Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[Budman]

I have answered it repeatedly. Your attack is an example of weak Exegesis. The corner is yours. And from that seat you take peoples posts and twist them into your own weird belief system and then attack them for thinking your way.
And afterward the easy way out of that is to attack me and those others whose posts you do that to as if I/we are the one(s) that do not understand.
And that part is partly correct as far as my view of your pretzel exegesis tactics.

Quite a ridiculous smoke screen you threw up there. The simple fact that there are examples in scripture that show people were saved apart/before baptism shatters you whole case. How do you explain those away? You, of course, explain them away by ignoring them.

I'll never ever understand the mindset that denies baptism is in any way at all related to salvation.

Again, those examples I gave from scripture prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

You are literally saying a person can beg Jesus for forgiveness, believing He died on the cross, shed His blood for their sins, and rose from the dead - but they are not saved until they get wet. So much for deathbed conversions, last minute martyrs, and all who confess Christ but die before they get into the baptismal tub. In your mind, they would be as lost as they ever were, and would go straight to hell.

A prime example of the foolishness of your thinking involves a group of gentiles Peter preaches to in Acts 10. He is astonished they have received the Holy Spirit just as the believing Jews had.

He says: " “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

They had already received the Holy Spirit which means THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED!

So, did baptism in water cause them to receive the Holy Spirit?

NO.

They were saved the moment they believed the gospel.

You are with water the way the Judaizers were with circumcision.

Baptism is the same as the Lord's Supper. We are instructed to do them, but neither is a requirement of what actually saves.

 

[soggykitten]

Quite a ridiculous smoke screen you threw up there. The simple fact that there are examples in scripture that show people were saved apart/before baptism shatters you whole case. How do you explain those away? You, of course, explain them away by ignoring them.

You should worry about making false statements against my actual post.
I'll say it again because you aren't able to grasp it. I NEVER SAID SALVATION SAVES! ANYONE WHO CLAIMS I DID SO AFTER THIS SHOUT OF TRUTH IS A BOLD FACED LIAR IN NEED OF JESUS!

As for your doctrine, I have no idea what it is. When it dismisses baptism itself it is a false one. Maybe you should seek after your own soul and stop bearing false witness against Christians.
Since you didn't get what I said the rest of your post is addressing your own thoughts. I'm not responsible for those, thank God.
Maybe put down the Bud and you can see your way to the truth of God in Christ. Rather than seeking to abrogate his word as you see fit.

 

[Budman]

I see the need for continual forgiveness

So, you are literally saying all of your sins weren't paid for on the cross.

But if they choose not to repent - that's willfully turning away from God. God lets them go if they choose to do so.

Lets them go where?

The only ones God counts as "sinless" (in spite of unintentional sins throughout life) are those who sincerely repent of them. He forgives all those who sincerely repent.

Forgiveness is a one-time event. There are zero examples in the Bible of anyone, after conversion, having sins still attributed to them. If that were so, Jesus would have to come back and die for those sins. Because the Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. If what you say is true, if one dies without confessing/repenting of sins they committed that day, they would certainly go to hell. God is not going to allow a single person into heaven with a single sin on their record. Not one.

Either they were all paid for and forgiven, or none of them were.

Your understanding of repentance is flawed. When one repents, they have faith in something to begin with, (either their good works, or something else) and now puts their faith in something new. When one turns to Jesus, they have repented from their old faith, and now has a new faith. They have repented from their old confidence, and now has a new confidence. A change of mind from the old to the new. It's a pivot, a 180 degree turn to put their confidence, their faith, their belief, in Jesus Christ.

 

[Budman]

I NEVER SAID SALVATION SAVES!

Um...what?

As for your doctrine, I have no idea what it is. When it dismisses baptism itself it is a false one. Maybe you should seek after your own soul and stop bearing false witness against Christians.
Since you didn't get what I said the rest of your post is addressing your own thoughts. I'm not responsible for those, thank God.

Did I ever say baptism wasn't important? Nope.

I say, and the Bible certainly proves, that baptism has nothing to do with one's salvation. Period.

Maybe put down the Bud

Now who is bearing false witness? Are you implying I'm a drinker?

