Propitiation – The Sacrifice that Atoned

[ForestGreenCook]

Deliverence also means to be rescued the regenerated people have this because they were saved from their destiny of hell because of their life of sin. It is not by God;s grace we accept his gift your right about that it is by his grace it is given but we still have to accept it.

Look at all throughout the bible God always gave humanity a choice to obey him or not, with adam and eve he told them what would happen if they ate from the fruit of the tree but he never forced them not to he gave them a choice to not it even when they ate from the fruit God still left humanity free will and even now he offers a gift to humanity but one has to make the choice to accept it or not, if it was all decided beforehand then it is not a gift at all and his grace is limited Christs sacrifice was limited the power of his blood and his love is limited

The issue I have with people who believe that not all can recieve the gift of salvation and that a select people only were predestined to be saved is that they by doing so are saying that the sacrifice of God's one and only son was not good enough for the whole world only those who before they were even born were to be saved while others who by no choice of their own and though they did nothing wrong before they took their first breath in this life were already destined for eternal damnation

Honestly I just don't understand the logic behind this kind of thinking this certainly isn't the loving father I have come to know

Blain, have you ever thought of the possibility of how weak and defeated God would be, if he wants all mankind to live with him in heaven, but lets mankind have premenance over his will, or how ineffective Jesus's blood was that it could not save those that he shed it for? Is that the kind of God that you want to serve?

Would not he be much more of a loving Father, if he pulled you up out of the miry clay, and set your foot upon a rock, and established your goings? Would he not be much more of a loving Father, even if you did not accept him, and he still would take you to heaven to live with him?

By God's foreknowledge he saw that no one would seek him, and never would seek him, unless he entervined, which he did by electing some of humanity, and changed them to want to love and honour him. He would still be a just God, because he could have left them all to everlasting hell.

Which God seems more loving to you?

 

[Blain]

Blain, have you ever thought of the possibility of how weak and defeated God would be, if he wants all mankind to live with him in heaven, but lets mankind have premenance over his will, or how ineffective Jesus's blood was that it could not save those that he shed it for? Is that the kind of God that you want to serve?

Would not he be much more of a loving Father, if he pulled you up out of the miry clay, and set your foot upon a rock, and established your goings? Would he not be much more of a loving Father, even if you did not accept him, and he still would take you to heaven to live with him?

By God's foreknowledge he saw that no one would seek him, and never would seek him, unless he entervined, which he did by electing some of humanity, and changed them to want to love and honour him. He would still be a just God, because he could have left them all to everlasting hell.

Which God seems more loving to you?

It isn't weakness to give your children the choice to be with you or not it's love. so easily he could force us to love him but he doesn't this is because he desires a willing child not a controlled one. A wise king knows that forcing your will on your people will cause rebellion you will be viewed as a tyrant and by nature father is anything but that.

Father sees the inner most parts of mankind he sees our desires our sins he know everything we have done good or bad but he also sees what we could be if we choose to follow him. The problem with pre election or predestination is that on one hand for those saved they were destined for greatness before they were born on the other hand those who were destined for eternal damnation were always destined for that. However both these points act as a set in stone eternal destination but all through out the bible one occuring thing you see is the choice to obey it is always a choice very rarely does he ever force his will on people he wanrs them and tells them what they should where to go how to do it but the choice is always theirs for better or for worse

however he did give us free will unlike the two options with predestination he allows room for us to choose him or not otherwise he would not give constant warnings of what happens if we didn't he draws us to him but we have the choice to go to him or not. So it is not weakness nor does it make the sacrifice of Jesus weak in any way to give a choice to his children to follow him or not it is wisdom strength and love

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It isn't weakness to give your children the choice to be with you or not it's love. so easily he could force us to love him but he doesn't this is because he desires a willing child not a controlled one. A wise king knows that forcing your will on your people will cause rebellion you will be viewed as a tyrant and by nature father is anything but that.

