The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

[PlainWord]

An example of how stubborn pre-trib folks are is this case in point: They claim the Lord's coming as a thief in the night to rapture the saints just before the 7 years tribulation...I said, "Hey guys, 2 Peter 3:10 KJV says when the Lord comes a thief, there ain't gonna be seven more minutes let alone seven more years, because the Earth's gonna look like a bazillion nukes detonated". Their response? I kid you not:

"THE LORD IS COMING BACK AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT TWO TIMES,
FIRST AT THE RAPTURE AND THEN SEVEN YEARS LATER
AT HIS SECOND COMING."​

The Bible says, "Come, now, let us reason together" so I appealed to their sense of reason:

• The "left behind" fake news will have a "7 years tribulation" countdown clock at the top of the screen
• They'll be a spectacular "Jesus Ball" drop at Times Square a la New Year's Eve
• Don King will launch his greatest event promotion ever
• Ticketmaster and Stubhub tickets will sell out years before the event
• Beyonce, Kanye, Alice Cooper, and J. Beiber will be among the "Christian" headliners
• They'll launch the "Ready Or Not Here I Come!" 24 hour cable channel variety show
• The Sham Wow guy will be pitching SPF 1,000,000 for those concerned with "the brightness of His coming"
• Government PSAs will be warning people to avoid falling rocks and mountains during the final week
• Life insurance premiums will skyrocket into oblivion
• Sales of green bananas will plummet during the final week

Then I asked in light of all this, how the flip will ANYBODY be surprised by Jesus coming a second time? So far, only one guy commented and all he said was, "well that "Jesus Ball" thing was just blasphemous..."

LOL, awesome. I've got my eyes set on this gorgeous mansion in Newport Beach just waiting for the owners to get "raptured." But of course it ain't gonna happen and neither will the world "blow up" as you imagine. Peter was not discussing a global destruction. He discussed the works of the temple and its elements being destroyed.

 

[PlainWord]

I agree...that's why I know sincere Christians will do what God says when it comes time to do it. When the Papal Mark comes upon the world, you''ll say, "Dang, how did Kev know???!!!" and then you'll believe and prepare to resist it

You still believe the RCC and the pope are the beast? LOL. Well at least you got the Rome part correct but you just missed it by 1950 years. I don't know if you noticed or not but the world has been turning away from Catholicism. Maybe because of all the boys that have been molested or perhaps the church is considered too legalistic in its position on abortion and contraception, etc. Regardless, the RCC doesn't have a fraction of the power and influence it had in the 1500s to 1800s. They don't get to decide kings and rulers anymore like they did back then. They don't control the world's monetary system. Their current pope is a left wing radical communist, he isn't fooling anyone.

Gapper, the Catholic church isn't persecuting protestants anymore either. The fears of your SDA early leaders and founders while legitimate back than are no longer applicable today. So either accept that the Beast was the first century Roman Empire with its 7 Caesar heads in an unholy alliance with apostate Jerusalem (the Harlot) or find another candidate for the beast - the UN and George Soros, perhaps.

 

[PlainWord]

Gapper,

Let the slaying begin...

True Protestants protest Papal falsehoods - they don't defend Jesuit nonsense as you so passionately defend 16th century Jesuit Luis Alcazar's Preterist ideas. Miller was never my leader nor a prophet, but a pioneer who fought to awaken a reluctant "post-millennium return of Jesus" Christian world to the reality of His soon coming, which it didn't even begin to accept until Billy Graham began preaching it. Miller confused the "sanctuary" of Daniel 8 with the Earth, as many around the world did - a logical mistake for those who do not understand that Daniel was referring to the Heavenly Sanctuary in which is our High Priest.

Not a fan of the Jesuits and never heard any of their writings so any defense of their views is coincidental. Bottom line, Miller got it wrong. Since his views are wrong, and his followers formed the SDA church taking his false views into your church, this means your views are wrong too. No, Daniel referred to the sanctuary of the temple in the 160s BC in Dan 8. We don't need to speculate on this as we are told in the chapter the identity of the Ram and Goat.

