I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

[TheDivineWatermark]

Some things were necessarily kept hidden/secret BEFORE the Cross, for the following reason (in the bold in v.8):

1Cor2 -


7 No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,a which He destined for *our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 Rather, as it is written:

“No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no heart has imagined,

what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b


10 But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. [i.e. what we see recorded in Scripture FOLLOWING His death/resurrection/ascension/exaltation--recall, John 16:12-15 "But WHEN..."]




[" *for OUR glory" (and BEFORE [G4253] time began), speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence!])]

 

[OneFaith]

Death by cross was OUR punishment for sinning, Jesus took that punishment in our stead. Sin MUST be paid for- and since we cannot pay it, Jesus paid it for us.

 

[EternalFire]

Thank you for explaining it. I had thought so, but wasn't sure. I think those words were for all of us because he was saying the two greatest commandments are to love God and love thy neighbor and then he elaboraed on it. I dont think you can ignore Jesus' preachings. Oh well.

My pleasure. You are correct.

If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain (I Timothy 6:3-5).

 

[Ann-Marie]

Hello MchaelLone!
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, they had decided they were going to take care of things themselves. I effect they were saying they don't need God, This was when death came into the world; both physical and eternal. That is the "wages of sin". This sin debt is so huge that we can never pay it off. This is not just a matter of "Ok God I get the picture I won't sin any more." It does not matter even if we never sinned once in our lives, the fact that we were born in sin. (Psalm 51:5 (ESV) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.) And if we are born in sin we are sin and are an enemy of God. As an enemy of God we cannot come to god but rather reject God. So, God had no choice but to send his Son who came to us in the form of a little baby. Talking of Psalm 51:5, we, being born in sin, makes us unclean and an enemy of God. But the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. When Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us all of our sin, past present and future have been forgiven. The slate has been swept clean. All our sins have been removed from us through the suffering and death of Jesus on the cross. We no longer have to suffer death because Jesus, our advocate, suffered and died in our stead.

Wow. So brand new babies are sinful. No, I dsagree with Original Sin. It was used as an expalanation for evil BEFORE men understood things like genetics and learning. Many studies show that babies have empathy (they care about what happens to the other) so they are not born bad.

As far as Jesus horrific torture and death by God to the Son of God, is it possible for God to kill God (The Trinity)? Makes no sense to me and never will. It pains God as one who would kill his own Son and somehow this act takes away my sins? Nope.

So what I think is this: Jesus died because the powers that be did not like Him. He was a threat. Later on, to explain why the Son of God died, they came up with the idea that His dying and suffering appeased God (not that is really insane)!

God could have done one of two things:
1) Punish individuals who do wrong which is what I think is going to happen anyway. That is why we talk about Heaven and Hell.
2) Just forgive all eventually (which makes Hell a temporary state).

This way ... people who do "WRONG get punished.
Jesus does not suffer for our sin and then that death pays for every sin for thousands/milliions of years and people doing evil? Isn't suffering in Hell enough?

So:
1) Not born inherently bad or evil
2) Jesus died because the powers that be saw Him & what he taught
3) We are responsible for our sins ... jesus is NOT and it is wrong to think he should be.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE KIND OF LIFE YOU LIVE .. YOU CAN CALL THIS WORKS IF YOU LIKE .. OR YOU CAN CALL IT THE RESULT OF BELIEF IN JESUS AND WHAT HE TAUGHT. BUT EITHER WAY, CHICKEN OR EGG, EACH ONE OF US BEARS A RESPONSIBILITY AND IS CAPABLE OF DOING BETTER THAN WE ARE DOING. ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST AN EXCUSE. PUT IT ALL ON GOD AND SAY I AM A DIRTY RAG. DONT EXPECT ME TO DO BETTER. IT IS EASIER THAT WAY. BUT IT DOESNT CHANGE ME.

who believes this: Many people .. just not Evangelicals or Catholics ....

 

[Ann-Marie]

https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/

Out of the 7 theories of atonement, I believe the the christus victor theory (below) makes the most sense and here it is:

Christus Victor Theory of the Atonement:

Classically, the Christus Victor theory of Atonement is widely considered to be the dominant theory for most of the historical Christian Church. In this theory, Jesus Christ dies in order to defeat the powers of evil (such as sin, death, and the devil) in order to free mankind from their bondage. This is related to the Ransom view with the difference being that there is no payment to the devil or to God. Within the Christus Victor framework, the cross did not pay off anyone, but defeated evil thereby setting the human race free.