Father sees the inner most parts of mankind he sees our desires our sins he know everything we have done good or bad but he also sees what we could be if we choose to follow him. The problem with pre election or predestination is that on one hand for those saved they were destined for greatness before they were born on the other hand those who were destined for eternal damnation were always destined for that. However both these points act as a set in stone eternal destination but all through out the bible one occuring thing you see is the choice to obey it is always a choice very rarely does he ever force his will on people he wanrs them and tells them what they should where to go how to do it but the choice is always theirs for better or for worse

however he did give us free will unlike the two options with predestination he allows room for us to choose him or not otherwise he would not give constant warnings of what happens if we didn't he draws us to him but we have the choice to go to him or not. So it is not weakness nor does it make the sacrifice of Jesus weak in any way to give a choice to his children to follow him or not it is wisdom strength and love

I am not denying that God has given mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here in this world, But God did not leave it up to man's choice for their eternal inheritance. God, by his foreknowledge saw that none would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2. All mankind choose not to seek God, which made it necessary for him, by his sovereign grace (without man's acceptance) to choose a portion of humanity to change their stony heart to a heart of flesh, so that their conscience could be pricked to feel guilty when they did not follow his commandments.

We see a perfect example of this in Acts 7:54, when Steven, in his sermon, was accusing some Jews of causing Jesus to be crucified, and they were "cut to the heart" (stony heart), and stoned Steven to death, and when Peter preached the same sermon to some Jews at pentecost, and they were "pricked in their heart" (heart of flesh). and ask, what must we do?

This is the difference in the regenerated man, and the unregenerate man.

Saved=delivered. There is an eternal deliverance, and there are many deliverances that the regenerated person receives as he sojourns here in this world. Failure to distinguish the difference leads many of God's regenerated children to believe that it is up to them to save (deliver) themselves eternally.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It isn't weakness to give your children the choice to be with you or not it's love. so easily he could force us to love him but he doesn't this is because he desires a willing child not a controlled one. A wise king knows that forcing your will on your people will cause rebellion you will be viewed as a tyrant and by nature father is anything but that.

Father sees the inner most parts of mankind he sees our desires our sins he know everything we have done good or bad but he also sees what we could be if we choose to follow him. The problem with pre election or predestination is that on one hand for those saved they were destined for greatness before they were born on the other hand those who were destined for eternal damnation were always destined for that. However both these points act as a set in stone eternal destination but all through out the bible one occuring thing you see is the choice to obey it is always a choice very rarely does he ever force his will on people he wanrs them and tells them what they should where to go how to do it but the choice is always theirs for better or for worse

however he did give us free will unlike the two options with predestination he allows room for us to choose him or not otherwise he would not give constant warnings of what happens if we didn't he draws us to him but we have the choice to go to him or not. So it is not weakness nor does it make the sacrifice of Jesus weak in any way to give a choice to his children to follow him or not it is wisdom strength and love

God loves those that he choose, and chastens them, out of that love, when they are disobedient. When God chastens them it pricks their fleshly heart to repent. When they repent, and God forgives them, they have just witnessed a deliverance (salvation) that is not eternal.

 

[Blain]

I am not denying that God has given mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here in this world, But God did not leave it up to man's choice for their eternal inheritance. God, by his foreknowledge saw that none would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2. All mankind choose not to seek God, which made it necessary for him, by his sovereign grace (without man's acceptance) to choose a portion of humanity to change their stony heart to a heart of flesh, so that their conscience could be pricked to feel guilty when they did not follow his commandments.

We see a perfect example of this in Acts 7:54, when Steven, in his sermon, was accusing some Jews of causing Jesus to be crucified, and they were "cut to the heart" (stony heart), and stoned Steven to death, and when Peter preached the same sermon to some Jews at pentecost, and they were "pricked in their heart" (heart of flesh). and ask, what must we do?

This is the difference in the regenerated man, and the unregenerate man.

Saved=delivered. There is an eternal deliverance, and there are many deliverances that the regenerated person receives as he sojourns here in this world. Failure to distinguish the difference leads many of God's regenerated children to believe that it is up to them to save (deliver) themselves eternally.

So you believe that there is more than one kind of salvation? Deliverance is a word that means to deliver from rescue or free from salvation basically means the same thing . There is one true gospel and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ he never made any indication that there are two separate salvation's and even after his death and resurrection everyone who saved was saved because they believed in him and in the gospel.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where it speaks of the distinction of regenration and salvation it just seems like a made up excuse to defend pre eclection, I am not saying this is what you are doing of course but that just seems like that to me.