20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.

Even the most casual observer of history can recognize this first king of Greece as Alexander the Great.

None of the Reformers claimed to be prophets, just sincere Bible believers. Will you throw out Matthew, Mark, and John - men who remained in the bosom of Jesus for 3 1/2 years and STILL got stuff wrong? No, you'll promote them as prophets, but condemn the Reformers who had only the Word constructed of leather and paper and vellum to embrace.

As I said, I very much admire the reformers and never said they claimed to be prophets. Their mistake was taking the persecution they were getting from the RCC which was brutal and mistaking it for the beast, etc. I am not aware of anything that Matthew, Mark and John got wrong. What are you talking about? I accept everything they wrote as the inspired Word of God. If you are talking about when they were still with Christ and still learning, that's fine.

I could shred your argument six ways to Sunday about "Antiochus the Chump" as being the Little Horn of Daniel 8, but that's another discussion. Again, Miller was no prophet nor was he an "idiot", just someone who got a little ahead of God in his eschatology.

Of course Antiochus was the Little Horn of Dan 8, what are you kidding? Try to shred this and I'll eat your lunch while I make you watch, LOL. The sanctuary was cleansed exactly 1,150 days after the swine was sacrificed matching exactly the 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices which were taken away. Read the 1st and 2nd Book of the Maccabees, they recognized they were fulfilling Daniel 8.

It was a mistake in hermenuetics, not a misunderstandings about Antiochus the Chump which led to the Millerite disappointment, and the only gaps I recognize are the gaps in Jesuit Preterist logic.

Miller made a mistake in hermenuetics? I'll say he did. Antiochus as the Little Horn of Dan 8 is perhaps the most obvious and perfectly fulfilled of any OT prophesy. You and your historicist buddies are going to have another "great disappointment." How long before you expect to see the world blow up? It's been 2,000 years. Do you need another 2,000? 10,000? 100,000 or a million years? At what point would you be wrong? You are just as mistaken as the futurists who turn "last days" into 2,000 years and counting. They set more dates than you guys but both of your views are laughing stocks to we preterists.

Again, the only gaps I see are gaps in you Jesuit Preterist logic. Peter was a racist. Paul was a murderous zealot. And NONE of the disciples believed Jesus rose on the third day. A person should be judged on the truth they carry now, not the mistakes abandoned after learning from them. Doctrines stands or fall based on Biblical scrutiny, and your Jesuit Preterism falls on its face like a worn out Hemi with fouled plugs and bad gas.

I drive a diesel so I wouldn't know about that.

It's no secret that Protestantism is going home to mother, and has been marching there for some time. Having a knowledge of Antichrist doctrine and corrupted Protestant doctrine does not amount to a knowledge of Protestant Historicism.

Again, I know enough about your views to reject them. Your views make Christ a liar or at least uninformed. That's all I need to know. You views or only slightly better than the gapper futurists who never opened a history book and think everything applies to them so they can fly away and escape death. What makes them so special?

At least they had the wherewithal to not succumb to the eschatological Stockholm Syndrome with which Jesuit Preterists suffer. You guys are so naive to think a religious system that can't even gain a proper position on something so elementary as "sola Scriptura" was somehow able to get end times prophecy right (well, not really, since fellow Jesuit Ribera authored Futurism).

Again, I am not familiar with Jesuit teachings. I developed my eschatology from in depth study of the Word and history. I used to be a futurists for 50+ years but was always bothered by all the verses that suggest a first century, same generation return. Christ clearly taught it and the disciples certainly expected it. Reading Josephus was like getting the answers to the Revelation test.

 

[PlainWord]

Wait, you'll reject the "remarkable unanimity" with which all the ECFs who commented spoke on the identity of the Restrainer - THE PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE - unanimity in their future expectation of the rise of an Antichrist which would be destroyed by the "brightness" of the coming of Christ which destroys the Jesuit Preterist argument that all prophecy was fulfilled before the close of the 1st century...but you'll cling to one singular, obscure, and ambiguous ("disciple" can refer to OT figures, as in Isaiah 8:16: "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.") reference? Can you see the glaring inconsistency?

