Have You Received the Holy Ghost Since You Believed?

[wolfwint]

I honestly am not sure what you are saying here.

In my post (#442) I said they were ALSO accounted worthy of baptism but should have more directly stated that speaking in tongues was the evidence that Peter used to determine that these Gentiles JUST RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST. (quote shown here

Sorry the word " you " should be the word " ,knew" in the sentence you marked.

 

[Guojing]

Your reply addresses only one aspect, and leaves your assumptions and changes of meaning shrouded in darkness. It is not a sufficient replacement for either (much less both) of the two statements I'd presented for review.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Okay let me try then

I understand that you are not suggesting that Acts 2:4 OR 2:6 are either one limited to the Assyrian language EVEN THOUGH you say the original text in Isaiah 28 IS speaking specifically about the Assyrian language.

Your first part is correct, but your 2nd point is redundant since Paul was not talking about Acts 2 event since that happened before he was even saved. The original text in Isa 28 was referring to Paul's point in 1 Cor 14, and not Acts 2.

I would further say that you are not suggesting that Acts 2:4 OR 2:6 are either one using language in a way the hears cannot understand EVEN THOUGH you say the original text in Isaiah 28 IS speaking specifically about the Assyrian language being used in a way NOT understood by the hearers.

I am presenting the view that tongues, whether Acts 2, or 1 Cor 14, are known foreign languages.

If one never studied those foreign languages, to him, it’s naturally non understandable if he hears them being spoken.

I hope I have delivered to you, what you would like me to do?

 

[KelbyofGod]

Okay let me try then



Your first part is correct, but your 2nd point is redundant since Paul was not talking about Acts 2 event since that happened before he was even saved. The original text in Isa 28 was referring to Paul's point in 1 Cor 14, and not Acts 2.



I am presenting the view that tongues, whether Acts 2, or 1 Cor 14, are known foreign languages.

If one never studied those foreign languages, to him, it’s naturally non understandable if he hears them being spoken.

I hope I have delivered to you, what you would like me to do?

Yep, that's much greater detail. Thank you.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[wolfwint]

Part of the problem in this quote is the INCORRECT ASSUMPTION that the word "believer" can ONLY mean people who are going to make it to heaven.

The other main problem (express within your parenthesis) seems to be the incorrect assumption that presenting someone with truth automatically creates belief and agreement.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Why is this a Problem? Of course I mean with the word believer saved people who received the Holy Spirit and with another term: which are bornagain.
And of course your claim, that every believer who has the Holy Spirit is able to speak in tongues is wrong. And not support from the scripture. The Base of your claim seems to be acts 2, 10 and 19. But these events can also be seen as that what I have mentioned in my post. Again: To make a rule from this events are not suppportet from the scripture.

 

[KelbyofGod]

@Guojing ,
And my being specific wasn't an attempt to say "You have a huge contradiction" because I understand your consistency of concept even if the individual details SEEM to conflict.

I just wanted to prove that what looks like a conflict on paper might not actually be a conflict of concept. Because I know my concepts can also look that way.

I hope that made sense.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Why is this a Problem? Of course I mean with the word believer saved people who received the Holy Spirit and with another term: which are bornagain.

The problem is that "Believer" and "Born Again" do not mean the same thing. Can you see the difference?

It's like the difference between "Rectangle" and "Square". One is more specific than the other.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

@wolfwint
Also I need to step away for an hour or more. I will read your posts I return.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[notuptome]

For ONE, I didn't claim he did.
For TWO, he doesn't particularly act to full the passions to be consumed by ANYONE's flesh. <-- That's why he uses it to explain why EVEN BELELIEVERS' prayers go unanswered at times.

Either way I praise God that at least you used some scripture this time.

James 4:1-3 KJV
From whence come wars and fightings among you [the 12 tribes, his brethren]? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Well while you are licking lollipops and riding unicorns over cotton candy rainbows consider what Jesus promised those who live for Him.

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Consider that all the apostles who walked with Jesus on this earth were persecuted and killed for His names sake.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Wansvic]

The truth is, that even in the Apostles time not all believer got the gift of speaking in tongues. Nor was it taught that speaking in tongues is the proof that someone got the Holy Spirit.

Please provide scripture that shows another form of evidence that an individual has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wansvic]

Not objecting, just stating that the wind doesn't blow where it wants. If you don't believe that then what can I say, but I'll tell you the reason why I would say that and you don't even have to tell the me reason you canst know whence it cometh, and whither it goeth.

1. The Gospel of Mark (4:39-41)

​

39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.​

40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?​

41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?​

2. The testimony of the son of David (Eccl. 1:6)

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.​

My original comment pertained to the fact that the Holy Ghost cannot be seen but it can be heard. Jesus used the wind comparison below in an effort to help Nicodemus understand the concept.

Consider what Jesus told Nicodemus, just as the wind, the Holy Ghost/Spirit cannot be seen but it can be heard:
“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8

 

[Wansvic]

There was no revelation of the mystery at Acts 10 yet, and scripture was not completed.

