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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,687
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#41
There is no certification for studies as broad as mine.
so.. you're not enrolled in any kind of degree program?
why not enroll in 3 or 4 simultaneously? i did :)


Well the gamma ray burst only took a couple of seconds

the average observed gamma ray burst duration from a nova is ~ 30 seconds.
under carefully staged experiments in the 60's-70's 'rigged to work' amine solutions were briefly irradiated with about 5 Mev.
they got amino acids, but they were not in proportions found in organic life and interestingly they were all right-helix, not left-helix, tho all organic life consists of only left-helix amino acids.


5 Mev. for comparison, gamma ray bursts generate on the order of 1,000,000 Mev. this kind of stuff disintegrates molecules; it doesn't produce more complex molecules -- see "entropy" -- not even the rigged experiments produce anything complex like proteins from amine soup. under the most favorable conditions, they produce the wrong concentrations of condensate acids with the wrong geometries. these 'most favorable conditions' are definitively not at all like any known conditions on the early earth; this is why panspermia became the prevailing life-origin theory among people who muse about such things. because experiment after experiment showed it couldn't possibly happen on earth, the thinkers decided in such a huge universe there must be a place somewhere where those conditions exist - and even more speculatively, ideal conditions such as no lab has ever been able to replicate, that no one has ever been able to describe, wherein the right proportions of L-amino acids, not R-amino acids, might have formed, and formed in an environment shielded from such things as gamma radiation, which is very well known to destroy complex organics. it is speculated that unimaginable conditions must have existed elsewhere because they are completely unimaginable here: hence, panspermia, turtles all the way down. problem is unsolvable in any known space: assume a space exists where it is solvable.

i still would like to know what advantage you consider there to be when you hypothesize a proto-planet in this solar system rather than some exotic & unknown set of conditions in some undiscovered part of the universe..? and how you get around the known effects of millions of MeV on chemicals of any degree of structure..? as far as i know GRB's may trigger star formation, but that's by compressing hydrogen clouds - the more complex an atom or molecule, the more GRB's stand to decimate them. my first impression of the idea is that it's akin to burning a yule log and by virtue of the energy of the applied flame, expecting the ashes, after rising with the heat, to fall again neatly to the ground in the form of a living tree planted in the ground. i see a great potential for fundamental thermodynamic problems with what i've read you describe so far ;)
 
Jul 18, 2020
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#42
God from the beginning chose the Jewish people to bring forth His bloodline, that would eventually make redemption available for all mankind. All the abstruse wording in the world can't save a soul if it's contrary in any way to God's Truth in the Bible.
How does one determine what that Truth is? Fundamentalism is a form of idolatry because it makes the Bible into an idol to be interpreted by local leaders. In its modern form fundamentalism was basically started by Martin Luther and other reactionary Protestants in their fight against the Catholic Church. Because copies of Bibles could be printed inexpensively, everyone was supposed to read the Bible and be able to interpret it themselves. Few people, however, could do the extensive research necessary to figure out what passages meant within the context of the ancient authors. People were told to take the passages literally, unless it was an "obvious" metaphor. This insured that most of the ambiguous passages were interpreted in a manner contrary to their author's intent.
 
Jul 18, 2020
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#43
no;
Solomon also clearly defines "
understanding" in Proverbs and although yes, it is spiritual, it isn't a topic of ethics -- it is theological. therefore it is 'spiritual' because God is Spirit, not because 'morality' -- moral behavior derives from theology, which is spiritual, but behavior as an objective element is descriptive of the flesh, a corporeal thing, not the spirit.

i'm getting the picture that you are not actually very familiar with the Bible, @larens, so i'll go ahead and post that one for you :)

the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
(Proverbs 9:10)
I will confess to not being able to read the Bible in the original languages it which it was written. Can you? I have to resort to commentary to separate meanings that are conflated in English. "Knowledge" is an umbrella term in English, so your quotation is nearly useless.
 
Jul 18, 2020
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#44
Gamma radiation tends to destroy molecules, not make them more complex and "active" ((whatever 'active' means?))
"Activity" is a thermodynamic term. I use the word "active" because it only contains two syllables. It means that the form and concentration of the molecules are favorable for reactions that produce desired chemicals, mostly biological monomers in this case. When you "destroy" molecules with gamma radiation the fragments are far more active than the original molecules.

Why a proto planet in this solar system?
The prevailing theories on the topic ((none of which 'belong' to NASA - not sure what you mean to imply)) are all a version or another of panspermia - the most popular involving comets because of their water content. What makes yours unique? Other than involving a proto planet rather than an interlocutor from outside the immediate solar neighborhood?
NASA produced an Astrobiology Roadmap which has come to dominate astrobiology research because of NASA's large budget. The idea of spontaneous generation of life on wet planets, e.g., the Earth and icy moons that have an internal ocean, has been built into it from its first goal.

