///many/(most?) of your soteriological teachings here at CChat stand in opposition to Christianity/// For example? other wise that's an unfounded claim .Hello again throughfaith, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you believe and why (you seem to hold to a combination of both Pelagianism and free grace, which is an odd mixture indeed), and also why "Calvinism" is always your target of choice. Quite frankly, many/(most?) of your soteriological teachings here at CChat stand in opposition to Christianity, in general, not to Calvinism, in particular. And while it is certainly true to say that many of your beliefs disagree with Calvinism, it is equally true to say that most of what you believe and teach disagrees with every other accepted systematic theology within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, as well many of the historic beliefs of our Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant denominations/churches too.
This was again the case in my last reply above (to Ogom) concerning the nature and definition of free will. While it's certainly true that Calvinism teaches that our will is "free" whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time, that teaching is hardly unique to Calvinism. Nevertheless you, once again, mentioned "Calvinism", when the whole of orthodox Christendom teaches the very same thing.
The question is why? Why is "Calvinism" always your in your cross hairs when what you believe/teach stands is opposition to the rest of Christianity too
NONE .. "at that time" .. had been drawn and given to Jesus by His Father because the work that He needed to finish on the Cross (to be our Savior) was still a future event.
The Bible tells us that NONE can come to Jesus apart from His Father "drawing". It also teaches us that ALL who are so drawn WILL come to Him and be saved by Him.
John 637 ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
MANY chose to "follow" Jesus while He walked on this earth, not for salvation, but to fill their bellies with the food that He offered them. These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught.
Finally, NONE were Christians at that time. In fact, the Apostle John appears to be the first Christian believer .. John 20:8.
~Deut
Assurance of salvation
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I would appreciate some examples given that I am at odds with theHello again throughfaith, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you believe and why (you seem to hold to a combination of both Pelagianism and free grace, which is an odd mixture indeed
This was again the case in my last reply above (to Ogom) concerning the nature and definition of free will. While it's certainly true that Calvinism teaches that our will is "free" whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time, that teaching is hardly unique to Calvinism. Nevertheless you, once again, mentioned "Calvinism", when the whole of orthodox Christendom teaches the very same thing.
The question is why? Why is "Calvinism" always your in your cross hairs when what you believe/teach stands is opposition to the rest of Christianity too
NONE .. "at that time" .. had been drawn and given to Jesus by His Father because the work that He needed to finish on the Cross (to be our Savior) was still a future event.
The Bible tells us that NONE can come to Jesus apart from His Father "drawing". It also teaches us that ALL who are so drawn WILL come to Him and be saved by Him.
John 637 ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
MANY chose to "follow" Jesus while He walked on this earth, not for salvation, but to fill their bellies with the food that He offered them. These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught.
Finally, NONE were Christians at that time. In fact, the Apostle John appears to be the first Christian believer .. John 20:8.
~Deut
I would appreciate some examples of what you feel that I believe that is at odds with the whole of christian teachings please? otherwise that's quite a charge .Hello again throughfaith, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you believe and why (you seem to hold to a combination of both Pelagianism and free grace, which is an odd mixture indeed
This was again the case in my last reply above (to Ogom) concerning the nature and definition of free will. While it's certainly true that Calvinism teaches that our will is "free" whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time, that teaching is hardly unique to Calvinism. Nevertheless you, once again, mentioned "Calvinism", when the whole of orthodox Christendom teaches the very same thing.
The question is why? Why is "Calvinism" always your in your cross hairs when what you believe/teach stands is opposition to the rest of Christianity too
NONE .. "at that time" .. had been drawn and given to Jesus by His Father because the work that He needed to finish on the Cross (to be our Savior) was still a future event.
The Bible tells us that NONE can come to Jesus apart from His Father "drawing". It also teaches us that ALL who are so drawn WILL come to Him and be saved by Him.
John 637 ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
MANY chose to "follow" Jesus while He walked on this earth, not for salvation, but to fill their bellies with the food that He offered them. These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught.
Finally, NONE were Christians at that time. In fact, the Apostle John appears to be the first Christian believer .. John 20:8.
~Deut
These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught. /// sounds familiarHello again throughfaith, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you believe and why (you seem to hold to a combination of both Pelagianism and free grace, which is an odd mixture indeed
This was again the case in my last reply above (to Ogom) concerning the nature and definition of free will. While it's certainly true that Calvinism teaches that our will is "free" whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time, that teaching is hardly unique to Calvinism. Nevertheless you, once again, mentioned "Calvinism", when the whole of orthodox Christendom teaches the very same thing.
The question is why? Why is "Calvinism" always your in your cross hairs when what you believe/teach stands is opposition to the rest of Christianity too
NONE .. "at that time" .. had been drawn and given to Jesus by His Father because the work that He needed to finish on the Cross (to be our Savior) was still a future event.
The Bible tells us that NONE can come to Jesus apart from His Father "drawing". It also teaches us that ALL who are so drawn WILL come to Him and be saved by Him.
John 637 ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
MANY chose to "follow" Jesus while He walked on this earth, not for salvation, but to fill their bellies with the food that He offered them. These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught.
Finally, NONE were Christians at that time. In fact, the Apostle John appears to be the first Christian believer .. John 20:8.
~Deut
Keep reading....And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."Hello again throughfaith, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you believe and why (you seem to hold to a combination of both Pelagianism and free grace, which is an odd mixture indeed
This was again the case in my last reply above (to Ogom) concerning the nature and definition of free will. While it's certainly true that Calvinism teaches that our will is "free" whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time, that teaching is hardly unique to Calvinism. Nevertheless you, once again, mentioned "Calvinism", when the whole of orthodox Christendom teaches the very same thing.
The question is why? Why is "Calvinism" always your in your cross hairs when what you believe/teach stands is opposition to the rest of Christianity too
NONE .. "at that time" .. had been drawn and given to Jesus by His Father because the work that He needed to finish on the Cross (to be our Savior) was still a future event.
The Bible tells us that NONE can come to Jesus apart from His Father "drawing". It also teaches us that ALL who are so drawn WILL come to Him and be saved by Him.
John 637 ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
MANY chose to "follow" Jesus while He walked on this earth, not for salvation, but to fill their bellies with the food that He offered them. These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught.
Finally, NONE were Christians at that time. In fact, the Apostle John appears to be the first Christian believer .. John 20:8.
~Deut
There is no verse after the cross where the Father is drawing anyone or The Holy Spirit. Don't you think if this major idea and fuss about ' drawing, ' being essential, Paul would mention it at least once in his entire 13 epistles?Hello again throughfaith, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you believe and why (you seem to hold to a combination of both Pelagianism and free grace, which is an odd mixture indeed
This was again the case in my last reply above (to Ogom) concerning the nature and definition of free will. While it's certainly true that Calvinism teaches that our will is "free" whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time, that teaching is hardly unique to Calvinism. Nevertheless you, once again, mentioned "Calvinism", when the whole of orthodox Christendom teaches the very same thing.
The question is why? Why is "Calvinism" always your in your cross hairs when what you believe/teach stands is opposition to the rest of Christianity too
NONE .. "at that time" .. had been drawn and given to Jesus by His Father because the work that He needed to finish on the Cross (to be our Savior) was still a future event.
The Bible tells us that NONE can come to Jesus apart from His Father "drawing". It also teaches us that ALL who are so drawn WILL come to Him and be saved by Him.
John 637 ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
MANY chose to "follow" Jesus while He walked on this earth, not for salvation, but to fill their bellies with the food that He offered them. These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught.
Finally, NONE were Christians at that time. In fact, the Apostle John appears to be the first Christian believer .. John 20:8.
~Deut
It might be easier to just ask me what I believe.Hello again throughfaith, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you believe and why (you seem to hold to a combination of both Pelagianism and free grace, which is an odd mixture indeed
This was again the case in my last reply above (to Ogom) concerning the nature and definition of free will. While it's certainly true that Calvinism teaches that our will is "free" whenever we are able to choose what we want most at a given moment in time, that teaching is hardly unique to Calvinism. Nevertheless you, once again, mentioned "Calvinism", when the whole of orthodox Christendom teaches the very same thing.
The question is why? Why is "Calvinism" always your in your cross hairs when what you believe/teach stands is opposition to the rest of Christianity too
NONE .. "at that time" .. had been drawn and given to Jesus by His Father because the work that He needed to finish on the Cross (to be our Savior) was still a future event.
The Bible tells us that NONE can come to Jesus apart from His Father "drawing". It also teaches us that ALL who are so drawn WILL come to Him and be saved by Him.