None of them knew 1 Cor 15:1-4 that people can be saved by just believing in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

Peter himself did not preach that to Cornelius, instead he said in Acts 10 that one need to "work righteousness" in order to be accepted, which is in line with what he will later write to Israel in 1 Peter 4:12-19.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Without Paul's revelations and the completed scriptures, Israel needed signs to believe that someone was saved, so that was a period of time where God confirmed that gentiles can now be saved, without Israel, without the law, thru them speaking in tongues, which astonished all the Jewish believers present.

If you recall the final verse of Mark

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The Lord was confirmed the preached word, or the spoken word, with signs. it was necessary since they did not have the completed scriptures yet.

But once scripture is completed and Paul's revelation of the mystery completely written down, we are no longer to look for signs. We believe one is saved the moment he believes in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

That is why using Acts for salvation doctrine is so problematic, it was a transitional time period between Israel's program and the program of the Body of Christ.

Peter's initial instruction to all groups of people; Jewish, Gentile and Samaritans is clearly reflected in Paul's message and actions recorded in scripture:

Acts 18:6-8
6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.



Acts 19:1-10
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.


There is one gospel presented to the Jew first and afterward the Gentile as Paul stated in Romans:

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Paul also stated there is but one faith:

Eph 4:3-5
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[wolfwint]

The problem is that "Believer" and "Born Again" do not mean the same thing. Can you see the difference?

It's like the difference between "Rectangle" and "Square". One is more specific than the other.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Well, in my understanding I dont see an different between being bornagain and an believer in Jesus Christ.

 

[wolfwint]

Please provide scripture that shows another form of evidence that an individual has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

No, you have to prepare scripture. Because you claim it.

 

[Wansvic]

Well while you are licking lollipops and riding unicorns over cotton candy rainbows consider what Jesus promised those who live for Him.

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Consider that all the apostles who walked with Jesus on this earth were persecuted and killed for His names sake.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Resorting to ridicule speaks volumes about one's character or lack thereof. A better approach would be to back up your understanding with actual scripture.

As far as your noting the persecution scripture, the actual word will be the final judge as to who it pertains to.

 

[Wansvic]

No, you have to prepare scripture. Because you claim it.

You state that a person receives the Holy Spirit the moment they believe the gospel message. You should be able to back that up with scripture since the word states that in order for a concept to be established there must by 2 or more scriptures stating the same truth.

Paul himself made it clear that people don't receive the Holy Spirit the moment they believe in the gospel message. (Acts 19:1-6)

Peter and John had to be sent for in order for the Samaritan people to receive the Holy Ghost days after hearing and believing the gospel message and getting water baptized. (Acts 8:12-17)

 

[Wansvic]

No, you have to prepare scripture. Because you claim it.

Please read the very first post.

 

[wolfwint]

You state that a person receives the Holy Spirit the moment they believe the gospel message. You should be able to back that up with scripture since the word states that in order for a concept to be established there must by 2 or more scriptures stating the same truth.

Paul himself made it clear that people don't receive the Holy Spirit the moment they believe in the gospel message. (Acts 19:1-6)

Peter and John had to be sent for in order for the Samaritan people to receive the Holy Ghost days after hearing and believing the gospel message and getting water baptized. (Acts 8:12-17)

I did receive the Holy Spirit after hearing and believing the Gospel.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I did receive the Holy Spirit after hearing and believing the Gospel.

I also received the Holy Spirit after believing.
I think confusion happens, because the apostles used to lay hands on people. They would lay hands after people got baptized. By this the people received the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit.

@Wansvic
It is not even possible to confess faith in Jesus without the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So, in declaring our faith in Jesus, we do it by the Holy Ghost.

Here is another Scripture second witness... in Acts 10. Here, Peter is preaching the Gospel to Cornelius' household:

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [because they believed what they were hearing... apparently?]
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

So, here's the example of people in the Bible receiving the Holy Spirit upon hearing and believing - immediately. They only get baptized afterwards.

 

[Guojing]

Peter's initial instruction to all groups of people; Jewish, Gentile and Samaritans is clearly reflected in Paul's message and actions recorded in scripture:

Acts 18:6-8
6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.



Acts 19:1-10
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.


There is one gospel presented to the Jew first and afterward the Gentile as Paul stated in Romans:

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Paul also stated there is but one faith:

Eph 4:3-5
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

I already stated what peter believed was needed to be accepted by God in acts 10:34-35

That is not the gospel anyone should preach now

 

[KelbyofGod]

Well, in my understanding I dont see an different between being born again and an believer in Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your honesty.

Please understand that what is say next is clarification and NOT criticism. My intent is to show some ways that "Born Again" and "Believer" are NOT the same. Ok, Here goes:


I noticed this time that you added a qualifier to the word "believer". You added "in Jesus"...

You clarified "an believer...IN JESUS" because the word "believer" (without the qualifier) is vague and COULD mean something else. Instinctively you know this (which is why you added the qualifier).

"Believer" by itself doesn't really convey what the person is believing in or exactly what the person's beliefs ARE. Believer just means someone who BELIEVES... SOMETHING. What they "believe" could be completely WRONG. For example: A person can be a BELIEVER...In SATAN.

But notice that you don't need to add a qualifier to the term "Born Again". Born Again is more specific. For example: It is impossible to be BORN AGAIN...in SATAN.

Are you with me so far?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby