When are we saved ?

[fredoheaven]

But who's faith is referenced in Eph 2:8? It is by the faith of Jesus Christ, Gal 2:16. The natural man's faith is in mankind, and his accomplishments. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

Well, you haven't once again put it in a proper context, and that's what I am always seeing of you. Ephesians 2 centered around "quickening" vv. 1,5 because were dead in trespasses and sins, talking about their time past and by the nature as children of wrath vv 2, . In v.4 talks about 3, the mercy and God's great love as manifested in Christ or that through Christ, God is able to show this grace. Well, the subject is salvation and how can one possessed it or owned it. It says, not of works, not of yourselves it is the gift of God and this is what Paul is saying, is the gift of salvation which harmonizes Paul in Romans 6:23 and not the gift of faith which is the result of after trusting Christ. Later in that Epistle talks about the fruit of the Spirit which is faith. This means the subject faith is the "fruit" and not a "gift". I wonder, if there is no differentiation of the two words as you are trying to tweak them which are not.

 

[OIC1965]

So i assume your saying there are some that God has not chosen to be saved ? before they even sinned ? before the fall even ? And you were chosen to be saved out side of the cross and resurrection?

Those who do not believe are not chosen/elect. Election/choosing never refers to those who perish. The last question is outrageous.

 

[OIC1965]

So the foreseen faith model ? Wesleyan Arminian ?

The Biblical model.

Did God know you would believe before you were born? Yeah or nay?

 

[throughfaith]

The Biblical model.

Did God know you would believe before you were born? Yeah or nay?

Its irrelevant if God knew i would believe or not . We know God is Omniscient. But we're told we are only saved in him . Were not told we are chosen to be saved . not once ,so I can't believe this gnostic idea first introduced by Augustine and proper gated by Calvinists and Armins ever since the fourth century. i believe Gods knowledge is not causative. And that we are ONLY known as sons After being in him . Its about Jesus and being in him . Not a gnostic election Were everything is about us . Salvation is through faith not election.

 

[OIC1965]

So you don't exist . Your not even born , but some how God has chosen you in Jesus to be holy and blameless. Is this your position ? is this your idea of conditional election ?

Did God know you would believe before He made the world?

 

[BenjaminN]

Some members of the assebly of God, under Kingship of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah in the Church of today, are also adopted Israel covenant people, like Ruth, King David's Moabite great-grandmother (who did not descended from Jacob at all), who told her deceased husband's mother, Naomi the Israelite:


Ruth 1 (ESV)

2 The name of the man was Elimelech and the name of his wife Naomi, and the names of his two sons were Mahlon and Chilion. They were Ephrathites from Bethlehem in Judah. They went into the country of Moab and remained there.

16 But Ruth said, "Do not urge me to leave you or to return from following you. For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham is the father of Ishmael and Isaac.

Isaac is the father of Esau (Edomites which God "hates") and Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel, because he struggled with God, and persevered)

Jacob is the father of the 12 tribes of Israel, who became divided after the united kingdom's King Solomon fell into idol worship and collected 666 talents of gold in one year from the then united kingdom of the Israelites.

After King Solomon's death the kingdom of Israel split into the:

Northern kingdom of Israel (whose people today are the non-Jews in the Church regathered, formerly scattered lost tribes of Israel) where the ten northern tribes were under the half tribe of Ephraim son of Joseph, one of the 12 sons of Jacob; and the

Southern kindom of Judah (whose people today from the time of the Judean southern kingdom, were referred to as Jews, of which Messianic Jews are part of today's Church)

Abraham had Many children And many wives. Come On man

 

[throughfaith]

Did God know you would believe before He made the world?

knowing is not causative.

 

[throughfaith]

Some members of the assebly of God, under Kingship of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah in the Church of today, are also adopted Israel covenant people, like Ruth, King David's Moabite great-grandmother (who did not descended from Jacob at all), who told her deceased husband's mother, Naomi the Israelite:


Ruth 1 (ESV)

2 The name of the man was Elimelech and the name of his wife Naomi, and the names of his two sons were Mahlon and Chilion. They were Ephrathites from Bethlehem in Judah. They went into the country of Moab and remained there.

16 But Ruth said, "Do not urge me to leave you or to return from following you. For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.

Genuine question. How did you get involved with this group / organisation you are teaching?

 

[OIC1965]

Its irrelevant if God knew i would believe or not . We know God is Omniscient. But we're told we are only saved in him . Were not told we are chosen to be saved . not once ,so I can't believe this gnostic idea first introduced by Augustine and proper gated by Calvinists and Armins ever since the fourth century. i believe Gods knowledge is not causative. And that we are ONLY known as sons After being in him . Its about Jesus and being in him . Not a gnostic election Were everything is about us . Salvation is through faith not election.

