"God loves everyone" - false
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As to the other part,
Can you not comprehend the English language?
You said, "Saying ' immature, spiritual believer would be a contradiction.
When a person first begins their conversion experience, they are considered "babes" in Christ. They possess the Spirit. Therefore to say "immature spiritual believer" means, One who is a believer and possess the ability of spiritual understanding but is yet immature, spiritually speaking vs say Paul, who is spiritually mature. This would be impossible, if they did not possess the Holy Spirit.
You said, "Immature is one thing . ' spiritual does not mean in this context ' someone with the Holy Spirit, inspite of some faulty translations and commentary s"
1Co 2:14 Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
At this point it is crystal clear to me, that you are intentionally, playing games with the Scriptures. This is an utter waste of time. You never except the clear meaning of Scripture, for if you did, you r whole house of cards would come tumbling down.
Can you not comprehend the English language?
You said, "Saying ' immature, spiritual believer would be a contradiction.
When a person first begins their conversion experience, they are considered "babes" in Christ. They possess the Spirit. Therefore to say "immature spiritual believer" means, One who is a believer and possess the ability of spiritual understanding but is yet immature, spiritually speaking vs say Paul, who is spiritually mature. This would be impossible, if they did not possess the Holy Spirit.
You said, "Immature is one thing . ' spiritual does not mean in this context ' someone with the Holy Spirit, inspite of some faulty translations and commentary s"
1Co 2:14 Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
At this point it is crystal clear to me, that you are intentionally, playing games with the Scriptures. This is an utter waste of time. You never except the clear meaning of Scripture, for if you did, you r whole house of cards would come tumbling down.
This was an answer put on another thread but since it has bearing on the question does God love everyone? Posted it here also.
The real problem here is that each one of these verses need a lot of time to explain but here is a running commentary in brief.
First, we have to put our minds into the eternal gear. We have to see God before He created anything. His complete and total architectural plan. His Decreeing all things that will take place, either by His direct power are His permissive will.
Paul had shown in the earlier verses that God does as He pleases with His creation. Not all of Israel was Israel, (Traditional view of the Jews was, that having Abraham as their father, was all they needed.), thus he is establishing further God's election in His purpose. In choosing Jacob over Esau, God breaks with man's traditions (In this case, that all things are inherited by the elder brother), and proves God is not bound by traditions of men.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
This verses is self explanatory. Paul uses an account that readers are familiar with. (Gen. 25)
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;
The primary push of this verse, is that neither of the two children, in and of themselves deserved anything from God. They were both under the Adamic Curse, wherein, when Adam fell, we all fell in him. Not just because of him but we were all in him when he fell, legally speaking. God's purpose in election was to bestow greatness on Jacob and not Esau. Therefore, since this was being done by God's eternal purpose, it could not be seen as if it were by works. It had nothing to do with their might are the will of either. It also, had nothing to do with them trying to please God. This understood, magnifies the last part of the verse, (that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
God told her that the traditional view of man's inheritance was going to be turned upside down. (Gen.25:23)
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The reason for this, goes straight to the mind of God. God had made this determination from eternity before anything had been created. It was written by Malachi: Mal 1:2-3 ... I have loved you, saith Jehovah. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith Jehovah: yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness. The natural man could not see how this was a demonstration of God's love. This verse also, clearly begins to setup an understanding that God's love is directed towards whom He pleases. In some kind of way, this love extends to all but not in the same way. This other kind of way, does not represent God's electing purpose. Rather, God seems to allow those he hates to be used for examples. Perhaps to increases the understanding of sin, for the Elect. ( This last thought is not a, Thus saith the Lord, just a thought) Ultimately though, it is to fulfill a purpose that only God truly understands. After all, the nonelect enjoy the blessings being bestowed on the elect, for now. (Mat.5:45)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Paul anticipates the objection of the reader.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Paul explains there is no injustice in God having mercy and compassion on who he wills. After all, none of mankind, deserves any mercy or compassion. In this same way, God is not unrighteous are unjust to show mercy on whom He chooses. Therefore, if God elects some to His mercy and gives them grace but not others, there is no injustice. All deserved condemnation. Mercy was shown to the elect but there still had to be a payment for their crimes (sin), so Jesus Christ stood in the place of the Elect. The others were passed by. God is not condemning them by passing by, they are already condemned because of the fall. Nothing in His Holy justice demands He save anyone but thankfully, He decided to save a remnant for His own purposes.