Gustaf Aulen argued that this theory of the Atonement is the most consistently held theory for church history, especially in the early church up until the 12th century before Anslem’s satisfaction theory came along.

He writes that

1 The work of Christ is first and foremost a victory over the powers which hold mankind in bondage: sin, death, and the devil.”

2 He calls this theory the “classic” theory of the Atonement. While some will say that Christus Victor is compatible with other theories of the Atonement, others argue that it is not.

3 Though I have found that most theologians believe that Christus Victor is true, even if it is not for them the primary theory of Christ’s death.

 

[Ann-Marie]

My pleasure. You are correct.

If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain (I Timothy 6:3-5).

Thank you! This is a great help. I really appreciate the time you took & the video.
It is, I believe, "the narrow path", that Jesus speaks of.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 3:5,

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."




--now, either Paul is not to be trusted (as being an "Apostle," sent to speak on His behalf and [per Col1:25] "to complete [G4137] the word of God")

--or "me, myself, and I" is "the power thereof"... or NOT!

--or there is Another, who is "the power thereof"... Galatians 2:20 (if Paul is to be trusted, to have conveyed "the word of God," and he is and did) says, "I have been crucified with [G4957 (all one word; that is, WHEN HE WAS [positional/legal truth])] Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [/in] faith, that of the Son of God [i.e. His! ], who loved me, and gave himself for me."



Also, Galatians 3:22 - "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by [ek] faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

... and Galatians 5:22-23 -

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit [i.e. HIS! (not mine, to somehow "muster up")] is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


... and Galatians 3:11 -

"Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, because "The righteous will live by [ek] faith." "



[how's that, again??]

 

[BrianFochler]

Hello MchaelLone!
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, they had decided they were going to take care of things themselves. I effect they were saying they don't need God, This was when death came into the world; both physical and eternal. That is the "wages of sin". This sin debt is so huge that we can never pay it off. This is not just a matter of "Ok God I get the picture I won't sin any more." It does not matter even if we never sinned once in our lives, the fact that we were born in sin. (Psalm 51:5 (ESV) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.) And if we are born in sin we are sin and are an enemy of God. As an enemy of God we cannot come to god but rather reject God. So, God had no choice but to send his Son who came to us in the form of a little baby. Talking of Psalm 51:5, we, being born in sin, makes us unclean and an enemy of God. But the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. When Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us all of our sin, past present and future have been forgiven. The slate has been swept clean. All our sins have been removed from us through the suffering and death of Jesus on the cross. We no longer have to suffer death because Jesus, our advocate, suffered and died in our stead.

 

[EternalFire]

Thank you! This is a great help. I really appreciate the time you took & the video.
It is, I believe, "the narrow path", that Jesus speaks of.

You're most welcome.

Amen! And few there be who find it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

PUT IT ALL ON GOD AND SAY I AM A DIRTY RAG. DONT EXPECT ME TO DO BETTER. IT IS EASIER THAT WAY. BUT IT DOESNT CHANGE ME.

2 Corinthians 3:18 [but read it in its entire context... the entire chapter and what it is speaking about there (see esp. vv.14-15)]

"And we all having been unveiled in face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord [i.e. the risen, ascended, glorified, and exalted Lord], are being transformed into the same image, FROM glory TO [/unto] glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ vv.7-11 -

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather [/more] glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness [ *G1343 - dikaiosynēs ] exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.





[quoting from BibleHub]

*1343 dikaiosýnē (from 1349 /díkē, "a judicial verdict") – properly, judicial approval (the verdict of approval); in the NT, the approval of God ("divine approval").

1343 /dikaiosýnē ("divine approval") is the regular NT term used for righteousness ("God's judicial approval"). 1343 /dikaiosýnē ("the approval of God") refers to what is deemed right by the Lord (after His examination), i.e. what is approved in His eyes.

[end quoting]

 

[Bbrdrd]

Wow. So brand new babies are sinful. No, I dsagree with Original Sin. It was used as an expalanation for evil BEFORE men understood things like genetics and learning. Many studies show that babies have empathy (they care about what happens to the other) so they are not born bad.

As far as Jesus horrific torture and death by God to the Son of God, is it possible for God to kill God (The Trinity)? Makes no sense to me and never will. It pains God as one who would kill his own Son and somehow this act takes away my sins? Nope.

So what I think is this: Jesus died because the powers that be did not like Him. He was a threat. Later on, to explain why the Son of God died, they came up with the idea that His dying and suffering appeased God (not that is really insane)!

