dcontroversal]

Speak for yourself.

I'm not going to let my flesh rule me and end up in a state where I deny scriptures so brazenly.

You already are denying and ignoring scripture incessantly on sin in a believer!

Peter was saved, immersed, walked with Jesus, was an apostle, raised the dead, walked on water, preached the truth, healed the sick, had power over devils and flat LIED WHEN HE SAID I DON'T KNOW JESUS 3 times and even cussed about it in the process.

Get over yourself....YOU SIN....exactly why we are positioned in GRACE AND IT OUTBOUNDS our sin.....!

 

[Magenta]

My yoke is light. At what point is enough belief? Is it entertaining the idea as possible? Kinda believing it but holding onto a little doubt? Being convinced, but still allowing for the possibility of being wrong? Being completely and totally convinced? The knife of "how much" cuts both ways.
And no, I don't believe that we somehow are fictitiously righteous without actually demonstrating righteousness.

Whose righteousness do you possess?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Whose righteousness do you possess?

The righteousness of God.

 

[SoulWeaver]

No born again person is without sin . If we say we have no sin, we are not being truthful. Why? Because we have that spiritual side which is willing to not sin but we have the "human nature" side which is sometimes difficult to control. As long as we are in these bodies of flesh, we will sin; omission, commission.

Praise God we have someone who has covered our sins with His blood

Not to say that we don't grow and mature when it comes to self control and denying the flesh. But it's a process of growth and not an instantaneous pop. We strengthen the spirit with milk of the Word so we can possess the meat of the Word (works, the Word becoming flesh/manifesting tangibly in the world). There is a growth, from babes into maturity. But by sinless perfectionism logic a babe in Christ will be instantly fully skilled in the Word of God and walk right off the rib, having conquered the meat! I do not believe the claims of mastering the Word of God instantly, and having not wrestled the flesh, as was claimed earlier. I know that when I started following Jesus that the flesh threw quite a tantrum, because where things used to go smoothly, now there was opposition. Any sin or bad habit you want to break, the flesh fights back. For some things it's an easy victory. Sometimes it's harder and struggle. But we eventually prevail.

But this isn't to have no sin, and I don't believe such claims from people, I think they are turning a blind eye to their errors when they do err. The scrutiny of the Holy Spirit is absolute, He can't tolerate a speck of sin or something being just slightly off the mark, it's not a hit it's a miss. To have no sin whatsoever and be perfect, it is a very high standard.

 

[Bbrdrd]

As much as has been covered in this thread....It blows my mind, how many pit Paul against James while in ignorance not understanding that James is speaking of a mere belief IN GOD and not saving faith, he is also speaking to HOW MEN CAN SEE THE FAITH that justifies us before GOD WITHOUT WORKS......is is getting to be a sad joke really......!

What, precisely, in James do you see as leaning in that direction? James clearly states that "As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. " so to say he wasn't speaking of justification requires quite a bit of defense. Especially considering he referred to the same justification of Abraham that Paul refers to. So what in the context of James causes you to say that James is speaking of "how men can see" rather than what justifying faith actually entails?

 

[EleventhHour]

To have no sin whatsoever and be perfect, it is a very high standard.

It is a "state of being" only Jesus has... LOL

 

[Magenta]

What, precisely, in James do you see as leaning in that direction? James clearly states that "As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. " so to say he wasn't speaking of justification requires quite a bit of defense. Especially considering he referred to the same justification of Abraham that Paul refers to. So what in the context of James causes you to say that James is speaking of "how men can see" rather than what justifying faith actually entails?

Abraham was justified by faith prior to works.

If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

[Bbrdrd]

Abraham was justified by faith prior to works.

If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Yes, but his faith was made complete by his actions. They were of one accord, each testifying to the other. Before Abraham was "accounted righteous" in Genesis 15:6 he by faith left his home and all he had known. James isn't saying Abraham's works were meritorious, as it is God and God alone who saves us, but that the faith and works form a unified picture.