Please show us which ECFs wrote that Christ already came. Oh, you mean you can't find a single line in all their writings concerning what would have been the fulfillment of the greatest prophecy, the "blessed hope", the Second Coming of Jesus?

I already showed you where one of the earliest ECF wrote that Christ returned. Ignatius wrote it down in his letter to the Mangesians.

9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.

However, since all these ECFs we are talking about lived in the Roman Empire, I bet it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to come right out and accuse their government as the beast or one of its past leaders as the antichrist.

 

[PlainWord]

That interpretation violates the prophetic timeline, which is easily and irrefutably shown from Scripture:

1. Jesus ascended to the Heavenly Sanctuary
2. Daniel said "unto 2,300 Days, then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed"
3. The 70 Weeks makes sense only as symbolic time, from Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. "commandment" to "Messiah"
4. The 70 Weeks were cut off from the 2,300 Days making the starting date for both is 457 B.C.
5. The OT "cleansing of the Sanctuary" saw the high priest move from Holy Place to the Most Holy Place.
6. Counting 2,300 symbolic days - literal years - from 457 B.C. brings the timeline down to 1844 A.D.
7. Only one literal Sanctuary stood at that time with our One and only great High Priest to cleanse it
8. The OT pattern has Jesus moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844 to cleanse it

Before each prophecy is given to John, Jesus' location in the Heavenly Sanctuary is described
either explicitly or implicitly.​

Therefore, when Jesus is depicted in the Holy Place, those prophecies begin to unfold BEFORE 1844, and conversely, when in the Most Holy Place, unfold AFTER 1844. The Seven Churches, Seals, and Trumpets began unfolding in John's day and continue down to our day, with the Church living in the Laodicean Age, the opening of the 6th Seal, and the sounding of the 6th Trumpet.

Wow, you sure have all of this messed up. Does the SDA church combine Dan 9's 70 weeks with Dan 8's 2300 evenings and mornings?

These are unrelated events. Dan 9 deals with the restoration to the Land of Israel, the appearance and sacrifice of Christ then concludes with the destruction of the temple by Titus, which occurred shortly after the Messiah was cut off, outside the 70th week which ended in 30 or 33 AD depending on the math.

Dan 8 was about Greece conquering the Medes and Persians then entering Jerusalem under Antiochus whereby he ordered sacrifices to God. Antiochus promised to enter in peace then once inside the city, he slaughtered 80,000 Jews causing them to flee. Then he set up an abomination by sacrificed a pig in the holy of holies. Exactly 1,150 literal days (2300 evenings and mornings) the Maccabees cleansed the temple in perfect fulfillment. Again, look at the literal translation of this passage:

14 And he saith unto me, Till evening -- morning two thousand and three hundred, then is the holy place declared right.

According to Exodus 29:38-39, the Levites were to offer two sacrifices daily. One lamb was to be sacrificed in the morning and one in the evening. The 2,300 evenings and mornings in v. 14 represent the number of sacrifices that were missed over those 1,150 days.

 

[Phoneman-777]

LOL, awesome. I've got my eyes set on this gorgeous mansion in Newport Beach just waiting for the owners to get "raptured." But of course it ain't gonna happen and neither will the world "blow up" as you imagine. Peter was not discussing a global destruction. He discussed the works of the temple and its elements being destroyed.

I'm thinking of selling "Rapture Bonds" like the old WWII "War Bonds" with a "guaranteed" maturity dividend of 100 times the face value during the "7 years of tribulation" LOLOL

 

[Phoneman-777]

You still believe the RCC and the pope are the beast? LOL. Well at least you got the Rome part correct but you just missed it by 1950 years. I don't know if you noticed or not but the world has been turning away from Catholicism. Maybe because of all the boys that have been molested or perhaps the church is considered too legalistic in its position on abortion and contraception, etc. Regardless, the RCC doesn't have a fraction of the power and influence it had in the 1500s to 1800s. They don't get to decide kings and rulers anymore like they did back then. They don't control the world's monetary system. Their current pope is a left wing radical communist, he isn't fooling anyone.