God could have done one of two things:
1) Punish individuals who do wrong which is what I think is going to happen anyway. That is why we talk about Heaven and Hell.
2) Just forgive all eventually (which makes Hell a temporary state).

This way ... people who do "WRONG get punished.
Jesus does not suffer for our sin and then that death pays for every sin for thousands/milliions of years and people doing evil? Isn't suffering in Hell enough?

So:
1) Not born inherently bad or evil
2) Jesus died because the powers that be saw Him & what he taught
3) We are responsible for our sins ... jesus is NOT and it is wrong to think he should be.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE KIND OF LIFE YOU LIVE .. YOU CAN CALL THIS WORKS IF YOU LIKE .. OR YOU CAN CALL IT THE RESULT OF BELIEF IN JESUS AND WHAT HE TAUGHT. BUT EITHER WAY, CHICKEN OR EGG, EACH ONE OF US BEARS A RESPONSIBILITY AND IS CAPABLE OF DOING BETTER THAN WE ARE DOING. ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST AN EXCUSE. PUT IT ALL ON GOD AND SAY I AM A DIRTY RAG. DONT EXPECT ME TO DO BETTER. IT IS EASIER THAT WAY. BUT IT DOESNT CHANGE ME.

who believes this: Many people .. just not Evangelicals or Catholics ....

You've got a lot of things mixed up. It absolutely pleased God to see Christ suffer, but not for the suffering's sake. The reality is that sin stains and defiles everything that it touches and that corruption must be addressed. For this purpose a temporary system of blood sacrifices was given but they never truly sufficed since they didn't completely remove the defilement. Ultimately the only thing that could completely remove that defilement was God Himself shedding His blood to cleanse us once and for all, and in that cleansing God is pleased with Jesus' death.

You're right that the common teaching that we are all woefully sinful and Jesus removes the culpability for our sin is incorrect, especially as it takes Isaiah 64 which is a call to Israel to abandon their idolatry as an excuse that all humanity cannot please God through their actions. Our culpability is addressed through the cross in a different faculty, though, as we must first repent before accepting Jesus as our Lord. In that two-fold decision to abandon what we believed was right and wrong and take on Jesus' direction for our life our sin is at once forgiven and our culpability retained. By acquiesing to God's righteousness we learn what goodness truly is and the weight of our sins is given up so God can forgive and rework us as He sees fit.

 

[Kolistus]

Hello Michael, and Welcome to this forum. I will give you an answer in plain English.

1. The crucifixion of Christ is rooted in the character of God. God is absolutely holy, righteous, and just. All laws have penalties when they are violated. And when God's laws have been violated, the penalty is death (which includes the Second Death). Just as the death penalty applies to heinous crimes, the death penalty applies to sins against God (even if they are sins against men).

2. Ever since Adam disobeyed God, all human beings have violated the Ten Commandments. Therefore all mankind is under a death sentence. And had God done nothing, every human being would be eternally separated from Him in Hell (which is the Second Death). That is what God's holiness and righteousness demand.

3. But because God is also merciful and grace, He provided a SUBSTITUTE for mankind. And that substitute was none other than His only begotten Son. God planned from the very beginning to have Christ take all the sins and guilt of the world upon Himself, and pay the full penalty for sins through His crucifixion and the shedding of His blood. And because Christ is both God and Man, He paid that penalty in full and then declared "It is finished". And because His sacrifice for sins was perfect, Christ arose from the dead after three days and three nights. Thus He is a living Savior seated at the right hand of God.

4. God's absolute justice demanded that the penalty for sins be paid in full. Only after that could God offer grace, mercy, and pardon to all those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But the second condition for salvation is repentance -- a total turning away from sin and evil and idols. That is what God expects from those who are saved by grace.

5. No man can pay the penalty for his own sins since that would be eternal separation from God. Neither can any man earn his way to Heaven by his own good deeds, since they would not be sufficient. That is why God designed his perfect plan of salvation, so that none would face Hell. However, those who reject Christ and refuse to obey the Gospel will face their just punishment.

Good response! What about the argument of "Why cant God just forgive us when we repent?" Someone asked this in this thread and I can only think of "That is not how God designed it" but I think that is a weak response. Is there any biblical reason for why blood is needed to forgive? We don't need blood to forgive other humans, so why does God need it?

