Irresistible Grace ?

[Chester]

And observe all things that He commanded...do you heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils...take sacrifices to the priest as he commanded...sell everything you have to follow him...I can go on and on...

I haven't had leprosy yet, so I haven't gone to the priest - LOL!

I haven't raised anyone from the dead yet - unless raising someone spiritually dead counts - then I have done that one too.

The rest of those I have either done myself or seen them modeled and lived out by close friends around me. So, yes, I believe the commands Jesus gives are for all of today.

 

[Chester]

Well, the church wasn’t even an entity until after the resurrection, but of course there are things learned under the Old Testament. Jesus lived under the old testament. The majority of church doctrine is found in Paul’s epistles. He specifically addresses the body of Christ.

For example, The meek shall inherit the earth. That’s not church doctrine.

The meek shall inherit the earth - That's part of my church doctrine - just talked about it in several sermons within the past weeks.

 

[John146]

I would go directly to the third chapter of the Gospel of John, which gives us the words of Christ Himself.

JOHN 3: THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL

THE PHARISEES DID NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

THE ABSOLUTE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH TAUGHT BY CHRIST
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

CHRIST WAS THE DIVINE TEACHER OF ISRAEL AND THE WORLD
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven.

THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

No mention of the death, burial and resurrection for sins...the gospel message. You would have to use your knowledge of Paul's epistles to further explain.

 

[John146]

Why isnt that Church doctrine? NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH will be for all of God's people, not just the jews.... We are Abraham's seed, inherting the promise THROUGH FAITH as your favorite, PAUL says in Galatians 3!

If you can prove to me from the Bible where it says only Pauline epistles are to the Church, im coming a card carrying member of your crew. But I just havent seen a verse. Or if you can show a verse where 1 John isnt for the Church somehow. I mean, if we take the approach of: This is written to a Jew somewhere, so its not to us, to gentile church. Then NO BOOK of the Bible is written to me, not even Paul's epistles. Because im not a corinthian, nor a galatian. so NONE of it applies.

Doctrine can be found in other books, but it must be read with the understanding of Paul's epistles. If it contradicts Paul's epistles then that doctrine is not for the church, the body of Christ.

One key to understanding is always look at the audience. Who is the audience? What doctrine is being taught to that audience?

 

[John146]

I haven't had leprosy yet, so I haven't gone to the priest - LOL!

I haven't raised anyone from the dead yet - unless raising someone spiritually dead counts - then I have done that one too.

The rest of those I have either done myself or seen them modeled and lived out by close friends around me. So, yes, I believe the commands Jesus gives are for all of today.

You know people who can heal the sick? Send them to the nearest cancer center please.

 

[John146]

The meek shall inherit the earth - That's part of my church doctrine - just talked about it in several sermons within the past weeks.

I know a lot of meek people who are lost. They will not inherit anything.

 

[throughfaith]

"Deuteronomy, posted
@throughfaith[/USER], we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,

Acts 13​

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.​

Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary (take note of v11).

Romans 3​

9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;​

10 as it is written,​

THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;​

11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,​

THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;​

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;​

THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,​

THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.​

​

​

​

Congratulations!​

​

And yet we see people understanding,
, people seeking God ,and righteous?

 

[throughfaith]

Ive had this convo with many dispies already. Yuo guys always pull up these examples.

Its not hard to figure out whats applicable today and what isnt. The temple was destroyed, there is no more priesthood, thats inapplicable since ad70.

How about the teachings of Jesus about love your neighbor as yourself? Repeated in Leviticus, gospels AND Paul.
How about the teaching of: love your enemies, honor your elders, deny yourself, love God, love your neighbor, render to ceaser whats to ceaser, do not swear an oath, dont pray like the hypocrites out in the open, care for those in distress ETC ETC.

Now why would we throw away these teachings????????? Or the 1 John teachings or whatever teachings. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say the church should only listen to Paul. Thats RIDICILOUS, and no one in the early church believeed that. These people would be CRYING TEARS OF JOY if they got the sermon on the mount on their hands. Not many people had Scripture back then. No time to pick and choose some weird "rightly divided" package.

//// Its not hard to figure out whats applicable today and what isnt. The temple was destroyed, there is no more priesthood, thats inapplicable since ad70.//// You make the connection here using the right method .
//// How about the teaching of: love your enemies, honor your elders, deny yourself, love God, love your neighbor, render to ceaser whats to ceaser, do not swear an oath, dont pray like the hypocrites out in the open, care for those in distress ETC ETC.//// ? Why does your hermeneutical approach change ? Should you not also use the same method through out ?

 

[garee]

What has happened is the System rests on ' Total inability ' . Once this is established, everything else has to cascade from this downward , logically . The system now dictates . " We are all dead literally because of the Fall ( step 1 ) " How are we saved ? " well ' regeneration has to precede faith , we need ' awakening first . " but not all believe " erm " limited atonement , Jesus only died to save those arbitrary elected to be saved for no reasons given before we were born.
" oh i see , but what if they don't want..." irresistible Grace " i see , and what if they don't make it to the end ? " Perseverance of the Saints " .
And round and round we go ..The system was born . Thanks to Augustine s Gnosticism.

I would think regeneration is the lively working of Christ's faith working in us .By faith as it . Faith is written by that power we are regenerated. Not faith generated by our own minds. We have the mind of Christ. Again the mind of will in respect to the revealed faith of Christ.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No mention of the death, burial and resurrection for sins...the gospel message. You would have to use your knowledge of Paul's epistles to further explain.

