Chosen by God - A study in Election

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cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
Once again taking verses out of context to twist them to suit your doctrine. The whole dialogue in John 8 betrays that 8:47 is an indictment not a statement of God choosing, the Jews were claiming they were Abraham's children and thereby God's children and Jesus was making it clear that if that were the case they would have recognized Him.

How about rather than doing drive-by theology where you take verses out of context and create meaning for them you actually take the time to sit and read the narratives in context and figure out what is being said? Your whole theology is built on pretext.
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You are stuffing scriptures into your little mental filing folders again, yet refuse to compare scripture with scripture, whereby you could know the truth. What is common among John chapters 6 chapter 8 and chapter 10? Jesus is confronting UNBELIEF!

In Ch8, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"You are of your father the devil" (not of the spiritual chosen seed of Abraham)

In Ch6, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the onehaving sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

In Ch10 v.25, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

Since all of these statements are infallibly true, we can compound them and make the following claim:
-Unbelievers are not the spiritual seed of Abraham and are of their father the devil,
whereas believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham
-Unbelievers are not drawn or called by God the Father, whereas believers are drawn and called
by the Father
-Unbelievers are not Jesus' sheep, where as believers are Jesus sheep hear His voice and follow
Him

I am waiting to hear any arguments to the contrary. Anybody? Are the above-mentioned statements true or false?

Furthermore these sweeping concepts are fleshed out to their ultimate and final form in the epistles of Paul to whom belong to the unveiling of the mystery of the Church.
 
NOV25

NOV25

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cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
You mean besides my references to Joshua and Acts you ignored? You think Jesus was mistaken when He said "seek first the kingdom of God?" Choice is written all over the Bible, and only the willfully blind fail to see it.
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And the Bible clearly declares that only choice that really matters is God's choice. He is after all the one doing the saving. According to His predetermined plan that existed from eternity past before the foundation of the world.

God chose Abraham God chose Isaac God chose Jacob God chose the nation Israel God chose David God chose the prophets God chose John the Baptist God chose the Apostles God chose the woman at the well God chose Paul.........
And God chose every single solitary believer that ever was and that ever will be.

If you have a problem with that you can argue with the apostle Paul.
 
cv5

cv5

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cv5 said:
You are stuffing scriptures into your little mental filing folders again, yet refuse to compare scripture with scripture, whereby you could know the truth. What is common among John chapters 6 chapter 8 and chapter 10? Jesus is confronting UNBELIEF!

In Ch8, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"You are of your father the devil" (not of the spiritual chosen seed of Abraham)

In Ch6, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the onehaving sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

In Ch10 v.25, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

Since all of these statements are infallibly true, we can compound them and make the following claim:
-Unbelievers are not the spiritual seed of Abraham and are of their father the devil,
whereas believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham
-Unbelievers are not drawn or called by God the Father, whereas believers are drawn and called
by the Father
-Unbelievers are not Jesus' sheep, where as believers are Jesus sheep hear His voice and follow
Him

I am waiting to hear any arguments to the contrary. Anybody? Are the above-mentioned statements true or false?

Furthermore these sweeping concepts are fleshed out to their ultimate and final form in the epistles of Paul to whom belong to the unveiling of the mystery of the Church.
Click to expand...
One more addition........

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”
 
B

Bbrdrd

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cv5 said:
And the Bible clearly declares that only choice that really matters is God's choice. He is after all the one doing the saving. According to His predetermined plan that existed from eternity past before the foundation of the world.

God chose Abraham God chose Isaac God chose Jacob God chose the nation Israel God chose David God chose the prophets God chose John the Baptist God chose the Apostles God chose the woman at the well God chose Paul.........
And God chose every single solitary believer that ever was and that ever will be.

If you have a problem with that you can argue with the apostle Paul.
Click to expand...
The apostle Paul isn't the one who put forth particular election, such a notion wasn't present until men started overlaying Biblical revelation with humanist individualism which is why it wasn't an issue until Calvin and why the heresy bears Calvin's name.