John 637 ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
MANY chose to "follow" Jesus while He walked on this earth, not for salvation, but to fill their bellies with the food that He offered them. These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught.
Finally, NONE were Christians at that time. In fact, the Apostle John appears to be the first Christian believer .. John 20:8.
~Deut
Hello again throughfaith, Pelagius was a monk who lived at the same time St. Augustine did. He taught that the human race was NOT affected by stain of original sin, and that we had no need therefore for God to graciously intervene to make coming to Christ possible (IOW, he taught that there was no need for God's grace for someone to be saved, be it Irresistible or Prevenient grace).
The teaching that Jesus came here and died on the Cross to save us from both the penalty of our sins and (thereby) from His Father's wrath ~in the age to come~ is certainly true, but Free Grace also teaches, "easy believism". That's the part of Free Grace soteriology that I'm referring to as being heretical since it stands in opposition to the Biblical doctrine of sanctification .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13 (IOW, opposed to the Biblical teaching that God changes us and quickens/regenerates/makes us alive in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, Ephesians 2:4-5, and thereby into new creatures in Christ as His workmanship (or masterpiece) .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10 .. and that on this side of the grave .. such that we desire to be saved from the from our carnality and worldliness/from the power of sin in our lives, and are made more and more like Christ throughout of days .. in this life).
I believe that I just gave you three, yes, both the heretical teachings of Pelagianism and Easy Believism, and third, your definition of free will (whatever it is
), which apparently stands in opposition to both the church's and Calvinism's definition of it (which are one and the same).~Deut
There is no need for any further verse. And Revelation 22:17 clearly states that the Holy Spirit draws all men to Christ.
.
As an aside, what does v32 mean to you? IOW, in what way/ways can it be said/demonstrated that the Lord has drawn ~ALL~ men (without exception) to Himself (assuming that is what you mean, of course), since we know that there are people dying every day who have never heard His name, even used as a cuss word)?
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - as @Nehemiah6 just said above (and as I said to you awhile back in a different thread), no additional teaching about the Father's drawing is necessary. It is, after all, a monergistic act on the part of the Father, and as such, requires neither further explanation nor regular reminders (as if we, ourselves, had something to do with it and needed to be reminded). As I'm sure you've noticed, the necessity of His drawing has not been lost on any church or denomination (which is evidenced by the fact that all, within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, teach the necessity of the Father's drawing by grace).
.
Hi throughfaith, John 12's, "I .. will draw all people to Myself", is not the same as the drawing in John 6, a drawing, in that case, that is accomplished by the Father Himself.
John 6
44 “No one can come to Me unless ~the Father~ who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 12
32 “~I~, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
As an aside, what does v32 mean to you? IOW, in what way/ways can it be said/demonstrated that the Lord has drawn ~ALL~ men (without exception) to Himself (assuming that is what you mean, of course
), since we know that there are people dying every day who have never heard His name, even used as a cuss word)?Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - as @Nehemiah6 just said above (and as I said to you awhile back in a different thread), no additional teaching about the Father's drawing is necessary. It is, after all, a monergistic act on the part of the Father, and as such, requires neither further explanation nor regular reminders (as if we, ourselves, had something to do with it and needed to be reminded). As I'm sure you've noticed, the necessity of His drawing has not been lost on any church or denomination (which is evidenced by the fact that all, within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, teach the necessity of the Father's drawing by grace).
.
Hello again @throughfaith (et al), I just noticed a few typos that may confuse what I meant in part of my post above. If you'd like me to fix those and repost it, just let me know, because my 5 min editing time is over.Hello again throughfaith, Pelagius was a monk who lived at the same time St. Augustine did. He taught that the human race was NOT affected by stain of original sin, and that we had no need therefore for God to graciously intervene to make coming to Christ possible (IOW, he taught that there was no need for God's grace for someone to be saved, be it Irresistible or Prevenient grace).
The teaching that Jesus came here and died on the Cross to save us from both the penalty of our sins and (thereby) from His Father's wrath ~in the age to come~ is certainly true, but Free Grace also teaches, "easy believism". That's the part of Free Grace soteriology that I'm referring to as being heretical since it stands in opposition to the Biblical doctrine of sanctification .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13 (IOW, opposed to the Biblical teaching that God changes us and quickens/regenerates/makes us alive in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, Ephesians 2:4-5, and thereby into new creatures in Christ as His workmanship (or masterpiece) .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10 .. and that on this side of the grave .. such that we desire to be saved from the from our carnality and worldliness/from the power of sin in our lives, and are made more and more like Christ throughout of days .. in this life).