Gapper, the Catholic church isn't persecuting protestants anymore either. The fears of your SDA early leaders and founders while legitimate back than are no longer applicable today. So either accept that the Beast was the first century Roman Empire with its 7 Caesar heads in an unholy alliance with apostate Jerusalem (the Harlot) or find another candidate for the beast - the UN and George Soros, perhaps.

Well, the prophecy DID say the Beast was going to receive a deadly wound after it ruled for a "time, times, and half a time" which is Biblically synonymous with "3 1/2 years" or "1,260" days...which is, of course, prophetically symbolic for 1,260 literal years. Did not the Papacy commence its reign in 538 A.D. and receive a deadly wound from the sword of France 1,260 years later in 1798?

Right now, we're in the "healing" of the wound stage, and the opposite is true....the Papacy is gaining popularity like never before. The communist fake news in American is enamored with this far left lunatic sitting in the Vatican. Pedophilia, as we have seen, is no reason to stigmatize anyone today; it's rapidly becoming a badge of honor among the elites of the world. The Ecumenical movement is exploding in all directions. "Catholics Come Home" campaigns are everywhere...and I'll let you in on a little secret: The Papacy controls everything through its global network of Luciferian secret societies to which the most influential leaders in global politics, economics, and religions belong.

 

[Absolutely]

Well, the prophecy DID say the Beast was going to receive a deadly wound after it ruled for a "time, times, and half a time" which is Biblically synonymous with "3 1/2 years" or "1,260" days...which is, of course, prophetically symbolic for 1,260 literal years. Did not the Papacy commence its reign in 538 A.D. and receive a deadly wound from the sword of France 1,260 years later in 1798?

Right now, we're in the "healing" of the wound stage, and the opposite is true....the Papacy is gaining popularity like never before. The communist fake news in American is enamored with this far left lunatic sitting in the Vatican. Pedophilia, as we have seen, is no reason to stigmatize anyone today; it's rapidly becoming a badge of honor among the elites of the world. The Ecumenical movement is exploding in all directions. "Catholics Come Home" campaigns are everywhere...and I'll let you in on a little secret: The Papacy controls everything through its global network of Luciferian secret societies to which the most influential leaders in global politics, economics, and religions belong.

"...but pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world and stand before the son of God "

I do that regularly.
The inference is that....no pray,no escape.

Hmmm...that dynamic in no way would apply to postrib rapturists.

 

[Absolutely]

I'm thinking of selling "Rapture Bonds" like the old WWII "War Bonds" with a "guaranteed" maturity dividend of 100 times the face value during the "7 years of tribulation" LOLOL

Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you...I my fathers kingdom."

And he went.

"I will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until I do it anew with you in my fathers kingdom"

Hmmm...in no way do postribs belive that

 

[Absolutely]

Well said. God has over and over preserved His people through tribulation, and the coming Great Tribulation will be no different.

As that time nears, some will die a martyr's death, as in every age before, that their blood might be "seed for the Gospel"...but when Antichrist's "Final Solution" Death Decree (Hitler would have been proud) is pronounced against those who refuse to go along with the iniquitous majority, it is then that the Door of Mercy slams shut on the Hinges of Grace and mankind's probation comes to a close, not another drop of Gospel seed blood will be sewn, and the Great Tribulation will fall upon mankind with unspeakable horror in the form of the 7 Last Plagues, but God's people shall be delivered.

The bible says EXACTLY OPPOSITE when the ac takes power...EXACTLY OPPOSITE.

Rev 7;13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

See that? No protection...all murdered.

Rev 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

See that BEFORE THE PLAGUES...THE AC KILLS THEM.
Victory over the ac through death....no protection

Here are they again:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

See that? No protection. All murdered.

Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

NO PROTECTION...ALL MURDERED. BY AC

You made that up. Postrib rapture teachers got you to follow along.
THEY LITTERALLY MADE UP THAT NOTION THAT YOU GUYS SCURRY FROM CAVE TO CAVE WITH AC BOGEY MAN RUNNING AFTER YOU.
Completely false and now shot down.