You speak of wanting Scripture, but then when you are given Scripture rather than dealing with it you pontificate on your doctrine. It's quite clear all you have is pretext built on modern assumptions.
 
B

Bbrdrd

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cv5 said:
You are stuffing scriptures into your little mental filing folders again, yet refuse to compare scripture with scripture, whereby you could know the truth. What is common among John chapters 6 chapter 8 and chapter 10? Jesus is confronting UNBELIEF!

In Ch8, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"You are of your father the devil" (not of the spiritual chosen seed of Abraham)

In Ch6, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the onehaving sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

In Ch10 v.25, Jesus is confronting unbelief. Then makes an assessment of why belief does not occur.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

Since all of these statements are infallibly true, we can compound them and make the following claim:
-Unbelievers are not the spiritual seed of Abraham and are of their father the devil,
whereas believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham
-Unbelievers are not drawn or called by God the Father, whereas believers are drawn and called
by the Father
-Unbelievers are not Jesus' sheep, where as believers are Jesus sheep hear His voice and follow
Him

I am waiting to hear any arguments to the contrary. Anybody? Are the above-mentioned statements true or false?

Furthermore these sweeping concepts are fleshed out to their ultimate and final form in the epistles of Paul to whom belong to the unveiling of the mystery of the Church.
Click to expand...
You've got this all backwards because you're begining with the pretext. All of the passages you mention are clearly denouncing the notion of Jewish identity as God's people due to heredity. The idea is not that God picks losers and winners, but that simply because the audience are children of Abraham does not make them children of God because children of God reckon to the teaching of the Father.
Yet for your doctrine you put the horse before the cart.
 
cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
The apostle Paul isn't the one who put forth particular election, such a notion wasn't present until men started overlaying Biblical revelation with humanist individualism which is why it wasn't an issue until Calvin and why the heresy bears Calvin's name.

You speak of wanting Scripture, but then when you are given Scripture rather than dealing with it you pontificate on your doctrine. It's quite clear all you have is pretext built on modern assumptions.
Click to expand...
Prove it. Quote Paul where he says that the converted chose to believe.

2 Thess 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God [[[Paul is not thanking THEM for their believing!]]] for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [[[NOT THEY CHOSE GOD]]] from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
 
B

Bbrdrd

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cv5 said:
Prove it. Quote Paul where he says that the converted chose to believe.

2 Thess 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God [[[Paul is not thanking THEM for their believing!]]] for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [[[NOT THEY CHOSE GOD]]] from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Click to expand...
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
 
E

EleventhHour

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Bbrdrd said:
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
Click to expand...
They have no concept of context .... and when they come against opposition they cannot refute they resort to deception.
 
cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
You've got this all backwards because you're begining with the pretext. All of the passages you mention are clearly denouncing the notion of Jewish identity as God's people due to heredity. The idea is not that God picks losers and winners, but that simply because the audience are children of Abraham does not make them children of God because children of God reckon to the teaching of the Father.
Yet for your doctrine you put the horse before the cart.
Click to expand...
Absolute nonsense. The ONLY thing that matters is BELIEF IN JESUS, and consequently salvation....or damnation. THAT is what matters in John chapter 6 chapter 8 chapter 10 and every other chapter!

Jesus condemned Chorazin, Capernahum and Bethsaida. For what exactly? Esoteric notions of patrilineage? Or their UNBELIEF in the advent of their Messiah?

Matt 11:20-24
20Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum,who[e] are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Every one of the synoptic gospels has one central message: BELIEF IN JESUS! Every word every tangential statement every remark every confrontation every conflict is ultimately related to ONE SINGULAR THEME and COMMAND: BELIEVE IN JESUS as Lord Messiah and Savior.

Perhaps you have failed to comprehend or take notice of what evidently you believe to be a minor triviality?
 
cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
Click to expand...
Show me the scriptures wiseguy. Come on let's see them.
Get off your high horse hit the books and show me the scriptures!