16 So then it is not of him through his own will, nor of him that is striving, but of God that is showing mercy.
This single statement, here in this verse, says it all. You can't achieve God's mercy or compassion by your own will are by striving to get it. God is the only one who can give it. Without it, there is no salvation. Your hope is as desolate as Esau's was.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Same purpose, herein spoken of, is to show God's purpose over man's will. God raised up Pharaoh, only for the purpose of showing His power. Pharaoh's sole purpose in life, was to be ruler while God brought forth the plagues. Thus Pharaoh is used as an example. (This goes back to what I said in verse 13.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he is hardening.
God does both, show mercy to whom He will and hardens who He wills. There is both a God hardening and a self hardening. (see verses: Mark 6:52, 8:17; John 12:40; Acts 19:9; Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor.3:44) Christ was hidden from the natural mind, we are told in Scripture and revealed to the elect. (see verses such as, Mat.13:34,35; 16:17; John 1:5)
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Once again, Paul anticipates the readers objections. No one can resist God's determinate will.
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that is making accusations against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Paul now turns with all his force and defends God's Sovereignty. A Simple but unbelievably strong statement. Can the creation, question it's creator. That's like a lab rat, saying to the scientist, "What are you doing to me?" or "Why did you build this maze in this way?" God's Sovereign choice in all things and pertaining to all things is easy to understand and rejoice in, as long as, one approaches from the right direction. In other words, It is not about US and what we want, it is about GOD and what He has determined for us.
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
In other words, God took from the same "lump" (From humanity), and made some to honor (the Elect), and some to dishonor ( the Nonelect ). Or keeping closer to the text, some for "mercy and compassion" and some for unforgivness and hardening.
I also, include the following part of this discussion in Romans:
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
This again, places the emphasis on those whom God made for the purpose of destruction. The world does not like this language and has from the beginning of God revealing himself, tried to usurp this clearly stated truth. This verse takes us back to verses 16 &17, as further explanation.
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he beforehand prepared unto glory,
Here, Paul states that these things are again for an example. Example to whom? The ones made for mercy, which were decreed from eternity. ( "which he beforehand prepared unto glory")
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
Some have tried, to make these passages, apply only to the Jews. But this is clearly a false interpretation. We know this because Paul uses the pronoun "us" and includes the Gentiles or if you prefer "nations".
I hope, that this may help you. The rest is up to the Lord.
The real problem here is that each one of these verses need a lot of time to explain but here is a running commentary in brief.
First, we have to put our minds into the eternal gear. We have to see God before He created anything. His complete and total architectural plan. His Decreeing all things that will take place, either by His direct power are His permissive will.
Paul had shown in the earlier verses that God does as He pleases with His creation. Not all of Israel was Israel, (Traditional view of the Jews was, that having Abraham as their father, was all they needed.), thus he is establishing further God's election in His purpose. In choosing Jacob over Esau, God breaks with man's traditions (In this case, that all things are inherited by the elder brother), and proves God is not bound by traditions of men.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
This verses is self explanatory. Paul uses an account that readers are familiar with. (Gen. 25)
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;
The primary push of this verse, is that neither of the two children, in and of themselves deserved anything from God. They were both under the Adamic Curse, wherein, when Adam fell, we all fell in him. Not just because of him but we were all in him when he fell, legally speaking. God's purpose in election was to bestow greatness on Jacob and not Esau. Therefore, since this was being done by God's eternal purpose, it could not be seen as if it were by works. It had nothing to do with their might are the will of either. It also, had nothing to do with them trying to please God. This understood, magnifies the last part of the verse, (that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
God told her that the traditional view of man's inheritance was going to be turned upside down. (Gen.25:23)
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The reason for this, goes straight to the mind of God. God had made this determination from eternity before anything had been created. It was written by Malachi: Mal 1:2-3 ... I have loved you, saith Jehovah. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith Jehovah: yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness. The natural man could not see how this was a demonstration of God's love. This verse also, clearly begins to setup an understanding that God's love is directed towards whom He pleases. In some kind of way, this love extends to all but not in the same way. This other kind of way, does not represent God's electing purpose. Rather, God seems to allow those he hates to be used for examples. Perhaps to increases the understanding of sin, for the Elect. ( This last thought is not a, Thus saith the Lord, just a thought) Ultimately though, it is to fulfill a purpose that only God truly understands. After all, the nonelect enjoy the blessings being bestowed on the elect, for now. (Mat.5:45)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Paul anticipates the objection of the reader.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Paul explains there is no injustice in God having mercy and compassion on who he wills. After all, none of mankind, deserves any mercy or compassion. In this same way, God is not unrighteous are unjust to show mercy on whom He chooses. Therefore, if God elects some to His mercy and gives them grace but not others, there is no injustice. All deserved condemnation. Mercy was shown to the elect but there still had to be a payment for their crimes (sin), so Jesus Christ stood in the place of the Elect. The others were passed by. God is not condemning them by passing by, they are already condemned because of the fall. Nothing in His Holy justice demands He save anyone but thankfully, He decided to save a remnant for His own purposes.