My handle is "Budman" because Bud is my nickname. So you may want to check yourself, pal.

Rather than seeking to abrogate his word as you see fit.

You must have been looking at your reflection when you typed that.

 

[BenjaminN]

God's predestined gift of faith, by his predestined gift of grace:

The test is always, is faith present and bearing fruit, if the faith is our faith, and not the predestined God-given faith from God-given grace, see how one can loose their faith in God's word: Some never believed; some hear with joy, believe for a while and in times of testing fall away; some believe but are choked by the cares, riches and pleasures of life and their fruit does not mature. Those that believe eternally, their seed fell on the good soil of their hearts and minds, they hold fast to God's word in an honest and good heart in perseverance, and they bear fruit with patience continually till the end.

Luke 8 (ESV)

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Forgiveness is a one-time event. There are zero examples in the Bible of anyone, after conversion, having sins still attributed to them. If that were so, Jesus would have to come back and die for those sins.

The above statement is incorrect and seriously in error.

Forgiveness for sins before conversion does not automatically cancel the need to recognize present sins by Christians. The case of Ananias and Sapphira is a clear example of sins being attributed after conversion. And when the apostle John speaks about "the sin unto death" he is addressing Christians, and refers to the sinning person as a "brother" in Christ.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:16,17)

We need to understand that while the penalty for sins was paid fully at the cross (1) there must be repentance for the remission of sins (Acts 3:19), and for those who are already saved, there must be confession and repentance for present sins (1 John 1:6-10). The Lord's Prayer also makes it clear that those who are Christians need to ask forgiveness for present sins.

The false doctrine of Hyper-Grace claims that once a person is saved, there is no need to address present sins. But Paul makes it perfectly clear that Christians must examine themselves, and those who fail to do so may face serious consequences (1 Corinthians 11).

 

[OIC1965]

So, you are literally saying all of your sins weren't paid for on the cross.



Lets them go where?



Forgiveness is a one-time event. There are zero examples in the Bible of anyone, after conversion, having sins still attributed to them. If that were so, Jesus would have to come back and die for those sins. Because the Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. If what you say is true, if one dies without confessing/repenting of sins they committed that day, they would certainly go to hell. God is not going to allow a single person into heaven with a single sin on their record. Not one.

Either they were all paid for and forgiven, or none of them were.

Your understanding of repentance is flawed. When one repents, they have faith in something to begin with, (either their good works, or something else) and now puts their faith in something new. When one turns to Jesus, they have repented from their old faith, and now has a new faith. They have repented from their old confidence, and now has a new confidence. A change of mind from the old to the new. It's a pivot, a 180 degree turn to put their confidence, their faith, their belief, in Jesus Christ.

I don’t know about asking for forgiveness, but 1 John 1:9 teaches us to confess our sins and that confession results in forgiveness and cleansing

Now that is not speaking of repeated justifications, or getting saved againbut rather confession is to maintain unbroken and unrestricted fellowship and communion with God.

 

[Budman]

for those who are already saved, there must be confession and repentance for present sins

Since every sin you and I and every Christian since Christ died was in the future, and all sin has been paid for and forgiven, there is nothing left to ask forgiveness for.

1 John 5:16-17 doesn't mention asking God to forgive any such sin, it's speaking of sparing a brother the results of sins resulting in physical death, not spiritual death. If is impossible for a believer to experience spiritual death because Christ has given all believers His righteousness and have been made spiritually alive with Christ.

Immediately after the Lord's prayer (verses 14 and 15) Jesus says that if one does not forgive the trespasses of another God will not forgive them. Which, if the prayer was meant for Christians and not simply the Jews, contradicts the very idea of grace and total forgiveness for sin.

If any sin debt is still owed by us, we are doomed. Jesus paid our sin debt ONCE, and never will again.

The false doctrine of Hyper-Grace claims that once a person is saved, there is no need to address present sins. But Paul makes it perfectly clear that Christians must examine themselves, and those who fail to do so may face serious consequences (1 Corinthians 11).

It's not "hyper" grace - it's simply grace. Unmerited favor. And if you can name me a single instance in the Bible where any born again believer lost their salvation because of sinning, I'll come over to your side.