I believe that I just gave you three, yes, both the heretical teachings of Pelagianism and Easy Believism, and third, your definition of free will (whatever it is
~Deut
Sorry about that
~Deut
Yes, John 6:65 being among them, of course. Wait, are you saying that you also disagree with some of the things that the Lord taught us (just like His hungry, former followers did)These were also the ones who left Him when they heard Him some of the radical sounding things He taught. /// sounds familiar
Say it ain't so 
Thanks again
~Duet
p.s. - because of some of the things that I've said to you in my last 2-3 posts (about you holding heretical beliefs), I think I should also say that holding such beliefs does not mean that you are not a Christian. From what I've read of yours here at CChat, I believe that you are a Christian, in point of fact (even though I don't agree with everything that you believe/teach).
Well for the sake of time, as I think Pelagius ( The boogeyman scare tactic ) is often mis quoted . And this is why were still dealing with Augustines philosophy/ theology . Essentially He fell back on his Manichaeism to try out do Pelagius in debate . I do not believeHello again throughfaith, Pelagius was a monk who lived at the same time St. Augustine did. He taught that the human race was NOT affected by stain of original sin, and that we had no need therefore for God to graciously intervene to make coming to Christ possible (IOW, he taught that there was no need for God's grace for someone to be saved, be it Irresistible or Prevenient grace).
The teaching that Jesus came here and died on the Cross to save us from both the penalty of our sins and (thereby) from His Father's wrath ~in the age to come~ is certainly true, but Free Grace also teaches, "easy believism". That's the part of Free Grace soteriology that I'm referring to as being heretical since it stands in opposition to the Biblical doctrine of sanctification .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13 (IOW, opposed to the Biblical teaching that God changes us and quickens/regenerates/makes us alive in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, Ephesians 2:4-5, and thereby into new creatures in Christ as His workmanship (or masterpiece) .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10 .. and that on this side of the grave .. such that we desire to be saved from the from our carnality and worldliness/from the power of sin in our lives, and are made more and more like Christ throughout of days .. in this life).
I believe that I just gave you three, yes, both the heretical teachings of Pelagianism and Easy Believism, and third, your definition of free will (whatever it is
~Deut
in the calvinist( Augustine) version of ' original sin where its said we inherited the ' guilt ' of Adam s sin. I do not agree with the idea that we were not affected by the fall . That would be ridiculous to say the least . The whole of creation was affected . However I do not believe in the unbiblical idea of previenient Grace ( that even Calvinists argue against ) and irresistible grace. Both have to be assumed because of the system ( Both Calvinism and Arminain s agree on the T for the most part ) This is a blind spot in Calvinism as they only see two options , Calvin or Armin and usually are not prepared with any other script to deal with a third of forth option. There only taught how to refute Arminians. Every one who is not a Calvinist in there world view is a Arminain/ Pelagian/ free will worshipper. Anything outside of this is not comfortable for the Calvinst to handle with the prepared rebuttals.
My arguement would be against Irresistible Grace and Previeniant grace . Specifically as it is taught in Calvinism and Arminism..
Hi throughfaith, John 12's, "I .. will draw all people to Myself", is not the same as the drawing in John 6, a drawing, in that case, that is accomplished by the Father Himself.
John 644 “No one can come to Me unless ~the Father~ who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”John 1232 “~I~, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
As an aside, what does v32 mean to you? IOW, in what way/ways can it be said/demonstrated that the Lord has drawn ~ALL~ men (without exception) to Himself (assuming that is what you mean, of course
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - as @Nehemiah6 just said above (and as I said to you awhile back in a different thread), no additional teaching about the Father's drawing is necessary. It is, after all, a monergistic act on the part of the Father, and as such, requires neither further explanation nor regular reminders (as if we, ourselves, had something to do with it and needed to be reminded). As I'm sure you've noticed, the necessity of His drawing has not been lost on any church or denomination (which is evidenced by the fact that all, within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, teach the necessity of the Father's drawing by grace).
.