16 So then it is not of him through his own will, nor of him that is striving, but of God that is showing mercy.
This single statement, here in this verse, says it all. You can't achieve God's mercy or compassion by your own will are by striving to get it. God is the only one who can give it. Without it, there is no salvation. Your hope is as desolate as Esau's was.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Same purpose, herein spoken of, is to show God's purpose over man's will. God raised up Pharaoh, only for the purpose of showing His power. Pharaoh's sole purpose in life, was to be ruler while God brought forth the plagues. Thus Pharaoh is used as an example. (This goes back to what I said in verse 13.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he is hardening.
God does both, show mercy to whom He will and hardens who He wills. There is both a God hardening and a self hardening. (see verses: Mark 6:52, 8:17; John 12:40; Acts 19:9; Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor.3:44) Christ was hidden from the natural mind, we are told in Scripture and revealed to the elect. (see verses such as, Mat.13:34,35; 16:17; John 1:5)
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Once again, Paul anticipates the readers objections. No one can resist God's determinate will.
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that is making accusations against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Paul now turns with all his force and defends God's Sovereignty. A Simple but unbelievably strong statement. Can the creation, question it's creator. That's like a lab rat, saying to the scientist, "What are you doing to me?" or "Why did you build this maze in this way?" God's Sovereign choice in all things and pertaining to all things is easy to understand and rejoice in, as long as, one approaches from the right direction. In other words, It is not about US and what we want, it is about GOD and what He has determined for us.
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
In other words, God took from the same "lump" (From humanity), and made some to honor (the Elect), and some to dishonor ( the Nonelect ). Or keeping closer to the text, some for "mercy and compassion" and some for unforgivness and hardening.
I also, include the following part of this discussion in Romans:
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
This again, places the emphasis on those whom God made for the purpose of destruction. The world does not like this language and has from the beginning of God revealing himself, tried to usurp this clearly stated truth. This verse takes us back to verses 16 &17, as further explanation.
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he beforehand prepared unto glory,
Here, Paul states that these things are again for an example. Example to whom? The ones made for mercy, which were decreed from eternity. ( "which he beforehand prepared unto glory")
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
Some have tried, to make these passages, apply only to the Jews. But this is clearly a false interpretation. We know this because Paul uses the pronoun "us" and includes the Gentiles or if you prefer "nations".
I hope, that this may help you. The rest is up to the Lord.
You have to keep reading chapters 10 and 11 to understand 9 of Romans .
Romans 11 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Romans 9 is not in a vacuum. The objecter is a jew and its not about calvinism v Arminism and the ' unfair ' argument ' . Not every verse is about Calvinism .
Romans 11 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Romans 9 is not in a vacuum. The objecter is a jew and its not about calvinism v Arminism and the ' unfair ' argument ' . Not every verse is about Calvinism .
Christ died for everyone, as in everyone has the opportunity to repent and turn to him. There are those that reject his offer of forgiveness of sins and salvation, so therefore they are going to hades. All there own fault and no one else. Those that embrace the truth will have eternal life. Many christians have fallen by the wayside, unless they repent they too will perish.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
All this is taking about is that the Nations/Gentiles, obtained salvation through Israel being set aside. Temporarily. This thought, goes right back to:
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. This goes back to national Israel and their later salvation, after the veil of Moses is removed.
Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in;
All this is taking about is that the Nations/Gentiles, obtained salvation through Israel being set aside. Temporarily. This thought, goes right back to:
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. This goes back to national Israel and their later salvation, after the veil of Moses is removed.
Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in;
Let other members decide. Are not the posts that I have put out lengthy in an attempt to handle the Word of God correctly. What are yours? They often time are cut and pasted from other threads. If you can't take the time to present a well thought out case for your argument, then neither shall I waste my time.
God does not want all of mankind to come to repentance. Only those who have been regenerated and have been given a new heart of flesh, instead of their original heart of stone will repent of breaking a spiritual law, because their new heart can be pricked to feel guilty when they break a spiritual law.
The natural man will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot understand, and thinks it to be foolish.
The natural man will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot understand, and thinks it to be foolish.
