( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

[GaryA]

2) (immediately after those days of tribulation) astronomical signs and earthly signs (Luke 21:25; Matt 24:29)...
3) Then, Fearful things coming upon the earth and Powers of heaven shaken (Luke 21:26; Matt 24:29)...

Careful study should reveal that these verses align with the time of the Two Witnesses - for, they [directly] cause these things (the Trumpet 'events') to come about.

It is not the return of Christ that aligns with the end of the 'Great Tribulation'; rather, it is the beginning of the time of the Two Witnesses.

I believe that the Second Coming of Christ occurs "right after" the end of the time of the Two Witnesses.

(right after the two witnesses are raised up)

 

[GaryA]

Truth be told I was a futurist for decades and decades until I began studying more than just Matthew 24 while relying solely on preachers and teachers telling me that it was always "in the future". Luke 21, Ezekiel 33-39, Daniel 11-12, Revelation 5-14, etc, along with recorded history are all critical witnesses that forced me to reconsider what I was taught.

I grew up in a church that taught 'futurist' interpretations of scripture - which I discovered to be in error while I was yet still in my teen years.

I came to realize that what I was being taught was not what the Bible actually said.

 

[Truth7t7]

Careful study should reveal that these verses align with the time of the Two Witnesses - for, they [directly] cause these things (the Trumpet 'events') to come about.

It is not the return of Christ that aligns with the end of the 'Great Tribulation'; rather, it is the beginning of the time of the Two Witnesses.

I believe that the Second Coming of Christ occurs "right after" the end of the time of the Two Witnesses.

(right after the two witnesses are raised up)

The tribulation and world ends at the second coming of Jesus Christ, directly related to the 7th Angel/Trump in Revelation 11:15 below.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Revelation 11:11-15KJV
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The Second Coming End Of This World

Revelation 10:5-7KJV
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Truth7t7]

Careful study should reveal that these verses align with the time of the Two Witnesses - for, they [directly] cause these things (the Trumpet 'events') to come about.

It is not the return of Christ that aligns with the end of the 'Great Tribulation'; rather, it is the beginning of the time of the Two Witnesses.

I believe that the Second Coming of Christ occurs "right after" the end of the time of the Two Witnesses.

(right after the two witnesses are raised up)

The End Of The Tribulation Happens At The Revealing Of The Two Witnesses?

The Tribulation Starts At The Revealing, As Every Plague Seen In Revelation Is Brought By These Two Returned Prophets.

Revelation 11:10 Below, The Two Prophets (Torment) The World With Plagues, And You Claim The Tribulation Ends?

The Tribulation Ends Hours Or Shortly After The Two Witnesses Are Raised To Heaven, At Third Woe 7th Trump, The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 11:1-15KJV
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Kolistus]

Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Christ.

If it may be of help, please take a look at:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

Be sure to also look at the 'Chronological Order' chart that is below the main chart.

How are we in the time of great tribulation for 2000 years? Things have been and are still relatively peaceful. Most people in America get to wake up and drink their morning coffee in peace, unlike the people in Germany and United Kingdom and Russia during WWII for example

 

[Truth7t7]

How are we in the time of great tribulation for 2000 years? Things have been and are still relatively peaceful. Most people in America get to wake up and drink their morning coffee in peace, unlike the people in Germany and United Kingdom and Russia during WWII for example

The claim the world has been in fulfillment of the Matthew 24:21-22 below is a (Fairy Tale)

The (Future) tribulation will be a (World) event, and will dwarf the likes of World War II in severity, Rev 9:15 a third part of the world will die, 2.5 (Billion) people currently.

There have been dynasty generations for centuries that have lived in (Luxury) the (Rothschild's) would be just one example, have they suffered (Great Tribulation)?

Historicism's teaching that the tribulation started in 70AD and the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 below has been successive desolations and tribulations for the past 1950+ years is false and deceptive.

1.) Matthew 24:14, Daniels AOD Is A (Future) Event

2.) Matthew 24:21, The (Great Tribulation) Is A (Future) Event

3.) Matthew 24:29-30, The Second Coming Is A (Future) Event

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Kolistus]

The claim the world has been in fulfillment of the Matthew 24:21-22 below is a (Fairy Tale)

The (Future) tribulation will be a (World) event, and will dwarf the likes of World War II in severity, Rev 9:15 a third part of the world will die, 2.5 (Billion) people currently.