 

[Absolutely]

And I am so thankful that God has prophecy teachers like myself who understand that Dispensationalism is a false idea invented by J. N. Darby after he was seduced by Jesuit Futurism like so many today, and that "Israel" is symbolic for what Paul calls "Abraham's Seed" -- the Church.

Jesuit Futurists stubbornly strive to put a difference between Jew and Gentile when the Bible says there is none.

Show me any of your phantom Jesuits that use my verses.

Show me their doctrine where the ac kills ALL BELIEVERS during the gt.

Show me where they invoke rev 14 that proves Jesus raptures ripe fruit sitting on a cloud DURING THE GT.

Show me where any of them invoke Jesus prophecy in the last supper dialogue.

Show me.

 

[Absolutely]

"our verses"

The Bible verses don't belong to pre-trib theorists.
Pre-trib only uses about four verses taken out of context and mutilated.

It completely ignores the instructions of Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter & John to ENDURE.
The church is advised to prepare for endurance during the GT not to prepare for early escape from it.
We are NEVER told to expect an early departure before the return of The Lord in glory.

The only place a post tribulation return of Jesus is impossible is in a pre-tribulation story.
It's not impossible in the Biblical narrative.
I can't accept accept the pre-trib story superimposed over the Biblical picture.

Take a look at my post where I looked up the verses showing the ac kills all believers.

The core of postrib rapture doctrine has the false assumption God protects the saints during the gt.

Nowhere are they protected.
Why?
Because the time of the gentiles is finished.

It goes to purpose.
God has a main harvest....the rapture.
If you remove a pretrib rapture then Jesus was mistaken in about 6 or more places.

Postrib is indeed impossible

I showed where millions/billions are murdered and in heaven.
Killed.

But postrib rapturists somehow randomly believe they are all protected.

Huh? The bible says the opposite.

Then in mat 24 Jesus frames his return PREFLOOD/pre sodom judgement ....and in that dynamic the one taken followed by watch and be ready.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That interpretation violates the prophetic timeline, which is easily and irrefutably shown from Scripture:

1. Jesus ascended to the Heavenly Sanctuary
2. Daniel said "unto 2,300 Days, then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed"

The 2,300 days evenings and mornings, is referring to when Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple by slaughtering a pig on the
altar. The temple was resanctified after the Maccabean revolt, which is what Hanukah is commemorating. It is not referring to the
same event as Daniel 9:27 where in the future, the false prophet will have that image of the first beast/antichrist set up in the holy
place within the temple. From the time that it is set up, which will be in the middle of the seven years, there will be 1260 days
until the Lord returns.

Two different events are in view in here in Daniel 8:14 and Dan.9:27. Both were future to Daniel, Dan.8:14 with the event of Antiochus desecrating the temple around 168 BC. And the event of Dan.9:27 where the abomination that causes the desolation in the holy place, is yet future, when that antichrist will be in power.

1. The 70 Weeks makes sense only as symbolic time, from Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. "commandment" to "Messiah"
2. The 70 Weeks were cut off from the 2,300 Days making the starting date for both is 457 B.C.
3. The OT "cleansing of the Sanctuary" saw the high priest move from Holy Place to the Most Holy Place.
4. Counting 2,300 symbolic days - literal years - from 457 B.C. brings the timeline down to 1844 A.D.
5. Only one literal Sanctuary stood at that time with our One and only great High Priest to cleanse it
6. The OT pattern has Jesus moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844 to cleanse it

As long as you continue to mix the prophesies above, you will continue to be in error. As I said, the 2,300 days has to do with the event of Antiochus.

7 Sevens (49 years) = To restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 Sevens (434 years) = Adding 62 sevens to the 7 sevens, bring us to the end of 69 sevens at which time the Anointed One was cut off, which was Christ crucified. At the end of the 69 seven year periods, God paused that last seven years and the Lord began to build His church which is still in the process of being built. Once the church is completed, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere and first call up those who died in Him. Immediately after that, those believers who are still alive will be caught up, where the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house. Once the church has been gathered, God will then pick up right where He left off with Israel in completion of that last seven years, which is also the time when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Therefore, when Jesus is depicted in the Holy Place, those prophecies begin to unfold BEFORE 1844, and conversely, when in the Most Holy Place, unfold AFTER 1844.