Life for life? Life is in the blood? Could that be the answer? I dont know, but I believe what the Bible says. I am of the school of thought where I do not believe I have to understand all the innerworkings, not to say they do not interest me, they do greatly but I won't be sad if I don't get it all.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Life for life? Life is in the blood? Could that be the answer?

That is definitely a part of the answer, for "the life of the flesh (body) is in the blood". Christ not only gave His life an offering for sin, but He also made His soul an offering for sin, and He also shed His blood for the remission (forgiveness) of sins, since "without the shedding of blood THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SINS".

Just as human laws require the death penalty for heinous crimes (particularly murder), God's laws demand that the death penalty be paid in full before there can be forgiveness of sins. This is God's absolute justice.

But there was more than physical death involved at the cross, since the Bible speaks of "the Second Death" (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire). Christ took all that punishment upon Himself, and we know this because He hung on the cross for three dark hours, and also cried "My God, my God, which hast thou forsaken me?" Everyone should read and study Isaiah 53 very carefully, since it covers all of this. And because Jesus is God, He could pay that full penalty through His (1) sufferings, (2) death, and (3) shed blood.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Hebrews 1:6-9
King James Version


6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
+++
GOD IS always fair and does everything right.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I'm way late to this topic, but found I wanted to answer anyway.
The LIFE is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11

God had demanded blood sacrifice from the beginning for the atonement of sin.
Adam and Eve tried to cover their guilt and shame from God, but they chose a poor cover up. A man made solutions for sin and guilt never work. Fig leaves of religious works will never cover the guilty sinner, God, however, chose skins to cover Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21). "And the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."

I have heard that this may have been a lamb. Only God knows for sure, but it was surely a precursor of sacrifices to come, first as a remedy for the sins of Israel with the blood of animals, then the Lamb of God which was the PERFECT sacrifice made "once for all" (all sin of believers) ending the animal sacrifice and instituting a new covenant of grace.

ASV Hebrews 10:14-19
14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,
17. And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

 

[Edgar82]

Death was necessary to redeem us into life because the law is, life for life. The law had to be fulfilled God is a lawful being it's His nature, nobody including Himself had choice in the matter so He came down and did what He had to do.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

As for the kind of death and exact details of Jesus' life and death, the reasons are really cosmic and run vastly through the whole Bible so it's hard to give a one liner type of answer.
Every thing has a significance, from soldiers casting lots for His robes (like we get His robes as lot = inheritance), to being crucified (love God symbolized by the vertical line of the cross and love one another with the horizontal, and killing the flesh upon these two commandments), from the mark on Cain's forehead when God spared Cain (letter tav, aka the cross), to Moses lifting up the brazen serpent in the wilderness for their healing, so Jesus had to also be lifted up, and as it is a curse to hang on a tree, He did it to lift the curse. It's because the world gives the innocent bitterness to drink in this world (evil and affliction) that Jesus had to also drink gall and vinegar while dying. The whole Word of God had to be fulfilled and He couldn't deviate from the truth.

Amazing insight!!

 

[garee]

I'm way late to this topic, but found I wanted to answer anyway.
The LIFE is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11

God had demanded blood sacrifice from the beginning for the atonement of sin.
Adam and Eve tried to cover their guilt and shame from God, but they chose a poor cover up. A man made solutions for sin and guilt never work. Fig leaves of religious works will never cover the guilty sinner, God, however, chose skins to cover Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21). "And the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."

I have heard that this may have been a lamb. Only God knows for sure, but it was surely a precursor of sacrifices to come, first as a remedy for the sins of Israel with the blood of animals, then the Lamb of God which was the PERFECT sacrifice made "once for all" (all sin of believers) ending the animal sacrifice and instituting a new covenant of grace.

ASV Hebrews 10:14-19
14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,
17. And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

I would offer even though the life of the flesh is in the blood, spirit life is not literal blood. It must be poured out at the foot of the altar to show it returns to the dust from which it was formed of. It was used as a demonstration with Jesus the Son of man his blood returned to dust. . Revealing unseen Spirit life of the Father he gave in jeopardy of one own Spirit life.

The verse (Genesis 3:21). "And the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them." It would seem to represent the glory of God had departed previously being in the very presence of God who is Light. Not having the glow that Moses had when in the presence. he covered it with a veil. They like Adam and Eve saw their nakedness' and desired Moses cover the glory of God .

 

[Benadam]

This has probably been mentioned

In order to conquer death for us, Jesus had to be killed and His soul enter the state that all other human souls enter who are destined to die. That re-opened for us the destiny God intended for us.