My take on water baptism...

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Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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No word for "water" yet still no Holy Spirit is also there. That's a tie! hence, a tie breakdown is needed. Who do you think administered when Paul says "I baptize" Paul or the Holy Spirit? Let's break this tie Peterlag.
The thing is there are plenty of things not directly said in scripture such as ( and I am very hesitent to say this word because I don't want to cause another thread about it) the rapture, the word rapture is a man made word for an event spoken of in scripture, the trinit is a common belief but the word itse;f is not found as far as I know.

Biblical truth is not always going to be right in your face sometimes you have to let the spirit bring you deeper, but then again that is what is so great about the bible what good is it to find gold without a little digging?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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We do the Lord's supper in remembrance to him as he said. He never said to get wet for him. Some guy named Philip got wet but Christ never suggested it for the Christian.
what % of people ya figure thought about Him, remembered Him, when they were immersed in H2O, thereby declaring themselves a believer?
like maybe what they were doing was the answer of a good conscious towards Him?


you think, 0% ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Water baptism is not taught in any of the Epistles written by Paul or any other Apostle. All that can be known for the Church of God concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ is in those Epistles. And water is not in there.
you cannot prove this statement; it is your private interpretation.

can you give an answer to what water symbolizes in scripture, and why we're having a discussion about being immersed in water and raised again, and how it relates to Christ? why John baptized, why Paul baptized, why Peter baptized, why Christ was baptized, why Jesus spoke of the cup He had to drink and the baptism with which He must be baptized?

is H2O immersion utterly meaningless in the scripture or if not, what does it mean?
all scripture testifies of Christ; this is how we know it is scripture or not.


you say H2O immersion is worthless and only people outside of the practices handed down by the apostles practice it or subject themselves to it.
i say: H2O immersion exists in scripture. i ask: how does H2O immersion testify of Christ?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
2,547
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what % of people ya figure thought about Him, remembered Him, when they were immersed in H2O, thereby declaring themselves a believer?
like maybe what they were doing was the answer of a good conscious towards Him?


you think, 0% ?
I literally posted the verse to peterlag specifically saying it was about good conscious to God
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
2,547
113
you cannot prove this statement; it is your private interpretation.

can you give an answer to what water symbolizes in scripture, and why we're having a discussion about being immersed in water and raised again, and how it relates to Christ? why John baptized, why Paul baptized, why Peter baptized, why Christ was baptized, why Jesus spoke of the cup He had to drink and the baptism with which He must be baptized?

is H2O immersion utterly meaningless in the scripture or if not, what does it mean?
all scripture testifies of Christ; this is how we know it is scripture or not.


you say H2O immersion is worthless and only people outside of the practices handed down by the apostles practice it or take subject themselves to it.
i say: H2O immersion exists in scripture. i ask: how does H2O immersion testify of Christ?
This is the highest honor I can give you
Absolutely brilliant response
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Well you may be talking about v 6, but I am talking about vv 8-18
So i don't know why you are talking about v 6 in response to my pointing you to vv 8-18 other than perhaps you do not comprehend vv 8-18 and can't understand why it is the gospel. So you bring up some nearby verse instead for which you have a few prepared comments?

Look at vv 8-18.
See if you can find Salvation in it?
That passage to me is the unconditional covenant that was given to Abraham. He was asleep when it was cut between God the father and God the son. Abraham is said to be the sleeping partner.

Likewise the covenant that we are saved now is also unconditional, it was between God the father and God the sin

We understand that now, but we have the benefit of time and wisdom

If you want to claim that Abraham must have also known all these, Then I would disagree. It’s not in the scripture
 
Jan 12, 2019
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You do , I hope understand that it was no yet available to get born again in the period of the Gospels? Water baptist is all they had.
Interestingly, if you compare Paul letters to John, Paul never mentioned the necessity of being born again, nor has he ever used that term

But John love using it in both his gospel account as well as in 1 John
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,625
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That passage to me is the unconditional covenant that was given to Abraham. He was asleep when it was cut between God the father and God the son. Abraham is said to be the sleeping partner.

Likewise the covenant that we are saved now is also unconditional, it was between God the father and God the sin

We understand that now, but we have the benefit of time and wisdom

If you want to claim that Abraham must have also known all these, Then I would disagree. It’s not in the scripture
it doesn't matter how much Abraham knew. That's what your verse 6 says.
Unless you think in heaven you will be preached an entirely different gospel, being that presently you see through a glass darkly, yourself?

nevertheless Abraham surely knew that he didn't pass through the parts but that God did - and that God, the one, singular God, appeared in two forms simultaneously: an open and a hidden flame, sending smoke. By His Abraham knew he had eternal life - that he would "inherit" the land.

That, sir, no matter your blindness or anyone else's, is not a different gospel, but the very same: only God saves, and He does not change.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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it doesn't matter how much Abraham knew. That's what your verse 6 says.
Unless you think in heaven you will be preached an entirely different gospel, being that presently you see through a glass darkly, yourself?

nevertheless Abraham surely knew that he didn't pass through the parts but that God did - and that God, the one, singular God, appeared in two forms simultaneously: an open and a hidden flame, sending smoke. By His Abraham knew he had eternal life - that he would "inherit" the land.

That, sir, no matter your blindness or anyone else's, is not a different gospel, but the very same: only God saves, and He does not change.
Verse 6 is a follow up to verse 5.

Why not interpret literally And simply, instead of insisting it’s about the cross?

you claimed that Abraham knew at chapter 15 that he have eternal life, that is not stated in the scripture. You are reading it in

All we can say is that Abraham believed and knew that God will give him numerous descendants
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Luke 24:44-47

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:8-9
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

This seems to be in contradictory to what Luke did said in the Acts account versus his own writing at the gospel or one is in error either the one you are holding as the gospel preaching is to “begin from Jerusalem” or as Christ said in the book of Acts saying “both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” If that is the case, yours indicates a focal point or starting of Gospel preaching and baptism of water and really contradicted what he later says as in Acts 1 and that is you are presenting a contradiction. Now my position is that Luke’s writing in the gospel books and in the Acts is not in contradictory. Simply, Luke used ‘beginning at Jerusalem” to indicate occurrence in, on or near, ‘at’ is used to talk about where something happens in other words the point of beginning to preach the gospel or good news that Jesus saves will not begin from Jerusalem, because Christ already did, Christ claimed in his early ministry of the gospel that he saves by putting their trust on him, the same message after his resurrection and ascension and they were only to continue, though this has a fresh meaning since it already fulfilled what was written about his death, burial and resurrection which is then now the basis of the gospel propagation around the world. The word “both’ qualifies that the gospel preaching and water baptism to be propagated alike or equally at any place without restriction even to the uttermost part of the earth or where ever they are. This is not the question of where to start but rather when to start which is after the Holy Ghost empowers them or until they “be endued from the power on high” where they can carry the GC “both in Jerusalem, and in Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth”
You are interpreting as such because you are not familiar with the OT prophetic timetable.

Jews at the time grew up with the OT, and they are familiar with the promise that God will redeem Israel first, before all the gentile nations can be saved.

Zechariah 8 spelt it out clearly, but there are other passages in the OT that talks about this.

When you understand it, Acts 8:1 makes perfect sense

And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

The 12 understood and followed the order given in the Luke version of the GC precisely. The other gentiles nations cannot be reached until Israel as a nation accept their Messiah.

Peter's comments to Cornelius about it being against the Law for him to be in the latter's house, also testify to this.

So my point again is, no one follows the GC now. They just pick and choose what they like to follow, and ignore the rest. The most popular one is of course, insisting that water baptism is a requirement.

And I have not even started talking about snake handling and John 20:23 yet
 
Aug 1, 2020
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Yes, I understand that during the "Gospels," they had water baptism AND the Messiah with them on the Earth and He had not yet been crucified, buried or resurrected yet.

However, AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, He did breath on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit (which SEALED them).....

John 20:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.


Right before Jesus left Earth, Jesus told them to tarry for the Promise of the Father which is BAPTISM with the Holy Spirit. The BAPTISM with the Holy Spirit happened at Pentecost.

Jesus had also told His disciples to.......

Matthew 28:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Water Baptism does NOT save but, it is a sign of the New Covenant IN CHRIST much like circumcision. Circumcision did not save but, it was very important.

(NOTE: When God makes a promise and wants to bind Himself to fulfilling it, He likes to give the promise or covenant a sign - like the rainbow that He gave when He promised to not flood the entire Earth anymore.)

The Holy Spirit Baptism is the empowering of the Believer to witness of Jesus Christ in the Earth and to have fellowship with God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and other Believers.

The power of the Holy Spirit is always with us but, if we resist, quench, grieve, or neglect the Holy Spirit, we become powerless - like a cellphone that only has 2%. We need to learn to stay FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
Can't argue that, thank you.
Water baptism is a nice gesture and nothing is wrong with it, but it is no more necessary than physical circumcision.
Baptism in holy spirit is the real baptism which empowers the believer with the nine manifestations described in 1Crininthians 12-14.
Baptism in holy spirit is the new birth where God plants seed in the person and that person becomes a child of God forever.
People can be baptized in holy spirit and never manifest because of wrong teaching. I think this can happen in water baptism, a person becomes a child of God but is slow to grow. Kind of like being slow or stunted until they can be nurtured with proper teaching or when the Lord returns. whichever comes first.
 
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Interestingly, if you compare Paul letters to John, Paul never mentioned the necessity of being born again, nor has he ever used that term

But John love using it in both his gospel account as well as in 1 John
Yes, I agree, but I consider all the scriptures "God breathed" just different writers.
 
Aug 1, 2020
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Water baptism is not taught in any of the Epistles written by Paul or any other Apostle. All that can be known for the Church of God concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ is in those Epistles. And water is not in there.
Agreed.
 
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Guest
So how did they baptize, or how do y'all think baptism should be done today? In Jesus's Name, and then what?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Yes, I agree, but I consider all the scriptures "God breathed" just different writers.
You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets, and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.

If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.

That is why Paul never mentioned the necessity of being born again to us gentiles. That concept is irrelevant to us.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,741
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Water baptism is a nice gesture and nothing is wrong with it, but it is no more necessary than physical circumcision.
Baptism in holy spirit is the real baptism which empowers the believer with the nine manifestations described in 1Crininthians 12-14.
Baptism in holy spirit is the new birth where God plants seed in the person and that person becomes a child of God forever.
People can be baptized in holy spirit and never manifest because of wrong teaching. I think this can happen in water baptism, a person becomes a child of God but is slow to grow. Kind of like being slow or stunted until they can be nurtured with proper teaching or when the Lord returns. whichever comes first.
With the house of Cornelius - they received the Holy Spirit baptism and Peter then water baptized them also....

So, it’s obvious that Jesus had instructed BOTH because Peter and Phillip (water baptized Ethiopian eunuch) were water baptizing believers.

Water Baptism is more than just a nice gesture. I believe it is a sign of the New Covenant IN CHRIST.


Jesus said to do it...

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 28:19&version=KJV

Jesus is the Incorruptible Seed in us that the Holy Spirit waters and feeds in us.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:23&version=KJV
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Yes, I understand that during the "Gospels," they had water baptism AND the Messiah with them on the Earth and He had not yet been crucified, buried or resurrected yet.

However, AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, He did breath on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit (which SEALED them).....

John 20:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.


Right before Jesus left Earth, Jesus told them to tarry for the Promise of the Father which is BAPTISM with the Holy Spirit. The BAPTISM with the Holy Spirit happened at Pentecost.

Jesus had also told His disciples to.......

Matthew 28:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Water Baptism does NOT save but, it is a sign of the New Covenant IN CHRIST much like circumcision. Circumcision did not save but, it was very important.

(NOTE: When God makes a promise and wants to bind Himself to fulfilling it, He likes to give the promise or covenant a sign - like the rainbow that He gave when He promised to not flood the entire Earth anymore.)

The Holy Spirit Baptism is the empowering of the Believer to witness of Jesus Christ in the Earth and to have fellowship with God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and other Believers.

The power of the Holy Spirit is always with us but, if we resist, quench, grieve, or neglect the Holy Spirit, we become powerless - like a cellphone that only has 2%. We need to learn to stay FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
Baptizing them in the name (authority) and not water (H20) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Water has no power other than getting a person wet. It evaporates

Water baptism when a person g has a desire to be a priest. It has its foundation in the Old testament like all ceremonial laws as shadow they have "no power". No sign gifts.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,741
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Baptizing them in the name (authority) and not water (H20) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Water has no power other than getting a person wet. It evaporates

Water baptism when a person g has a desire to be a priest. It has its foundation in the Old testament like all ceremonial laws as shadow they have "no power". No sign gifts.
Water Baptism is to be done but, NOT for salvation- Water Baptism is a sign that God has made a promise He will NOT ever brake.

If you feel no need for water baptism then, maybe there is no promise between you and God, even if we think there is.

ONLY God truly knows who belongs to Him and those that are in covenant with Him. He knows the wheat from the tares.

God needs no sign - the sign of covenant is for us - we need it!

I’m pretty sure God knows what He is doing and water baptism has a purpose.
 
Aug 1, 2020
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With the house of Cornelius - they received the Holy Spirit baptism and Peter then water baptized them also....

So, it’s obvious that Jesus had instructed BOTH because Peter and Phillip (water baptized Ethiopian eunuch) were water baptizing believers.

Water Baptism is more than just a nice gesture. I believe it is a sign of the New Covenant IN CHRIST.

Jesus said to do it...

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 28:19&version=KJV

Jesus is the Incorruptible Seed in us that the Holy Spirit waters and feeds in us.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:23&version=KJV
I respect what you are saying, I agree with some of it, but not all....unfortunately I am preparing to move out of state and don't have the time right now to go into detail...I will pop in for a quick read now and then...
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,741
3,561
113
I respect what you are saying, I agree with some of it, but not all....unfortunately I am preparing to move out of state and don't have the time right now to go into detail...I will pop in for a quick read now and then...
I wish you well @Joseph1949. Safe travels.....Godspeed! :love:(y)