Oh you butcherers of the word of God! The holy place is the room in the temple just outside the holy of holies. It is not Jesus who will be sitting in the holy place, but that idolatrous image of the beast, which is what causes the desolation. This is what Jesus was talking about in Matt.24:15, when He said:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Daniel 12 makes it clear that the abomination is not a person, but an object, as revealed below:

"And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days."

"And the abomination of desolation set up" grammatically cannot be referring to a person, but an idolatrous object that is gong to be set up. And I believe that object is synonymous with the image of Revelation 13, which the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the beast.

The Seven Churches, Seals, and Trumpets began unfolding in John's day and continue down to our day, with the Church living in the Laodicean Age, the opening of the 6th Seal, and the sounding of the 6th Trumpet.

The letters to the seven churches are not only representing the characteristics of the seven churches of that time, but represents the "what is now" which represents the entire church period. That said, we are currently still living in the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write in Rev.1:19. Once the church has been gathered that will end the "what is now" time frame, with the "what must take place later" beginning.

The first seal rider on the white horse, is symbolically representing the emergence of that future antichrist, who will be a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Revelation 19:11 who is the Lord.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments combined make up the wrath of God, which we as believers are not appointed to suffer. Since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be gathered to the Lord prior to the first seal being opened and therefore we could not have already gone through the seals and the trumpets. You have a very diluted idea of God's coming wrath, not understanding the severity of it.

Further more, the seven types of churches are not representing historical time periods. For the characteristics of all seven churches have existed throughout the entire church age to this present day. To be clear, the Ephesian church which left their first love, can be found existing today. At the same time, the characteristics of the rest of the other churches can be found existing world-wide at this present time.

 

[Absolutely]

Where are these verses which say the Antichrist kills the innumerable number that stands before God and kills everyone that doesn't get the Mark? Please cite and highlight where it specifically says the Antichrist does all this killing.

Are you saying they got there alive?

 

[Absolutely]

"our verses"

The Bible verses don't belong to pre-trib theorists.
Pre-trib only uses about four verses taken out of context and mutilated.

It completely ignores the instructions of Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter & John to ENDURE.
The church is advised to prepare for endurance during the GT not to prepare for early escape from it.
We are NEVER told to expect an early departure before the return of The Lord in glory.

The only place a post tribulation return of Jesus is impossible is in a pre-tribulation story.
It's not impossible in the Biblical narrative.
I can't accept accept the pre-trib story superimposed over the Biblical picture.

"Our verses"....meaning the ones only pretribs invoke.

Not saying I purchased them or postribs cant access them.

Take one of "my verses" and show me anything wrong with the way I unpack it.

...or any verse in general you think is misrepresentative of a pretrib rapture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I can recognize the many inconsistencies of Jesuit Futurism, such as you guys insisting Jesus comes twice as a thief.

The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events, with different purposes. When He comes for the church, He descends to atmosphere and calls up the dead. After that, we who still here and still alive will be caught up with them. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take His bride back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. Our gathering must take place in order to remove us from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

The other event is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and His called, chosen and faithful followers will be with Him, which will be the church/bride who will have previously been resurrected and caught up.

I assure you, if you want to get into a discussion about whether Antiochus the Chump fits the description of the Little Horn of Daniel 8, I am more than happy to oblige

Well, at least you are consistent in that you are batting a 100% with wrong interpretations! You are right, I will not get into a discussion about Antiochus being the little horn of Daniel, because he isn't. The imposing horn mentioned in Dan.7, is that future antichrist/beast. Regarding him, it states that "He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High for time, times and half a time, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which is also referred to in Rev.13:5-7, when the beast, that horn, is given authority to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints for 42 months, which is also referring to that last 3 1/2 years.