There have been dynasty generations for centuries that have lived in (Luxury) the (Rothschild's) would be just one example, have they suffered (Great Tribulation)?

Historicism's teaching that the tribulation started in 70AD and the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 below has been successive desolations and tribulations for the past 1950+ years is false and deceptive.

1.) Matthew 24:14, Daniels AOD Is A (Future) Event

2.) Matthew 24:21, The (Great Tribulation) Is A (Future) Event

3.) Matthew 24:29-30, The Second Coming Is A (Future) Event

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Do you believe the abomination of desolation will occur in the rebuilt temple, or do you take a more symbolic approach to it?

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you believe the abomination of desolation will occur in the rebuilt temple, or do you take a more symbolic approach to it?

Literal, whether it's a stone Temple or a movable Tabernacle like during the Exodus with Moses, yes renewed animal sacrifice that's an Abomination to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary will be resumed.

I believe Isaiah Chapter 66 is a glimpse of what's going on shortly before the second coming and eternal kingdom.

You will take note the Jews have built a (House) for the Lord against his will?

You will note renewed animal sacrifice that's a abomination to the Lord, for this God sends delusion and judgement, also seen in 2 Thess 2:11?

Isaiah 66:1-5KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

 

[garee]

Literal, whether it's a stone Temple or a movable Tabernacle like during the Exodus with Moses, yes renewed animal sacrifice that's an Abomination to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary will be resumed.

I believe Isaiah Chapter 66 is a glimpse of what's going on shortly before the second coming and eternal kingdom.

You will take note the Jews have built a (House) for the Lord against his will?

You will note renewed animal sacrifice that's a abomination to the Lord, for this God sends delusion and judgement, also seen in 2 Thess 2:11?

Isaiah 66:1-5KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

I would offer the abomination of desolation is Kings in Isiah .A pagan foundation. Making desolated the King of kings. Lord of lords . Walking by sight rather than by faith the unseen

1 Samuel 8: 7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

 

[Truth7t7]

I would offer the abomination of desolation is Kings in Isiah .A pagan foundation. Making desolated the King of kings. Lord of lords . Walking by sight rather than by faith the unseen

1 Samuel 8: 7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

I would request that you identify what (Version) you are quoting, thanks

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Christ.

If it may be of help, please take a look at:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

Be sure to also look at the 'Chronological Order' chart that is below the main chart.

Matthew 24 Historicist interpretation chart GaryA, accounting for 1,950+ years of desolations and tribulations?

Gary no chart is needed

Matthew 24:15-22, the abomination takes place when the (Future) antichrist is revealed in Jerusalem Proclaiming to be God Messiah, Jesus returned, the 3.5 year (Tribulation Starts)

Matthew 24:29-31 immediately after the tribulation, Jesus Christ returns in the clouds of heaven in fire and final judgement, the resurrection of all takes place, as the earth is DISSOlVED by fire, judgement is complete, eternity begins in the lake of fire for the wicked, and the eternal New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem, for the saved to righteous.

Chart Basic Description Jump Forward, Jump Back, The Time Machine?

Matthew 24:4-5 Vast Jump forward in time?

Matthew 24:6 Near to Far jump forward in time?

Matthew 24:7 Even Further Jump Forward In Time?

Matthew 24:14 Jump Forward In Time?

Matthew 24:15-20 Back To Present And Jumping Forward?

Matthew 24:21-22 The Tribulation Begins?

 

[garee]

Matthew 24 Historicist interpretation chart GaryA, accounting for 1,950+ years of desolations and tribulations?

Gary no chart is needed

Matthew 24:15-22, the abomination takes place when the (Future) antichrist is revealed in Jerusalem Proclaiming to be God Messiah, Jesus returned, the 3.5 year (Tribulation Starts)

Matthew 24:29-31 immediately after the tribulation, Jesus Christ returns in the clouds of heaven in fire and final judgement, the resurrection of all takes place, as the earth is DISSOlVED by fire, judgement is complete, eternity begins in the lake of fire for the wicked, and the eternal New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem, for the saved to righteous.