The possibility of interstellar panspermia is controversial because vacuum can destroy RNA in several years. Interplanetary panspermia within rocks is understood to be relatively easy. I did not say "proto planet". I am proposing that the early inner solar had resonantly locked orbits that were subsequently disrupted as the giant planets shifted. Ushas, the minor body to which I referred was a former carbonaceous chondritic satellite of Vesta when the system was between the Earth and Mars.

If a gamma ray burst cannot make life from nothing on earth, why should it on some other planet? Isn't this "turtles all the way down"?
The Earth has a hydrological system where desalination is by evaporation. As a consequence proto-biomolecules are rapidly diluted. Ushas had a hydrological system with desalination by freezing. This leads to concentrating desirable chemicals. The lack of atmosphere and orbit created a deep freezing and thawing region that further concentrated molecules by 2-D and 3-D crystallization. The thermal inertia of oceans prevents this type of region.
 
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#45
Besides philosophical compatibility, the evidence for Israelite religion coming from Mesopotamian Moon worship is that the founder came from the two cities that were the centers of Moon worship and his cohort had names from that subculture. What is your evidence against?
 
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#47
the ubiquity of law in the universe is direct evidence of monotheism, not a reality for which monotheism is a substitutionary analogy.
You also seem to like to pontificate on ambiguous points of definition that have no great significance. This one goes into the ignostic waste basket.
 

TabinRivCA

Well-known member
Oct 23, 2018
12,416
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#48
How does one determine what that Truth is? Fundamentalism is a form of idolatry because it makes the Bible into an idol to be interpreted by local leaders. In its modern form fundamentalism was basically started by Martin Luther and other reactionary Protestants in their fight against the Catholic Church. Because copies of Bibles could be printed inexpensively, everyone was supposed to read the Bible and be able to interpret it themselves. Few people, however, could do the extensive research necessary to figure out what passages meant within the context of the ancient authors. People were told to take the passages literally, unless it was an "obvious" metaphor. This insured that most of the ambiguous passages were interpreted in a manner contrary to their author's intent.
The message of the Bible is simple. God is the eternal Creator and source of everything. Through belief in His Son, Jesus Christ, we will live forever with God in wondrous Heaven.
 
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#49
common mistake, but no;
they are in Leviticus 19 and in Deuteronomy 6: love the LORD your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.
No mistake. The Decalogue is definitely a longer statement of principles. You are just giving an alternative shorter version. Note that I said the commandments were not limited to the Decalogue
 
Jul 18, 2020
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#50
no.
Solomon clearly defines "
wisdom" both in Proverbs & in Ecclesiastes, and he doesn't describe it as "intellectual power" at all.
neither was the Chaldean culture humanist; not sure where you're getting this idea from but it's awfully renaissance-y in its naivety..
I know that the phrase "intellectual power" is not in the old writings. I am writing to make things comprehensible for a modern audience.
 
K

Kim82

Guest
#51
On the other hand, it becomes then so abstract and elaborate that only a few people can understand it well. This can lead to elitism and divide people.
So even before you have implemented your new religion you have failed.

In Christianity, the smart and the dumb are welcome. And even a person who has failed academically wise can debate those more educated than himself. How and why? Because God gives him knowledge. Practical knowledge for life's problems that the person who has attended the most prestigious university can never understand.

The elite among men are the rich, powerful and often times the ungodly. But how is it they have so much and they are unhappy?

In Christianity, money, power, education and status in life is not what matters because all those things are temporary.

To the making of many books there is no end. Every day another smart person comes up with new theories (Ecclesiastes 12:12). It never ends. But the words of God is to time indefinite. It does not go out of style and no one can improve on it or add anything to it.

I have come to this authority by developing the ideas. People who refuse to review my ideas, because I did not first get permission to develop them are just removing themselves from being able to say whether they are correct or not. I have expressed my ideas to lots of people and lots of people have listened, so they have not gone totally unreviewed. I wish that more people were able to understand them well enough to find errors. It is very difficult to see ones own errors so I have to constantly review my own work to catch them. At this point my work has become so broad that I need a team of people to help.
When God created the world and brought everything into existence, He did it by Himself. His word comes from Himself, no one advised Him.

But you show your limitations in that you have to look to other faulty, imperfect beings as yourself for help (we are all imperfect). So why will anyone forsake the teachings of God and listen to you?
 
Jul 18, 2020
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#52
@larens

this is the basis ((yes, i'm using that word in the linear algebraic sense)) for the law. not the decalogue. write yourself an augmented matrix of the decalogue in 10 variables and calculate its eigen-vector if you don't believe me; or simply believe Christ ((re: Matthew 22:35, Mark 12:28, Luke 10:27)) if you aren't able to crunch those numbers.
Now you are talking nonsense by injecting irrelevant mathematical terms into the conversation.
 
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#53
The message of the Bible is simple. God is the eternal Creator and source of everything. Through belief in His Son, Jesus Christ, we will live forever with God in wondrous Heaven.
With which scripture do you back this up? The conclusion of Revelation is New Jerusalem which descends from heaven. It is not in heaven.
 