 

[Lanolin]

a lot of people dont really do a 40 day fast, churches traditionally do this (around lent) to prepare christians for ministry.
when you have churches that teach that you just believe and thats it they are really short changing the gospel. Rememeber Jesus stuck around after resurrection for 40 days too before he gave believers the holy spirit.

It was to give people time to repent.

 

[Budman]

Now that is not speaking of repeated justifications, or getting saved againbut rather confession is to maintain unbroken and unrestricted fellowship and communion with God.

Can you show me from the New Testament where one loses fellowship or communion with God because of sin? If that were so, most believers would pop in and out of fellowship with God countless times during the day.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Um...what?



Did I ever say baptism wasn't important? Nope.

I say, and the Bible certainly proves, that baptism has nothing to do with one's salvation. Period.



Now who is bearing false witness? Are you implying I'm a drinker?

My handle is "Budman" because Bud is my nickname. So you may want to check yourself, pal.



You must have been looking at your reflection when you typed that.

Salvation saves only if one receives it the way God's Word says to receive it. There are so many who don't do that. It's sad.

So, you are literally saying all of your sins weren't paid for on the cross.



Lets them go where?



Forgiveness is a one-time event. There are zero examples in the Bible of anyone, after conversion, having sins still attributed to them. If that were so, Jesus would have to come back and die for those sins. Because the Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. If what you say is true, if one dies without confessing/repenting of sins they committed that day, they would certainly go to hell. God is not going to allow a single person into heaven with a single sin on their record. Not one.

Either they were all paid for and forgiven, or none of them were.

Your understanding of repentance is flawed. When one repents, they have faith in something to begin with, (either their good works, or something else) and now puts their faith in something new. When one turns to Jesus, they have repented from their old faith, and now has a new faith. They have repented from their old confidence, and now has a new confidence. A change of mind from the old to the new. It's a pivot, a 180 degree turn to put their confidence, their faith, their belief, in Jesus Christ.

Well, what I see in the scriptures on these things is much different from your way of seeing them. Make sure you know the Lord. It's a big mistake to think one's saved - but then to end up dying without the Lord.

 

[BenjaminN]

I don’t know about asking for forgiveness, but 1 John 1:9 teaches us to confess our sins and that confession results in forgiveness and cleansing

Now that is not speaking of repeated justifications, or getting saved againbut rather confession is to maintain unbroken and unrestricted fellowship and communion with God.

Matthew 6 (ESV)

9 Pray then like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread, 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[Jackson123]

If is impossible for a believer to experience spiritual death because Christ has given all believers His righteousness and have been made spiritually alive with Christ.

Hi Budman, I have questions
A. this statement start with if, but it seem not a question, am I correct?

B.believer not experience spiritual death
What is your definition of believer?
1. Believer is a person that believe Jesus as God no matter what he does
Example: believe jesus but, have 2 girl friend and slept with both, stealing etc

2. Believer is a person that believe Jesus as god and strive to obey His teaching, fell guilty every time violate His teaching, confess and try to make the same mistake.

 

[Jackson123]

Hi Budman, I have questions
A. this statement start with if, but it seem not a question, am I correct?

B.believer not experience spiritual death
What is your definition of believer?
1. Believer is a person that believe Jesus as God no matter what he does
Example: believe jesus but, have 2 girl friend and slept with both, stealing etc

2. Believer is a person that believe Jesus as god and strive to obey His teaching, fell guilty every time violate His teaching, confess and try to make the same mistake.

Correction on 2
Confess and try not to make the same mistake.

Mistake mean something need correction

For example, murder is a mistake in biblical teaching, need to be correct, repent and stop murder.

That's mean if we as Christian do murder, we must regret and not do it again.

 

[Jackson123]

1 Peter 2

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

That We being dead to sin.

It seem jesus die on the cross cause us being dead to sin.

I believe being dead to sin mean not doing sin anymore.

I myself still doing sin.

This verse seem to encourage me to try dead to sin.

The verse continue say,
Being dead to sin should lives unto righteousness

It seem Holy live must be the result or fruit of belting believe to Jesus.

I believe keep repent every time we do sin is needed to reach Holy live.