 

[Blain]

God loves those that he choose, and chastens them, out of that love, when they are disobedient. When God chastens them it pricks their fleshly heart to repent. When they repent, and God forgives them, they have just witnessed a deliverance (salvation) that is not eternal.

Oh I see you were talking about that kind of deliverance. Well perhaps some would disagree with me but I only believe in one salvation and that salvation is when we accept Jesus as our Lord in our hearts. The way I see it his blood was more than enough and I do repent when I mess up but this is not what I would call deliverance or salvation that would imply that sin has power over us which it doesn't.
I repent because yes I do feel guilt but I wouldn't feel that guilt if I was not saved already.

To me calling repentance salvation is in fact pinning Jesus to the cross again, I mean we are called holy and righteous kings queens and priests we are clothed in righteousness all because his blood was shed for us. But if we think we need to be saved from our sin and repent to be saved from it then we are not understanding the true power of the blood.

You know I recently learned a very important lesson. For my entire 8 years of salvation every time I would sin fall down or stray I would attack myself I would call myself a filthy disgusting sinner lower than the dirt that worms eat and I truly felt that way about myself because I didn't understand the power of his blood and what it meant to be in his grace. I would be in tears every night begging him to forgive me begging him to not let me go to hell because of my failings I was crippled inside

Only recently have I come to truly understand what it means to be saved by his blood and I am learning to not attack myself I am learning to not believe the whispers the enemy speaks about me and ever since then I am not hurting inside anymore it doesn't feel like a dagger is piercing my soul I wanted for so long to be saved from the chains I placed on myself to be free of my sin and it was like Jesus was asking me how many times must I die for you?

And it turns out I was free from the beginning I just believed the lies that the enemy had told me

 

[throughfaith]

Just to prompt some thought . If like some believe that people will go to hell to pay for their sins . How is this the case since Jesus paid for all sins ?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Oh I see you were talking about that kind of deliverance. Well perhaps some would disagree with me but I only believe in one salvation and that salvation is when we accept Jesus as our Lord in our hearts. The way I see it his blood was more than enough and I do repent when I mess up but this is not what I would call deliverance or salvation that would imply that sin has power over us which it doesn't.
I repent because yes I do feel guilt but I wouldn't feel that guilt if I was not saved already.

To me calling repentance salvation is in fact pinning Jesus to the cross again, I mean we are called holy and righteous kings queens and priests we are clothed in righteousness all because his blood was shed for us. But if we think we need to be saved from our sin and repent to be saved from it then we are not understanding the true power of the blood.

You know I recently learned a very important lesson. For my entire 8 years of salvation every time I would sin fall down or stray I would attack myself I would call myself a filthy disgusting sinner lower than the dirt that worms eat and I truly felt that way about myself because I didn't understand the power of his blood and what it meant to be in his grace. I would be in tears every night begging him to forgive me begging him to not let me go to hell because of my failings I was crippled inside

Only recently have I come to truly understand what it means to be saved by his blood and I am learning to not attack myself I am learning to not believe the whispers the enemy speaks about me and ever since then I am not hurting inside anymore it doesn't feel like a dagger is piercing my soul I wanted for so long to be saved from the chains I placed on myself to be free of my sin and it was like Jesus was asking me how many times must I die for you?

And it turns out I was free from the beginning I just believed the lies that the enemy had told me

I understand your feelings, and the process that you went through. As new born babes in Christ we began our spiritual journey with very little knowledge of the gospel, and gradually grow into maturity by studying, and hearing the gospel as it is taught to us.

There is a deliverance, that is not eternal, we receive as regenerated babes in Christ, when we come unto a knowledge of the righteousness of God, the gospel. Romans 10:1 is an example of this

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Just to prompt some thought . If like some believe that people will go to hell to pay for their sins . How is this the case since Jesus paid for all sins ?

He only paid for the sins of those that God gave him, and he says that he will not lose any of them.

 

[Blain]

I understand your feelings, and the process that you went through. As new born babes in Christ we began our spiritual journey with very little knowledge of the gospel, and gradually grow into maturity by studying, and hearing the gospel as it is taught to us.

There is a deliverance, that is not eternal, we receive as regenerated babes in Christ, when we come unto a knowledge of the righteousness of God, the gospel. Romans 10:1 is an example of this

What do you mean exactly with regenerated and how this would be a non eternal salvation?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What do you mean exactly with regenerated and how this would be a non eternal salvation?