You need unlearn what you have learned from this false teaching, which I have heard and contended against many other times. This is a known false teaching. And by these teachings, you are continuing to spread the lies.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wait, you'll reject the "remarkable unanimity" with which all the ECFs who commented spoke on the identity of the Restrainer - THE PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE - unanimity in their future expectation of the rise of an Antichrist which would be destroyed by the "brightness" of the coming of Christ which destroys the Jesuit Preterist argument that all prophecy was fulfilled before the close of the 1st century...but you'll cling to one singular, obscure, and ambiguous ("disciple" can refer to OT figures, as in Isaiah 8:16: "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.") reference? Can you see the glaring inconsistency?

Please show us which ECFs wrote that Christ already came. Oh, you mean you can't find a single line in all their writings concerning what would have been the fulfillment of the greatest prophecy, the "blessed hope", the Second Coming of Jesus?

Correction! The blessed hope is the appearing of the Lord to gather His church to take us back to the Father's house.

The second coming, is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Not recognizing the difference between these two is why you err.

 

[PlainWord]

I'm thinking of selling "Rapture Bonds" like the old WWII "War Bonds" with a "guaranteed" maturity dividend of 100 times the face value during the "7 years of tribulation" LOLOL

Rapture bonds, LOVE IT!! There has to be a way to cash in on their foolishness and deception.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Not a fan of the Jesuits and never heard any of their writings so any defense of their views is coincidental.

The Preterist view was unheard of until 16th century Jesuit Alcazar presented as a diversion tactic against the Reformation. No ECFs said Jesus came back; to the contrary, they wrote about future fulfillment of things like the fall of the Restrainer and rise of Antichrist.

Bottom line, Miller got it wrong. Since his views are wrong, and his followers formed the SDA church taking his false views into your church, this means your views are wrong too.

That is total subjectivity and completely non-sequitur! Those who went on to form the SDA church learned from their misinterpretation of prophecy, just as the three Gospel writers righted their wrongs.

No, Daniel referred to the sanctuary of the temple in the 160s BC in Dan 8. We don't need to speculate on this as we are told in the chapter the identity of the Ram and Goat. 20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. Even the most casual observer of history can recognize this first king of Greece as Alexander the Great.

OK, this is so easily shot down..Daniel mentions the 2,300 Days only after the Ram and He Goat have passed off the stage of history - it is the "Little Horn" who attacks horizontally (Pagan Rome) and then finally tramples the Heavenly Sanctuary underfoot by attacking vertically (PAPAL ROME) and taking to itself Christ's Ministry of Intercession, thus making necessary the "cleansing of the Sanctuary" at the end of the 2,300 years.

As I said, I very much admire the reformers and never said they claimed to be prophets. Their mistake was taking the persecution they were getting from the RCC which was brutal and mistaking it for the beast, etc. I am not aware of anything that Matthew, Mark and John got wrong. What are you talking about? I accept everything they wrote as the inspired Word of God. If you are talking about when they were still with Christ and still learning, that's fine.

What mistake? They were spot on accurate in their association of the Papacy with Antichrist. What is a mistake is ignoring where Daniel says a beast is a "kingdom" , not a man, and certainly not Nero.

Of course Antiochus was the Little Horn of Dan 8, what are you kidding? Try to shred this and I'll eat your lunch while I make you watch, LOL.

Antiochus the Chump was not the "Little Horn" because he:
1. HE IS NOT A "HORN": A "horn" is clearly and undeniably a "kingdom" in prophecy, not a man.
2. WAS NOT "EXCEEDING GREAT":

• he was mocked and disrespected by his contemporaries as "Epimanes" ("crazy man")
• he was little more than mediocre on the battlefield (which is why he took his frustrations out of the Jews)
• he and his army were chased out of Egypt by a handful of Roman emissaries and their scant Imperial guard
• he paled in comparison to the border expansions of Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome
• sacrificing a pig on the alter is nothing...Nebuchadnezzer and Titus slaughtered HUMANS in the temple, so which abomination is worse?