That's ok I've made clear that all 5 points of Calvinism are false and I've also said that does not mean i think Calvinists are not saved . I think most calvinists become involved into this worldview after they are saved . A lot of people have Calvinist presups without even realising it . Because it has permeated into most traditions and denominations. For a season I succumbed to its tentacles but thankfully pulled away when I did.Yes, John 6:65 being among them, of course. Wait, are you saying that you also disagree with some of the things that the Lord taught us (just like His hungry, former followers did)
Thanks again
~Duet
p.s. - because of some of the things that I've said to you in my last 2-3 posts (about you holding heretical beliefs), I think I should also say that holding such beliefs does not mean that you are not a Christian. From what I've read of yours here at CChat, I believe that you are a Christian, in point of fact (even though I don't agree with everything that you believe/teach).
I notice you quoted Eze 36 ? This does not refer to anything other than what it specifically says in those verses . To Israel . This is something that they will experience in the future. its not about regeneration in the Church age . There is no mention of atonement, faith, Jesus ,the cross , believe , repent . We are not ' caused ' to walk in statutes and ordinaces . Does that even sound like its aimed at gentiles in 2020 ?Hello again throughfaith, Pelagius was a monk who lived at the same time St. Augustine did. He taught that the human race was NOT affected by stain of original sin, and that we had no need therefore for God to graciously intervene to make coming to Christ possible (IOW, he taught that there was no need for God's grace for someone to be saved, be it Irresistible or Prevenient grace).
The teaching that Jesus came here and died on the Cross to save us from both the penalty of our sins and (thereby) from His Father's wrath ~in the age to come~ is certainly true, but Free Grace also teaches, "easy believism". That's the part of Free Grace soteriology that I'm referring to as being heretical since it stands in opposition to the Biblical doctrine of sanctification .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13 (IOW, opposed to the Biblical teaching that God changes us and quickens/regenerates/makes us alive in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, Ephesians 2:4-5, and thereby into new creatures in Christ as His workmanship (or masterpiece) .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10 .. and that on this side of the grave .. such that we desire to be saved from the from our carnality and worldliness/from the power of sin in our lives, and are made more and more like Christ throughout of days .. in this life).
I believe that I just gave you three, yes, both the heretical teachings of Pelagianism and Easy Believism, and third, your definition of free will (whatever it is
~Deut
The issue here is on the ' /// God to graciously intervene to make coming to Christ possible /// as you said . This is the sticking point. I believe this is where the philosophy begins. And it hinges on the T . Total inability . To the extent that even hearing the Gospel is not sufficient without first either some sort of partial resistble regeneration/ quickening that brings a person to be able . Or irresistible ( regeneration precedes faith . ) This is inference and not scriptural.Hello again throughfaith, Pelagius was a monk who lived at the same time St. Augustine did. He taught that the human race was NOT affected by stain of original sin, and that we had no need therefore for God to graciously intervene to make coming to Christ possible (IOW, he taught that there was no need for God's grace for someone to be saved, be it Irresistible or Prevenient grace).
The teaching that Jesus came here and died on the Cross to save us from both the penalty of our sins and (thereby) from His Father's wrath ~in the age to come~ is certainly true, but Free Grace also teaches, "easy believism". That's the part of Free Grace soteriology that I'm referring to as being heretical since it stands in opposition to the Biblical doctrine of sanctification .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13 (IOW, opposed to the Biblical teaching that God changes us and quickens/regenerates/makes us alive in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, Ephesians 2:4-5, and thereby into new creatures in Christ as His workmanship (or masterpiece) .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10 .. and that on this side of the grave .. such that we desire to be saved from the from our carnality and worldliness/from the power of sin in our lives, and are made more and more like Christ throughout of days .. in this life).
I believe that I just gave you three, yes, both the heretical teachings of Pelagianism and Easy Believism, and third, your definition of free will (whatever it is
~Deut
Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)
/////John 12.
Hi throughfaith, John 12's, "I .. will draw all people to Myself", is not the same as the drawing in John 6, a drawing, in that case, that is accomplished by the Father Himself.
John 644 “No one can come to Me unless ~the Father~ who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”John 1232 “~I~, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
As an aside, what does v32 mean to you? IOW, in what way/ways can it be said/demonstrated that the Lord has drawn ~ALL~ men (without exception) to Himself (assuming that is what you mean, of course
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - as @Nehemiah6 just said above (and as I said to you awhile back in a different thread), no additional teaching about the Father's drawing is necessary. It is, after all, a monergistic act on the part of the Father, and as such, requires neither further explanation nor regular reminders (as if we, ourselves, had something to do with it and needed to be reminded). As I'm sure you've noticed, the necessity of His drawing has not been lost on any church or denomination (which is evidenced by the fact that all, within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, teach the necessity of the Father's drawing by grace).
