Chosen by God - A study in Election
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Boy oh boy....
The argument goes round and round, like watching a front load dryer. At some point, we must simply come to the place, where we realize, that neither side is going to give.
While it is important to defend the Gospel Truth against nay sayers, one must realize as well, that it is pointless to continue to try and convince others of Biblical points who are not willing to explore those points. Certainly, when others throw around terms like Calvinism, then make them equal to cultist, you are wasting your breath or strokes on a keyboard. They have proven themselves unwilling to have a reasonable conversation.
Any side that refuses to explore the possibilities of error, is not going to grow in Grace and knowledge of the Truth. The whole purpose of Biblical study, is to learn more about God and the Savior, Jesus Christ. To learn about God's Purpose for His creation and how man fits into this Purpose. Biblical study is not about supporting some kind of humanistic understanding or even Church Dogma. The true question should be, "Do we understand God's True Purpose?"
God only revealed, for our study, one side of the sphere, the other side is hidden from our view, because in our temporal state of existence, we could not yet understand it. God's purpose is much larger than the mere redemption of sinners. There are lessons to be learned by the observing Angels. A Universe to be cleansed, from the fall of Satan and Adam. A Father's love gift for His Son, which is not yet completed in time but stands completed in Eternity.
If one understands Eternity, the ever present NOW, then God knowing the exact number of those given (past tense) to the Son, should not surprise anyone. Only in the temporal sense is God waiting on the plan of redemption to complete. In the Eternal sense, God is waiting on nothing, the plan has always been completed (the ever present now). The chosen of God are all with Him in Eternity, and always have been. You cannot place time into Eternity. There is "order" in Eternity but not "time". Time came into existence the moment God created but God is not Temporal, He is Eternal. Time has no bearing on God. His Decrees go out in their proper order but not in a temporal sequence, (past, present, future). These Decrees are received into the temporal plane in time order because, Eternity cannot exist on a temporal plane. The Temporal being cannot invade Eternity, it must step out of time into Eternity. However the Eternal may invade the Temporal. This how things like "the mount of transfiguration" took place, even though in time, no Resurrection had taken place. This is how an Old Testament prophet, can just disappear, into the heavens. A Divinely given right, to step out of time, alive.
For some who read this, it will seem like Philosophy or Humanism but it has taken Centuries of Prayer and meditation, to come to this understanding. Many of the things written in the Bible, were influenced by the Holy Spirit, on the writer, with an Eternal view clearly pressed upon the writers mind. Things, such as the language of being Predestinated, Elected, Called, Justified and glorified -- all in the past tense, while many are still future, for the believer trapped in time. This is the language of Eternity.
The argument goes round and round, like watching a front load dryer. At some point, we must simply come to the place, where we realize, that neither side is going to give.
While it is important to defend the Gospel Truth against nay sayers, one must realize as well, that it is pointless to continue to try and convince others of Biblical points who are not willing to explore those points. Certainly, when others throw around terms like Calvinism, then make them equal to cultist, you are wasting your breath or strokes on a keyboard. They have proven themselves unwilling to have a reasonable conversation.
Any side that refuses to explore the possibilities of error, is not going to grow in Grace and knowledge of the Truth. The whole purpose of Biblical study, is to learn more about God and the Savior, Jesus Christ. To learn about God's Purpose for His creation and how man fits into this Purpose. Biblical study is not about supporting some kind of humanistic understanding or even Church Dogma. The true question should be, "Do we understand God's True Purpose?"
God only revealed, for our study, one side of the sphere, the other side is hidden from our view, because in our temporal state of existence, we could not yet understand it. God's purpose is much larger than the mere redemption of sinners. There are lessons to be learned by the observing Angels. A Universe to be cleansed, from the fall of Satan and Adam. A Father's love gift for His Son, which is not yet completed in time but stands completed in Eternity.
If one understands Eternity, the ever present NOW, then God knowing the exact number of those given (past tense) to the Son, should not surprise anyone. Only in the temporal sense is God waiting on the plan of redemption to complete. In the Eternal sense, God is waiting on nothing, the plan has always been completed (the ever present now). The chosen of God are all with Him in Eternity, and always have been. You cannot place time into Eternity. There is "order" in Eternity but not "time". Time came into existence the moment God created but God is not Temporal, He is Eternal. Time has no bearing on God. His Decrees go out in their proper order but not in a temporal sequence, (past, present, future). These Decrees are received into the temporal plane in time order because, Eternity cannot exist on a temporal plane. The Temporal being cannot invade Eternity, it must step out of time into Eternity. However the Eternal may invade the Temporal. This how things like "the mount of transfiguration" took place, even though in time, no Resurrection had taken place. This is how an Old Testament prophet, can just disappear, into the heavens. A Divinely given right, to step out of time, alive.
For some who read this, it will seem like Philosophy or Humanism but it has taken Centuries of Prayer and meditation, to come to this understanding. Many of the things written in the Bible, were influenced by the Holy Spirit, on the writer, with an Eternal view clearly pressed upon the writers mind. Things, such as the language of being Predestinated, Elected, Called, Justified and glorified -- all in the past tense, while many are still future, for the believer trapped in time. This is the language of Eternity.
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That paragraph right there says it all. You've elevated the interpretations of Calvin and the reformers to the same level as Scripture. Catholics could make the same claim, that their positions have taken "centuries of prayer." Your interpretations do not have the same force as Scripture and it is nothing but human pride to elevate the doctrines of men to such a position.
I read it, it's excuses and the same false claims Calvinists typically make. You divorce yourself from the name, but you uphold the tradition. You elevate your interpretation and doctrine to be of the same level of things that are actually present within Scripture. This even while it is obvious those arguing for those doctrine can't make complete sense of verses, case in point being John(the user) pressing on the question of who the "all men" and "especially" are in 1 Timothy.
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Hhhmmmmm.
How does this sound:
-God graciously openen my ears to hear the gospel
-God graciously granted me belief
-God graciously provided me the arrabon of the Holy Spirit, whereby I have been resurrected to new life
There were far too many "I"s in your statement to make me feel comfortable, so I took it upon myself to do some impromptu editing.
Can we agree that your statement sounds far more Biblically accurate now?
How does this sound:
-God graciously openen my ears to hear the gospel
-God graciously granted me belief
-God graciously provided me the arrabon of the Holy Spirit, whereby I have been resurrected to new life
There were far too many "I"s in your statement to make me feel comfortable, so I took it upon myself to do some impromptu editing.
Can we agree that your statement sounds far more Biblically accurate now?
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Well that was a highly intellectual response.. no offense.
I believe Jesus .. not John Calvin and Augustine.
You do know that Augustine concocted this whole false dogma because of his argument Pelagius ..error refuting error.
Do some research and learn how Augustine twisted scripture and of course Calvin being the evil man he was bought it hook, line and sinker.
And here we are today still dealing with this heresy.
I believe Jesus .. not John Calvin and Augustine.
You do know that Augustine concocted this whole false dogma because of his argument Pelagius ..error refuting error.
Do some research and learn how Augustine twisted scripture and of course Calvin being the evil man he was bought it hook, line and sinker.
And here we are today still dealing with this heresy.
In minimizing man to this degree, you minimize the true image of God. You treat it as if Adam somehow overpowered God's creation with his sin and destroyed what God made rather than simply marring it.
We can speak of it in both senses, us making the choice and God making the choice.
Instead you empower man to destroy the work of God through sin and think that somehow lifts God up. Recognizing man's dignity glorifies God, and that includes recognizing man's ability to make genuine decisions.
We can speak of it in both senses, us making the choice and God making the choice.
Instead you empower man to destroy the work of God through sin and think that somehow lifts God up. Recognizing man's dignity glorifies God, and that includes recognizing man's ability to make genuine decisions.
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Let's go back to the reference made earlier.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Why are all of the things highlighted in red, in the past tense? Have you been glorified already?
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Why are all of the things highlighted in red, in the past tense? Have you been glorified already?
Your disposition implies it. You may not directly say it, but by pretending that simply because Eleventh stated her choices were genuine she somehow dishonored God and instead should have placed God's end in it diminishes man's dignity. And it's present in the system top to bottom, because the only reason Calvinism maintains that God's choice is unconditional is because it maintains total depravity which insists the image of God was destroyed and man is totally devoid of anything meritorious and cannot even respond in a positive to God's extending the gospel to them.
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