Chart Basic Description Jump Forward, Jump Back, The Time Machine?

Matthew 24:4-5 Vast Jump forward in time?

Matthew 24:6 Near to Far jump forward in time?

Matthew 24:7 Even Further Jump Forward In Time?

Matthew 24:14 Jump Forward In Time?

Matthew 24:15-20 Back To Present And Jumping Forward?

Matthew 24:21-22 The Tribulation Begins?

The abomination of desolation was Kings in Israel . The faithless elders gathered themselves together without the prompting of the Holy Spirit and demanded that they have a king reigning , lording it over them. . because of their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nations that under their foundation .Out of sight out of mind.

God informed the judge Samuel that its not Samuel they are rejecting as King but the unseen King of kings, Lord of Lords who works in mankind by faith.

When Jesus said it was finished the veil was rent signaling the time of reformation was there.

When the veil was rent their was no Jewish King siting on a throne . It was then Satan fell and chained from deceiving al nations of the world. (Revelation 20 :4 ) The time of gentiles, the promise of Joel came as the new kingdom of priests men and woman prophets from all the nations. The eternal bride of Christ the church

note below . . . . (Purple ) my added comments.

But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, (using the temporal things seen to give the unseen understandings) that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (a parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hebrews 9: 7-8

The time of reformation came two thousand years ago. The effect of the tribulation one like never before or ever again the affects are with us today. On the last day it will be effectively made completely desolate

 

[Truth7t7]

The abomination of desolation was Kings in Israel . The faithless elders gathered themselves together without the prompting of the Holy Spirit and demanded that they have a king reigning , lording it over them. . because of their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nations that under their foundation .Out of sight out of mind.

God informed the judge Samuel that its not Samuel they are rejecting as King but the unseen King of kings, Lord of Lords who works in mankind by faith.

When Jesus said it was finished the veil was rent signaling the time of reformation was there.

When the veil was rent their was no Jewish King siting on a throne . It was then Satan fell and chained from deceiving al nations of the world. (Revelation 20 :4 ) The time of gentiles, the promise of Joel came as the new kingdom of priests men and woman prophets from all the nations. The eternal bride of Christ the church

note below . . . . (Purple ) my added comments.

But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, (using the temporal things seen to give the unseen understandings) that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (a parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hebrews 9: 7-8

The time of reformation came two thousand years ago. The effect of the tribulation one like never before or ever again the affects are with us today. On the last day it will be effectively made completely desolate

I fully disagree with your interpretation.

There will be a future literal human man a (Jew) who will proclaim to be Messiah to the Jew, and Jesus Returned to the apostate Church in Jerusalem, (The Antichrist/Man Of Sin)

This Human Man will cause (Set Up) and cause the future abomination of desolation that starts the future 3.5 year (Great Tribulation)

Matthew 24:15-22, the abomination takes place when the (Future) antichrist is revealed in Jerusalem Proclaiming to be God Messiah, Jesus returned, the 3.5 year (Tribulation Starts)

Matthew 24:29-31 immediately after the tribulation, Jesus Christ returns in the clouds of heaven in fire and final judgement, the resurrection of all takes place, as the earth is DISSOlVED by fire, judgement is complete, eternity begins in the lake of fire for the wicked, and the eternal New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem, for the saved to righteous.

 

[Jackson123]

The intent of this thread is to help Christians better understand a very commonly overlooked and ignored part of Olivet Discourse prophecy.

The parenthetical phrase in the title (found in Matthew 24:15), along with the Mark 13:14 counterpart, are 'key' to understanding the prophecy.

Before we get to what it means (that the Jews understood very well), I want to remind you of something concerning the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew, Mark, Luke).

The three [separate] accounts of the Olivet Discourse are just exactly that - three accounts of the same event by three different writers.

While it is true that some of the details of the Olivet Discourse event are not recorded exactly the same way or in the exact same words in all three accounts (or, even, recorded in all three accounts - being left out of one or both of the other accounts), it is still [also] true - and does not change - that it is simply-and-only the same one event being recorded by three different writers.

The 'witness' of the event is the same for all three writers:

~ Matthew did not witness anything different than Mark or Luke.

~ Mark did not witness anything different than Matthew or Luke.

~ Luke did not witness anything different than Matthew or Mark.