Jul 18, 2020
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#54
So even before you have implemented your new religion you have failed.

In Christianity, the smart and the dumb are welcome. And even a person who has failed academically wise can debate those more educated than himself. How and why? Because God gives him knowledge. Practical knowledge for life's problems that the person who has attended the most prestigious university can never understand.[/QUOTE}

Does "debating" here mean what it means in the rest of the world, which is coming up with logically significant arguments that might convince someone? Posthuman has been deluging me with nitpicking and nonsense. The only "practical knowledge" I am likely to come up with if this continues, is that your community is as close-minded as others that I have recently experienced and I might better spend my time elsewhere.

The elite among men are the rich, powerful and often times the ungodly. But how is it they have so much and they are unhappy?

In Christianity, money, power, education and status in life is not what matters because all those things are temporary.
On these points we agree, so there is some basis for community.

To the making of many books there is no end. Every day another smart person comes up with new theories (Ecclesiastes 12:12). It never ends. But the words of God is to time indefinite. It does not go out of style and no one can improve on it or add anything to it.
Where are these "words of God"? There are presented as an intangible ideal, so they cannot exist in a tangible form, such as, the Bible.


When God created the world and brought everything into existence, He did it by Himself. His word comes from Himself, no one advised Him.

But you show your limitations in that you have to look to other faulty, imperfect beings as yourself for help (we are all imperfect). So why will anyone forsake the teachings of God and listen to you?
There are no "teachings of God" in the tangible world. There are only "faulty, imperfect beings" that write, take actions, and build institutions. The Bible is full of such stories, because much of it is history.
 
K

Kim82

Guest
#55
1) thermodynamic
2) ignostic
3) Interplanetary panspermia
4) sequiturs
5) proto-biomolecules
6) gamma ray burst
7) anthropomorphic
8) astrobiology
9) Magna Carta
10) Blue Marble Earth
woman-shrugging.jpg
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
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#56
"The medieval Shield of the Trinity graphically matches the truth values from the Polish school of logic. "God" is "true". "The Father" creates "physical" being. "The Son" oversees "information". "The Holy Spirit" motivates "consciousness". "False" is not shown. The fact that the verb "to be" is intransitive in the diagram is called the "mystery". Transitive means that if A=B and B=C, then A=C. Such "mysteries" are used in other religions to move toward spiritual enlightenment. For instance, in Zen Buddhism the question may be asked, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
Honestly no offense meant here mate, but I don't think you understand Zen. Transcendental isn't something that is understood cerebrally, that's the whole point of giving koans to students (and why Jesus chose to speak in parables)...
 
Jul 18, 2020
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#57
1) thermodynamic
2) ignostic
3) Interplanetary panspermia
4) sequiturs
5) proto-biomolecules
6) gamma ray burst
7) anthropomorphic
8) astrobiology
9) Magna Carta
10) Blue Marble Earth
View attachment 219217
Kim, I use a search engine many times a day to better understand words and phrases. I think every phrase you list is in a Wikipedia entry. Start with a general search engine first, e.g., Google. The Wikipedia search engine usually requires matching the title of the entry exactly to get a direct hit. If after reading the entries, you do not understand the phrases well enough to understand the sentences within which I used them, get back to me. You will probably have to look up some of the words and phrases within the entries as you are reading. I generally have to do that when I am working with an unfamiliar subject. Most of my knowledge comes from doing this for 20 years. Before literature went online, my learning was much slower. It took me about ten times longer to obtain a printed article than an online one. Have fun! - larens
 
K

Kim82

Guest
#58
"Does "debating" here mean what it means in the rest of the world, which is coming up with logically significant arguments that might convince someone?"

Yes that's what Christians do. We tell people about God, in hopes that they will believe and receive salvation.

We were not the ones who came to you, it was you who joined a Christian forum. So why be frustrated and rude because things aren't going your way?

Anyway you said you were going elsewhere.

Take Care.
 

TabinRivCA

Well-known member
Oct 23, 2018
12,416
10,080
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#59
With which scripture do you back this up? The conclusion of Revelation is New Jerusalem which descends from heaven. It is not in heaven.
Mat 18:3
And said, Verily I say to you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:23
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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#60
Honestly no offense meant here mate, but I don't think you understand Zen. Transcendental isn't something that is understood cerebrally, that's the whole point of giving koans to students (and why Jesus chose to speak in parables)...
So what is it that I am not understanding? Your statement is consistent with what I said. Both our statements are cerebral, since they are in writing.

As for your use of the word "snarky", I am not being snarky. I am not being derogatory in an indirect way. I am trying to be as direct as I can be without being overly blunt. I cannot give my replies long consideration, because I am under a barrage.

I did not slander anyone. I complained about verbal abuse of the rules of civil discussion.

The fact that "Jerusalem" has at least two meanings does not prevent me from choosing one of the meanings.