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32 “~I~, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
As an aside, what does v32 mean to you? IOW, in what way/ways can it be said/demonstrated that the Lord has drawn ~ALL~ men (without exception) to Himself (assuming that is what you mean, of course
), since we know that there are people dying every day who have never heard His name, even used as a cuss word)?////// Jesus died for the whole world . This is clear . But this is where those that have a system come undone . Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world is not a problem for the bible . Nor is Jesus meaning what He says . That He is that true light that ligtheth every man that cometh into the world . That He will ' attract ' all men to himself. That The Holy Spirit will reprove the world for their unbelief in Jesus . Calvinism has created its own dilemma because of its faulty view on the atonement. Thats why we have the silly ' dilemma ' which usually gets people sucked into reformed churches in the first place . Particular Atonement theory. everyone without distinction or to everyone without exception? Trap . Until a calvinist can find his way out of this 'dilemma 'he will remain a Calvinist . But its not a dilemma when we just believe the bible .
Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)
When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)
Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)
Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)
Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)
P
pottersclay
Guest
I don't know so let me throw this out there.
Man was created in the image of God a much debated issue is what that image is.
I take it to mean immortal. Why? It is the only God like attribute we all have in common.
The question is where will you spend your eternity.
So if we all are created in this image that means we were all predestined. God does not create for radom but by purpose.
Jesus said we must be born again. We are corrupted because of sin which has infected our minds, our hearts , our very bodies.
The very first step of faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God brings a witness to our spirit which is a Awakening.
This Awakening brings us back to the garden to the day of decision. To accept or deny, to believe or not.
Let me stop right here for now to see the replys before I go further.
Man was created in the image of God a much debated issue is what that image is.
I take it to mean immortal. Why? It is the only God like attribute we all have in common.
The question is where will you spend your eternity.
So if we all are created in this image that means we were all predestined. God does not create for radom but by purpose.
Jesus said we must be born again. We are corrupted because of sin which has infected our minds, our hearts , our very bodies.
The very first step of faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God brings a witness to our spirit which is a Awakening.
This Awakening brings us back to the garden to the day of decision. To accept or deny, to believe or not.
Let me stop right here for now to see the replys before I go further.
I appreciate your thoughts thank you ..
what would you say we are predestined to or for?
I do not hold to Lordship salvation or Easy believism ( the way Calvnists present easy believeism that is ) We all conclude their are false converts within . The bible is clear on this . I believe this can come about through many false teachings . I see more evidence its through Lordship salvation, because the ' doing ' is easily self generated. And recently the 'deconversion ' account of Derick webb , who is a famous ex calvinst singer song writer , his testimony is a great example of the issues with Calvinism creating false converts and a hardening to the truth of rhe GospelHello again throughfaith, Pelagius was a monk who lived at the same time St. Augustine did. He taught that the human race was NOT affected by stain of original sin, and that we had no need therefore for God to graciously intervene to make coming to Christ possible (IOW, he taught that there was no need for God's grace for someone to be saved, be it Irresistible or Prevenient grace).
The teaching that Jesus came here and died on the Cross to save us from both the penalty of our sins and (thereby) from His Father's wrath ~in the age to come~ is certainly true, but Free Grace also teaches, "easy believism". That's the part of Free Grace soteriology that I'm referring to as being heretical since it stands in opposition to the Biblical doctrine of sanctification .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13 (IOW, opposed to the Biblical teaching that God changes us and quickens/regenerates/makes us alive in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, Ephesians 2:4-5, and thereby into new creatures in Christ as His workmanship (or masterpiece) .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10 .. and that on this side of the grave .. such that we desire to be saved from the from our carnality and worldliness/from the power of sin in our lives, and are made more and more like Christ throughout of days .. in this life).
I believe that I just gave you three, yes, both the heretical teachings of Pelagianism and Easy Believism, and third, your definition of free will (whatever it is
~Deut
. I don't think its hard to believe. Of course its not just mental ascent to historical facts . But the historical facts are important . Its believing from the Heart . Romans 10 .9
Rom 5.2