Not By Works

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OIC1965

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CherieR said:
Hello VCO, I think in some situations grumbling can be a sign of lack of faith. Other times I believe it is due to impatience and not getting one's own way. We are to be about the Lord's way and not our own way.

If you think about the Lord's commands, things he would have us do, much of these are things that are of peace. Things like loving one another, trusting in the Lord, giving thanks, not holding grudges but forgiving one another etc. I see in such instructions help for peace in one's own heart as well as promoting peace with others.
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Excellent post.
 
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OIC1965

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EleventhHour said:
These two statements are somewhat contradictory

And your second statement is not the doctrine of predestination.
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A. No contradiction at all

B. What I said is ONE VIEW (not the only one) of Election, not a view of predestination.

Either way, the Elect are those who either believe and are saved or will believe and be saved in the future, and none other.

Right?
 
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EleventhHour

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OIC1965 said:
A. No contradiction at all

B. What I said is ONE VIEW (not the only one) of Election, not a view of predestination.

Either way, the Elect are those who either believe and are saved or will believe and be saved in the future, and none other.

Right?
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The elect are not predetermined by God to believe by means of irresistible grace.

People choose to believe correct?
 
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OIC1965

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EleventhHour said:
These two statements are somewhat contradictory

And your second statement is not the doctrine of predestination.
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God chooses and those chosen believe. This is certain whether the election is the result of foreseen faith or if the faith is the result of the Election.

But predestination comes before calling, justification, and glorification according to Romans 8. And the predestination mentioned there is the predestination regarding the Elect.
 
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EleventhHour

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OIC1965 said:
God chooses individuals and those chosen individuals believe. This is certain whether the election is the result of foreseen faith or if the faith is the result of the Election.

But predestination comes before calling, justification, and glorification according to Romans 8. And the predestination mentioned there is the predestination regarding the Electb
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OIC1965 said:
God chooses individuals and those chosen individuals believe.
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I do not agree this is biblical and when I have time I will discuss further.

But I can say this much... scripture is clear faith comes by hearing not by God's irresistible grace.

Irresistible grace is required if God chooses individuals to believe.

TULIP does not work in bits and pieces.
 
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OIC1965

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EleventhHour said:
I do not agree this is biblical and when I have time I will discuss further.

But I can say this much... scripture is clear faith comes by hearing not by God's irresistible grace.

Irresistible grace is required if God chooses individuals to believe.

TULIP does not work in bits and pieces.
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I do not believe in irresistable grace and I do not subscribe to Tulip.
 
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OIC1965

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OIC1965 said:
I do not believe in irresistable grace and I do not subscribe to Tulip.
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You are committing a false dichotomy. What you believe and Tulip Calvinism are not the only two possible explanations or views of election in Christianity.
 
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EleventhHour

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OIC1965 said:
I do not believe in irresistable grace and I do not subscribe to Tulip.
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I understand that, and that is good thing, however to state that God chooses necessitates it ..... if the person is chosen by God they have no say in the matter.
 
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OIC1965

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EleventhHour said:
I understand that, and that is good thing, however to state that God chooses necessitates it ..... if the person is chosen by God they have no say in the matter.
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Jesus chose the twelve. Did they have a say in the matter? Did Jeremiah the prophet have a say in the matter? I know that is election to an office, but whether they had a choice is still a relevant question.
 
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EleventhHour

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OIC1965 said:
So then you can be chosen for something without being forced. So no contradiction on my part, right?
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They accepted the invitation.

Jesus choosing his disciples is not analogous to God's offer of eternal life.
 
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OIC1965

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EleventhHour said:
They accepted the invitation.

Jesus choosing his disciples is not analogous to God's offer of eternal life.
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Were the disciples chosen before the foundation of the world?

Please define the following.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.
 
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OIC1965

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OIC1965 said:
Were the disciples chosen before the foundation of the world?

Please define the following.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God.
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Did Judas Iscariot have a choice? How about Pharoah in Exodus?

Yes, they had a choice. They chose according to the dictates of their hearts and nature, and God hardened them in it. He gave them over to reprobation.

Yet Judas was foretold by David the Psalmist.

God does not fit inside the boxes we make for Him.

So I take this as a warning to me. 1 Corinthians 10:11.
 
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OIC1965

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EleventhHour said:
....People choose to believe correct?
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Yes, as long as you remember that...

For by grace you are saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves, it is the GIFT OF GOD.

Both salvation and faith are the gift Paul is speaking of, because he uses a neuter pronoun, which sums up the whole phrase as being a gift.
 
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OIC1965

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OIC1965 said:
Yes, as long as you remember that...

For by grace you are saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves, it is the GIFT OF GOD.

Both salvation and faith are the gift Paul is speaking of, because he uses a neuter pronoun, which sums up the whole phrase as being a gift.
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Correction. Grace and faith resulting in salvation are gifts of God.
 
VCO

VCO

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CherieR said:
Hello VCO, I think in some situations grumbling can be a sign of lack of faith. Other times I believe it is due to impatience and not getting one's own way. We are to be about the Lord's way and not our own way.

If you think about the Lord's commands, things he would have us do, much of these are things that are of peace. Things like loving one another, trusting in the Lord, giving thanks, not holding grudges but forgiving one another etc. I see in such instructions help for peace in one's own heart as well as promoting peace with others.
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How much is GOD in Control of everything HE wants done ? ? ?

Isaiah 43:10-13 (HCSB)
10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
12 I alone declared, saved, and proclaimed— and not some foreign god among you. So you are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and I am God.
13 Also, from today on I am He ⌊alone⌋, and none can deliver from My hand. I act, and who can reverse it?”


Luke 12:28-31 (ESV)
28 But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!
29 And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried.
30 For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them.
31 Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.


So if you have TRULY Surrendered control of you life, out of Agape LOVE for HIM, how does that square with the above Scripture, without making you guilty of O you of little faith! ? ? ?

GOD IS THAT MUCH IN CONTROL, but you do not TRUST HIM fully.

Isaiah 46:11 (NIV)
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.


So are you not blaming GOD because HE did not do what you wanted HIM to do ? ? ?

No, I am not criticizing you, it is actually what we got from Pastor this Morning.

Thank you, for providing a perfect spring board, giving you a different view of HOW MUCH IS GOD IN CONTROL OF OUR LIVES.
 
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