Repent, mean change or regret every time we do sin. If we never regret doing sin, how we stop doing sin.
And I believe if we not regret God not forgive us.

 

[awelight]

Can you show me from the New Testament where one loses fellowship or communion with God because of sin? If that were so, most believers would pop in and out of fellowship with God countless times during the day.

While I agree, that Christ's sacrifice for sin was once and for all; and all sin is under the blood for those who are saved; and ones Salvation cannot be lost because of sin...... fellowship may indeed be broken. Additionally, sin may cause ones physical death. God may remove you from this world for lack of repentance and continual sin.

First, fellowship broken between believers:

1Cor 5:9-13 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.

After seeking forgiveness with the brethren... restoration of the fellowship:

2Co 2:8-11 Wherefore I beseech you to confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye are obedient in all things. But to whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also: for what I also have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, for your sakes have I forgiven it in the presence of Christ; that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Second, fellowship with God and believers broken because of improper respect for the Lord's table:

1Co 11:29-32 For he that eateth and drinketh, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discern not the body. For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep. But if we discerned ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Thirdly, fellowship with God broken:

- If a believer is sinning, fellowship is broken, for God can have no fellowship with sin. Just a the Father could have no fellowship with the Son during the punishment of sin. Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? He turned away because of the imputation of sin, not because Jesus Himself had sinned.
- If a believer is a liar and speaks not truth, fellowship is broken because God who is Truth has no company with the lie. The believer must get right and speak that which is God's Truth.
- If a believer is walking in darkness, fellowship is broken because God who is light has no fellowship with darkness. The believer must repent and come from the path of darkness and walk with the Lord in light.

Just a few examples of reasons for broken fellowship. There is a huge difference between our Lord promising to always be with us and we being in fellowship with Him.

 

[Jackson123]

While I agree, that Christ's sacrifice for sin was once and for all; and all sin is under the blood for those who are saved; and ones Salvation cannot be lost because of sin...... fellowship may indeed be broken. Additionally, sin may cause ones physical death. God may remove you from this world for lack of repentance and continual sin.

What do you mean by broken fellowship ?

Fellowship between me as sinner to God or fellowship between me and other believer?

 

[Jackson123]

Just a few examples of reasons for broken fellowship. There is a huge difference between our Lord promising to always be with us and we being in fellowship with Him.

What do you mean by broken fellowship ?

Fellowship between me as sinner to God or fellowship between me and other believer?

Sorry you have been answer this question

It seem you believe salvation don't need fellowship with God. Am I correct?

It seem you believe a person may have broken fellowship with god but save.

I may make wrong conclusion, but the way you say, it seem you may have broken fellowship with God but save. Am I correct?

Do you believe broken fellowship with god same as no fellowship ?

 

[OIC1965]

Can you show me from the New Testament where one loses fellowship or communion with God because of sin? If that were so, most believers would pop in and out of fellowship with God countless times during the day.

I did not say “ lose fellowship or communion”. I said in order for it to be unbroken or unhindered.

Here is a little clarification. I do not think confession changes God’s thoughts toward us. Confession changes our thoughts towards Him.

Sin tends to defile our conscience and dull us. It tends to make us feel alienated. Confession our sins to God is good for us. It brings healing to damaged hearts.

Also, Benjamin and Awelight made good points on this.

You cannot ignore the fact that confession brings forgiveness and cleansing. 1 John 1:9 says so, and it is clearly written to Christians.

Of course, it is not being saved again. Salvation happens once.

 

[OIC1965]

Can you show me from the New Testament where one loses fellowship or communion with God because of sin? If that were so, most believers would pop in and out of fellowship with God countless times during the day.

1 John 1:5 -6. People who falsely believe they’re walking with God

1:7. The Blood of Christ constantly cleanses us from sin. Present active indicative verb

1:8. No one is sinless

1:9. Confession brings forgiveness and cleansing.

1:10. All have sinned

2:1. Jesus stands as our advocate with the Father when we sin.

2: 2. He had made the necessary propitiation for sin

so we see that we not only have the ministry of the cross ( propitiation). We also have continual cleansing from the blood and Jesus intercession as our Advocate and High Priest. Justified by His death, saved by His Life.