Of course. That is a given. And as you know, Peter preached that at Pentecost and Philip preached that to the Ethiopian even before Paul. Also, when Christ spoke of the Brazen Serpent, that would need to be connected to the cross, then the cross to the burial and resurrection. But the fundamental truth of the Gospel is that CHRIST HIMSELF IS OUR SALVATION (John 11:25,16).

 

[Hevosmies]

Doctrine can be found in other books, but it must be read with the understanding of Paul's epistles. If it contradicts Paul's epistles then that doctrine is not for the church, the body of Christ.

One key to understanding is always look at the audience. Who is the audience? What doctrine is being taught to that audience?

Im glad you said that, ALL of New Testament has one audience. FOLKS WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS. Folks who belong to Churches in which most people are saved with a few unsaved devils in the bunch!

 

[Hevosmies]

//// Its not hard to figure out whats applicable today and what isnt. The temple was destroyed, there is no more priesthood, thats inapplicable since ad70.//// You make the connection here using the right method .
//// How about the teaching of: love your enemies, honor your elders, deny yourself, love God, love your neighbor, render to ceaser whats to ceaser, do not swear an oath, dont pray like the hypocrites out in the open, care for those in distress ETC ETC.//// ? Why does your hermeneutical approach change ? Should you not also use the same method through out ?

How did my hermeneutical approach change? Why wouldnt any of that be applicable???

 

[Chester]

I know a lot of meek people who are lost. They will not inherit anything.

No Biblically meek people are lost.

 

[Chester]

You know people who can heal the sick? Send them to the nearest cancer center please.

LOL! I don't know any people who can heal others - but I know that Jesus can! And He does work through people to heal where He is glorified! And I am not sure that He will respond if I or someone else goes to a cancer center to heal others for our own glory and praise and vindication. My Jesus does not operate that way!

 

[fredoheaven]

The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

The context proves the verse is not a good proof text of Calvinism. Consider the audience, this includes
1.The Murmuring Jews who followed Christ. (v.41)
2. The disciples that turned back whom Christ from the very beginning who they were not to beleived, instead they were those only who seek to know the miracle of Jesus. (v.60)
3. Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve who have to betray Jesus.(v.71)

So these are they who were drawn to Christ. It says also that those who believes on Christ not miracles has everlasting life (v. 47). IOW, the drawing includes all but only those who believes Christ are given eternal life.

 

[CS1]

The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

Irresistible Jesus without HIM you have not Grace. Irresistible Holy Spirit without HIM you have no conviction of Sin. Irresistible God the Father without HIS word we would not know the truth. John Calvin gave us none of that. "Doctrine " is not the irresistible one. Jesus is.

 

[Deuteronomy]

I believe that because of the T in TULIP of course we need some verses to suggest ' corpse like deadness ' ( Lazuraus) The whole system ( because of Augustine) hangs on the T , everything has to logically follow.
Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

Hello throughfaith, very sorry about the delay in getting back to you!

First off, as for the "corpse-like deadness" of Lazarus, Lazarus was dead .. "physically". The "T" speaks of being "spiritually" dead, obviously, since systematic theologies (all of them) are rendered moot for those who are "physically" dead (because the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ at that point is over).

Lastly, though the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism are certainly clear enough (e.g. unlimited vs limited atonement, conditional v unconditional election, etc.), you said that they are both wrong "for all the same reasons". So my question is, what are those reasons?

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's some of what the Bible has to say about being spiritually dead. Take particular note of the words in bold.

Ephesians 2​

1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.​

3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,​

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).​

​

 

[throughfaith]

How did my hermeneutical approach change? Why wouldnt any of that be applicable???

Because the same questions apply . Who s the audience , when is it , why , what ect . For every

The context proves the verse is not a good proof text of Calvinism. Consider the audience, this includes
1.The Murmuring Jews who followed Christ. (v.41)
2. The disciples that turned back whom Christ from the very beginning who they were not to beleived, instead they were those only who seek to know the miracle of Jesus. (v.60)
3. Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve who have to betray Jesus.(v.71)

So these are they who were drawn to Christ. It says also that those who believes on Christ not miracles has everlasting life (v. 47). IOW, the drawing includes all but only those who believes Christ are given eternal life.

Great point , thankyou .

 

[Deuteronomy]

I have three children under 5 so I have my hands full at times lol . God bless .

LOL, you and your family would fit right in at my church as we have more children than adults (our senior pastor, for instance, has 9 children, and his is not our largest family)

~Deut

 

[Gregoryp]

tbh I do not know for sure about if one has to always be drawn to him to be saved or not, that is how it was for me I didn't even bother seeking him until I felt the pull inside I honestly was not interested in God.
For others it seems they can be raised in a church home but do all the right things yet never feel that pull something I think does have to make us want to seek him whether that is curiosity the tugging or sometimes near death experiences but this is not limited to anything it seems I have heard of a guy who loved to watch the sunset and it was the light and beauty of the sunset that he was saved.

BBut the thing is the way the word draw is used in this particular context is always around Jesus speaking of raising on the last day him being lifted from earth and dawring the word drawing doesn't always mean an inner tug it seems to me and this may be an unpopular opinion that these verses seem to be speaking more of the event that shall not be named on this forum a lot of words are used implying raising being lifted up or in this case drawn up

For me it started when I was very young, I was walking on my way to primary school, about ten years old, wondering what I would do as a career when I grew up, the first word that came to me was "priest" as soon as I declared it, a feeling like electricity going through me happened. From that moment life changed. far to long of a story to go into here, but suffice to say it still is quite a journey. So was I chosen? Yes of course.