If not then quit being a tragic pathetic whipping post and simply get out of the way.
 
B

Bbrdrd

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cv5 said:
Absolute nonsense. The ONLY thing that matters is BELIEF IN JESUS, and consequently salvation....or damnation. THAT is what matters in John chapter 6 chapter 8 chapter 10 and every other chapter!

Jesus condemned Chorazin, Capernahum and Bethsaida. For what exactly? Esoteric notions of patrilineage? Or their UNBELIEF in the advent of their Messiah?

Matt 11:20-24
20Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum,who[e] are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Every one of the synoptic gospels has one central message: BELIEF IN JESUS! Every word every tangential statement every remark every confrontation every conflict is ultimately related to ONE SINGULAR THEME and COMMAND: BELIEVE IN JESUS as Lord Messiah and Savior.

Perhaps you have failed to comprehend or take notice of what evidently you believe to be a minor triviality?
Click to expand...
What does Matthew 11 have to do with John 6,8, and 10 other than the fact that they are both in the Bible? Do you really not understand the concept of context?
 
cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
Still with your pretexts. Do you simply not have a concept of context, or is your deception intentional?
Click to expand...
I see your bag of tricks is running empty. As are your scriptural responses.
 
B

Bbrdrd

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cv5 said:
Show me the scriptures wiseguy. Come on let's see them.
Get off your high horse hit the books and show me the scriptures!

If not then quit being a tragic pathetic whipping post and simply get out of the way.
Click to expand...
Your pretext demonstrates you know there are Scripture, since you artificially limited it to Paul. So how about you stop the charade of pretending like you care about what the Bible says and admit you just don't want to give up the teachings of men.
 
cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
What does Matthew 11 have to do with John 6,8, and 10 other than the fact that they are both in the Bible? Do you really not understand the concept of context?
Click to expand...
According to you they have absolutely nothing in common.

Let's ask the board.

Hello board. Does BOTH the book of John and the book of Matthew have as THE common, central and predominate theme the necessity to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Let's take a vote! Thumbs up means yes thumbs down means no.
 
jackrosie

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cv5 said:
Show me the scriptures wiseguy. Come on let's see them.
Get off your high horse hit the books and show me the scriptures!

If not then quit being a tragic pathetic whipping post and simply get out of the way.
Click to expand...


🤣🤣🤣
 
B

Bbrdrd

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cv5 said:
According to you they have absolutely nothing in common.

Let's ask the board.

Hello board. Does BOTH the book of John and the book of Matthew have as THE common, central and predominate theme the necessity to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Let's take a vote! Thumbs up means yes thumbs down means no.
Click to expand...
You don't forward the necessity to believe in Jesus, though. There is no such thing as belief in "unconditional election" just God's choice.

But your hostility and evasion of my question is a nice touch. I'm being serious when I ask if you don't understand what is meant by context in a narrative since you think a verse from another narrative somehow speaks to it. Do you really have trouble with what context means?
 
cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
Your pretext demonstrates you know there are Scripture, since you artificially limited it to Paul. So how about you stop the charade of pretending like you care about what the Bible says and admit you just don't want to give up the teachings of men.
Click to expand...
Men like Paul? Rots of Ruck happy landings.
 
cv5

cv5

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Bbrdrd said:
You don't forward the necessity to believe in Jesus, though. There is no such thing as belief in "unconditional election" just God's choice.

But your hostility and evasion of my question is a nice touch. I'm being serious when I ask if you don't understand what is meant by context in a narrative since you think a verse from another narrative somehow speaks to it. Do you really have trouble with what context means?
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Your mindless bafflegab does nothing to support your's position with scripture that I have asked for for a dozen times.

Your shucking and jiving is becoming tiresome. Show us the scriptures that prove that men first choose God. You can look until your eyes bleed because they are not in there.
 
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