 

[Magenta]

Not to say that we don't grow and mature when it comes to self control and denying the flesh. But it's a process of growth and not an instantaneous pop. We strengthen the spirit with milk of the Word so we can possess the meat of the Word (works, the Word becoming flesh/manifesting tangibly in the world). There is a growth, from babes into maturity. But by sinless perfectionism logic a babe in Christ will be instantly fully skilled in the Word of God and walk right off the rib, having conquered the meat! I do not believe the claims of mastering the Word of God instantly, and having not wrestled the flesh, as was claimed earlier. I know that when I started following Jesus that the flesh threw quite a tantrum, because where things used to go smoothly, now there was opposition. Any sin or bad habit you want to break, the flesh fights back. For some things it's an easy victory. Sometimes it's harder and struggle. But we eventually prevail.

But this isn't to have no sin, and I don't believe such claims from people, I think they are turning a blind eye to their errors when they do err. The scrutiny of the Holy Spirit is absolute, He can't tolerate a speck of sin or something being just slightly off the mark, it's not a hit it's a miss. To have no sin whatsoever and be perfect, it is a very high standard.

You are as gracious and eloquent as ever

 

[Magenta]

Yes, but his faith was made complete by his actions. They were of one accord, each testifying to the other. Before Abraham was "accounted righteous" in Genesis 15:6 he by faith left his home and all he had known. James isn't saying Abraham's works were meritorious, as it is God and God alone who saves us, but that the faith and works form a unified picture.

Abraham was still justified, by faith alone, prior to works. Works follow justification.

We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

 

[Bbrdrd]

Abraham was still justified, by faith alone, prior to works. Works follow justification.

We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Absolutely, he was justified by faith alone. But faith is not empty, it's not simply belief or acceptance of a true proposition. Faith without works is not actually faith, which is James' point. Faith requires action. It requires stepping out on the ledge, making yourself vulnerable, taking risks. Without such it is not faith.

 

[EleventhHour]

What, precisely, in James do you see as leaning in that direction? James clearly states that "As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone. " so to say he wasn't speaking of justification requires quite a bit of defense. Especially considering he referred to the same justification of Abraham that Paul refers to. So what in the context of James causes you to say that James is speaking of "how men can see" rather than what justifying faith actually entails?

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Justified before God

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath something of which to glory, but not before God.

God does not need action to justify. Abraham was justified by his faith

Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works, when he had offered Isaac, his son, upon the altar? (James 2:21)
He was justified before men/the world.
He was called the "Friend of God"

 

[Bbrdrd]

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Justified before God

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath something of which to glory, but not before God.

God does not need action to justify. Abraham was justified by his faith

Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works, when he had offered Isaac, his son, upon the altar? (James 2:21)
He was justified before men/the world.
He was called the "Friend of God"

Last time I checked Romans 4 and Galatians 3 are not in James. I asked for context from James, but you demonstrate you're bringing the doctrine to James fully formed and then twisting James to suit your purpose and calling it "context."

 

[EleventhHour]

Last time I checked Romans 4 and Galatians 3 are not in James. I asked for context from James, but you demonstrate you're bringing the doctrine to James fully formed and then twisting James to suit your purpose and calling it "context."

There is only one Gospel unto salvation and I demonstrated how that is the case.

Works never saved........ not before the cross and not after.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Justified before God

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath something of which to glory, but not before God.

God does not need action to justify. Abraham was justified by his faith

Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works, when he had offered Isaac, his son, upon the altar? (James 2:21)
He was justified before men/the world.
He was called the "Friend of God"

I really like your thoughts here, actually all 3 of you bring up good points.
But when it comes to your last point:

Titus 2:5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
1 Timothy 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
1 Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation (=conduct) in Christ.

We are not supposed to give occasion to the world to blaspheme the name of God, by our bad conduct. Which is why God always judges His house first.
I've always thought that James was about works proceeding/resulting from salvation (confirmation that salvation did take place), but you might be right as well. I have to examine it again now.