Just as We were chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world, the purpose being that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

It doesn’t get any plainer than that.

So If God is Onniscient, why do you reject the plainest and most natural interpretation of Ephesians 1 and wrestle with it so?

 

[fredoheaven]

We are saved when we believe the Gospel. The TRUE Gospel. For we must worship God in Spirit and in TRUTH. The Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you beyond the shadow of doubt. You will KNOW the TRUE GOSPEL, and when you do, you will KNOW when you were saved without question.
When you know the truth, the truth will make you free. Free of confusion or doubt, free to love God and desire good works for his glory. Out of pure love free of legalism. Out of love because of what he did for you because he first loved you.
What is the truth that promotes true saving faith?
Anyone?

It is found in the scripture of truth. John 17:17
It comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17
It is personified by Christ John 14:6
The promise of the Spirit of truth will guide us, led us through the scripture of truth John 16:13

 

[OIC1965]

knowing is not causative.

True. Knowing is not necessarily causative.

That’s also a quote I heard from many Arminians. Since you are prone to throw out the baby with the bath water, I’m surprised you used an Arminian argument

 

[throughfaith]

Did God know you would believe before He made the world?

At least I know where your coming from now . You basically hold to the Wesleyan Arminan view. Which is based on the error of the T in Tulip . Its why Arminism is wrong for all the same reasons Calvinism is wrong . Its starts with philosophy about the will and God s knowledge. Rather than scripture.

 

[throughfaith]

True. Knowing is not necessarily causative.

That’s also a quote I heard from many Arminians. Since you are prone to throw out the baby with the bath water, I’m surprised you used an Arminian argument

Is knowledge causative? Do you hold to determinism?

 

[OIC1965]

At least I know where your coming from now . You basically hold to the Wesleyan Arminan view. Which is based on the error of the T in Tulip . Its why Arminism is wrong for all the same reasons Calvinism is wrong . Its starts with philosophy about the will and God s knowledge. Rather than scripture.

Total depravity has nothing to do with God’s foreknowledge. God has perfect foreknowledge and chose the way Paul said He did whether total depravity is true or not

 

[OIC1965]

Is knowledge causative? Do you hold to determinism?

I thought you don’t care about philosophy. Those are philosophical questions, not biblical questions.

Anyways, I already answered the first question. And the second is purely philosophical.

 

[throughfaith]

Just as We were chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world, the purpose being that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

It doesn’t get any plainer than that.

So If God is Onniscient, why do you reject the plainest and most natural interpretation of Ephesians 1 and wrestle with it so?

1) because I realise what Paul is writing about , Why he's writing, the context, the central theme of the book , his audience. The fact they are already in him . They are already saints in him .
2 ) I know what we are predestined to ,and its not to be saved . Paul is telling these believers they are predestined to the Adoption.
3 ) I keep reading to eph 2
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were WITHOUT CHRIST being ALIENS from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, having no hope ,without God in the world
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

4) I read of an ' elect ' people who DONT BELIEVE , ISRAEL . But they are still GODS ELECT . because the word simply refers to service and purpose.
A calminian with a ' me ' centered westernised philosophy sees the word Chosen and this triggers a doctrine thats pre packaged before hand in the mind to no longer see anything else.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Dude. I'd be real careful of limiting God, and putting Him in a box.

It's utterly ridiculous to think God doesn't know ALL. ALL that happens, ALL we do, say and think. ALL.

Isaiah 46:10

King James Version

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


God inhabits eternity. He is not only OUTSIDE the time domain, He invented it!

I watched here recently a most interesting video from Chuck Missler where he expounded that everything that has mass is subject to time, in other words time is a physical property. You and others might enjoy it, so I'm using this opportunity to share.

 

[throughfaith]

Total depravity has nothing to do with God’s foreknowledge. God has perfect foreknowledge and chose the way Paul said He did whether total depravity is true or not

So why do you need to push what you believe Gods knowledge is ? Whats the big deal? is this just an aside that Paul needs to tell them? " er thanks Paul for labouring on about God knowing we would choose him . Thanks ,how does that help or encourage us ? " .I could know my child will pick icecream over dirt does that make me God ?

 

[OIC1965]

1) because I realise what Paul is writing about , Why he's writing, the context, the central theme of the book , his audience. The fact they are already in him . They are already saints in him .
2 ) I know what we are predestined to ,and its not to be saved . Paul is telling these believers they are predestined to the Adoption.
3 ) I keep reading to eph 2
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were WITHOUT CHRIST being ALIENS from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, having no hope ,without God in the world
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

4) I read of an ' elect ' people who DONT BELIEVE , ISRAEL . But they are still GODS ELECT . because the word simply refers to service and purpose.

Romans 11:7. Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. THE ELECT OBTAINED IT, and the rest were hardened.