3. HE AROSE TOO EARLY: the Little Horn was to arise during the"latter times" of the Seleucid Empire, not midway
4. NO 2,300 DAYS SUSPENSION: he suspended temple services well short of the required 2,300 days
5. THE LITTLE HORN WAS TO COME FORTH FROM THE FOUR WINDS, NOT HORNS: He is misconceived to have arisen out of the Seleucid "horn" due to the erroneous interpretation that "out of one of them came forth a Little Horn" means "out of one of the horns", because rules regarding noun/pronoun gender agreement as well as noun/pronoun antecedents demand that the "them" refer to "winds", not "horns," which means the Little Horn arose from one of the "four winds" or "four directions of the compass" which would be "West" from where Rome lies and which continues the "East-to-West" movement of prophecy, beginning at Babylon. Bon appetit

The sanctuary was cleansed exactly 1,150 days after the swine was sacrificed matching exactly the 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices which were taken away. Read the 1st and 2nd Book of the Maccabees, they recognized they were fulfilling Daniel 8.

Antiochus had nothing to do with the 2,300 Days because it's impossible for him to be the "exceeding great" Little Horn, per the above reasons. Also, 2,300 "evenings and mornings" = 2,300 "days" according to the reckoning of Genesis 1, right or wrong? God didn't use convoluted Common Core math in Genesis 1, neither does He in Daniel 8.

Miller made a mistake in hermenuetics? I'll say he did. Antiochus as the Little Horn of Dan 8 is perhaps the most obvious and perfectly fulfilled of any OT prophesy.

Hogwash, my brother from another mother As stated earlier, Antiochus the Chump was not a kingdom, arose too early, was not "exceeding great" above his predecessors, and didn't from the "four winds" which is outside of the four horns - he arose in the midst of the Seleucid horn, not at the "latter time" of it.

You and your historicist buddies are going to have another "great disappointment." How long before you expect to see the world blow up? It's been 2,000 years. Do you need another 2,000? 10,000? 100,000 or a million years? At what point would you be wrong? You are just as mistaken as the futurists who turn "last days" into 2,000 years and counting. They set more dates than you guys but both of your views are laughing stocks to we preterists.

When Jesus comes back as a thief to rapture the saints as the world is simultaneously turning inside out like my friends and I used to do when we drank too much MD 20/20 or Nighttrain, the only disappointed ones will be those who forgot to purchase Consuming Fire insurance.

I drive a diesel so I wouldn't know about that.

Remember the good old days when diesel cost like HALF the price of gas? Until the oil companies figured out they could jack up the price and people would still pay it.

Again, I know enough about your views to reject them. Your views make Christ a liar or at least uninformed. That's all I need to know. You views or only slightly better than the gapper futurists who never opened a history book and think everything applies to them so they can fly away and escape death. What makes them so special?

They're special because they're Biblically consistent. For instance, the 70 Weeks are "cut off" from the 2,300 Days and pertain to the Jews and Jerusalem, which means both have to start at the same time: 457 B.C., and the only way the 70 Weeks makes sense is to apply the "day/year" principle to make them 70 Weeks of years, not days, from 457 B.C. to when Jesus was baptized 483 years later, with the final 7 years commencing as He walked up out of the Jordan. So, how can you demand the 2,300 Days remain days, while the 70 Weeks - 490 days - are symbolic for 490 years?

Again, I am not familiar with Jesuit teachings. I developed my eschatology from in depth study of the Word and history. I used to be a futurists for 50+ years but was always bothered by all the verses that suggest a first century, same generation return. Christ clearly taught it and the disciples certainly expected it. Reading Josephus was like getting the answers to the Revelation test.

I would disagree...I find you well acquainted with Jesuit Preterist doctrine of 16th century Jesuit priest Luiz Alcazar

 

[Phoneman-777]

Correction! The blessed hope is the appearing of the Lord to gather His church to take us back to the Father's house.

The second coming, is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Not recognizing the difference between these two is why you err.

Yes, when Jesus appears visibly, gloriously, experientially, and cacophonically in the clouds as the Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet all sound at His Second Coming, that is when the "rapture" of the saints happens, according to 1 Thess. 4:14-18, right or wrong?