You may find the following chart containing a table of coordinated verses of scripture to be useful in "visualizing" the continued discussion:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

If you will note on the chart that each row of the table aligns verses from the three accounts that "go together" in the overall "picture" of the Olivet Discourse.

Examine row 15 very carefully.

Now I will explain the meaning of the parenthetical statements "in reverse" . . . (I think it may make more sense to you this way.)

What Matthew and Mark "encrypted" - along with the 'decryption key' (the parenthetical statement) - Luke "just came out and said it" (simple, straight, and point-blank).

All three writers are saying the exact same thing.

The thing that the Jews understood that [most] modern Bible students do not - is that Matthew and Mark were making an indirect reference to the Abomination of Desolation and not a literal direct one.

They made reference to what Daniel was referring to and not the event Daniel was referring to.

The event Daniel was referring to occurred in 167 B.C.

The Jews understood them to be saying, in effect, that "when you see [what happened at the time of the AoD] begin/start to happen again" . . .

What happened at the time of the AoD that they understood?

Luke wrote it very simply and directly.

If you study the history, you will find that the description that Luke wrote is exactly what happened at the time of the AoD. (the surrounding of Jerusalem by/with armies and the desolation of Jerusalem)

The Matthew and Mark verses in row 15 are NOT actually saying "when you see the event occur (that Daniel is referring to)"; rather, they are saying "when you see [what happened at the time of the event (that Daniel is referring to)] occur" . . .

The actual event time for what Luke wrote is/was ~70 A.D.

What Matthew and Mark wrote is simply a different way of saying the same exact thing Luke said.

All three accounts are saying the exact same thing.

This is what you need to remember.

The explanation is for the purpose of helping you understand why and how it is that all three accounts are actually saying the same thing.

Salvation is invitation from God for whosoever believe His Son.

 

[GaryA]

A reminder:

Anyone wanting to refute my explanation of the title parenthetical statement should provide a better one that we may all consider.

The parenthetical statements in Matthew and Mark are the focus of this thread.

Let's stay on track...

 

[Truth7t7]

A reminder:

No Reminder Needed, Nobody is off track

You teach that the AOD of Daniel took place in 167BC, and the (Great Tribulation) started in 70AD and will end at the revealing of the future (Two Witnesses)

Your claims are false and have been soundly refuted in this thread.

 

[GaryA]

No Reminder Needed, Nobody is off track

Anyone who is not discussing the meaning of the parenthetical phrases in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 is off-track. Period.

And, don't give me any crap. It's my thread, my topic, and my definition ('off-track'). Don't be a TROLL. If you insist on acting like a TROLL, I will report you and insist that you leave the thread permanently.

You teach that the AOD of Daniel took place in 167BC, and the (Great Tribulation) started in 70AD and will end at the revealing of the future (Two Witnesses)

And, it has a sound scriptural basis - which you are not willing to give any consideration to whatsoever.

Your claims are false and have been soundly refuted in this thread.

Only in your mind...

 

[Truth7t7]

And, don't give me any crap. It's my thread, my topic, and my definition ('off-track'). Don't be a TROLL. If you insist on acting like a TROLL, I will report you and insist that you leave the thread permanently.

Sounds like a person that has been defeated in their false claims that the AOD took place in 70AD, and the (Great Tribulation) started in 70AD

Yes you have made these (False Claims) throughout the thread.

A 1,950+ year period of desolations and tribulations?

Now that's trying to sell swamp land in Florida!

 

[Truth7t7]

Anyone who is not discussing the meaning of the parenthetical phrases in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 is off-track. Period.

And, don't give me any crap. It's my thread, my topic, and my definition ('off-track'). Don't be a TROLL. If you insist on acting like a TROLL, I will report you and insist that you leave the thread permanently.


And, it has a sound scriptural basis - which you are not willing to give any consideration to whatsoever.


Only in your mind...

(Correction 167BC for 70AD)

Sounds like a person that has been defeated in their false claims that the AOD took place in 167BC, and the (Great Tribulation) started in 70AD

Yes you have made these (False Claims) throughout the thread.

A 1,950+ year period of desolations and tribulations?

Now that's trying to sell swamp land in Florida!

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is a 3.5-year period of time in there...