Newly reborn babes in Christ already have the security of their eternal deliverance (salvation). In the process of growing into maturity, a few of them, by study, and hearing the gospel preached, come unto a knowledge of the righteousness of God, contained in the gospel. This is also expressed in the scripture that says, "many are called, but few are chosen (to be revealed the full knowledge of the gospel). And again in the scriptures that talk about "the remnant". Also in Matt 7 of the straight gate.

 

[throughfaith]

He only paid for the sins of those that God gave him, and he says that he will not lose any of them.

The bible doesn't say that .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The bible doesn't say that .

John 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me. John 6:38, That of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing.

 

[throughfaith]

John 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me. John 6:38, That of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing.

Why are you quoting the Old testament in light of John 12.32 ?Why are you working backwards to John 6 . The cross took place after John 6 ? Should we go back further to before Jesus arrives as a baby ?

 

[Blain]

Newly reborn babes in Christ already have the security of their eternal deliverance (salvation). In the process of growing into maturity, a few of them, by study, and hearing the gospel preached, come unto a knowledge of the righteousness of God, contained in the gospel. This is also expressed in the scripture that says, "many are called, but few are chosen (to be revealed the full knowledge of the gospel). And again in the scriptures that talk about "the remnant". Also in Matt 7 of the straight gate.

Oh I see. Well I would have to disagree with you on this especially in regards to many are called but few are chosen this is often a misunderstood definition of what Jesus was speaking about in this parable.
To understand the parable you first have to understand Jewish weddings. Those who are invited to the wedding are called called ones in the traidtional weddings these called ones would always wear wedding garments that were pure white to symbolize the pureness of the union between the bride and groom.

This wedding and wedding feast is speaking of the wedding of the lamb the called ones first were the jews but they refused the invite then it speaks about how the king (God the father) who had prepared a great weeding feast for his son(Jesus) was enraged and counted them not worthy of attendence and aso he commanded his servants to invite the remnant all who were left on thye roads and everywhere else ( the gentiles) and it then goes on to speak about the king seeing a man there with no wedding garment which is to represent in this case being without sin which Jesus took away from us when he died on the cross and this man represents those who try to enter the kingdom without Jesus and the purity of repentance all those who are Christian by title only and this man was sent out to suffer and be killed representing being banished to hell the second the death.

The straight and narrow math you mention is Jesus he is the gate the way the truth and light and no man comes to father without going through Jesus because only he and his sacrifice can save us and we come to him with repentence and devoting our lives and hearts to him

This is what these parables are saying it isn't speaking of people being saved but falling away

 

[throughfaith]

Blain, have you ever thought of the possibility of how weak and defeated God would be, if he wants all mankind to live with him in heaven, but lets mankind have premenance over his will, or how ineffective Jesus's blood was that it could not save those that he shed it for? Is that the kind of God that you want to serve?

Would not he be much more of a loving Father, if he pulled you up out of the miry clay, and set your foot upon a rock, and established your goings? Would he not be much more of a loving Father, even if you did not accept him, and he still would take you to heaven to live ?

By God's foreknowledge he saw that no one would seek him, and never would seek him, unless he entervined, which he did by electing some of humanity, and changed them to want to love and honour him. He would still be a just God, because he could have left them all to everlasting hell.

Which God seems more loving to you?

Never start with a philosophy about Gods will , the love of God , sovereignty, fairness arguments ect

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Just to prompt some thought . If like some believe that people will go to hell to pay for their sins . How is this the case since Jesus paid for all sins ?

Think that question has been answered many times....Jesus paid the price sins for all time (of believers: past, present, future)

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Oh I see. Well I would have to disagree with you on this especially in regards to many are called but few are chosen this is often a misunderstood definition of what Jesus was speaking about in this parable.
To understand the parable you first have to understand Jewish weddings. Those who are invited to the wedding are called called ones in the traidtional weddings these called ones would always wear wedding garments that were pure white to symbolize the pureness of the union between the bride and groom.

This wedding and wedding feast is speaking of the wedding of the lamb the called ones first were the jews but they refused the invite then it speaks about how the king (God the father) who had prepared a great weeding feast for his son(Jesus) was enraged and counted them not worthy of attendence and aso he commanded his servants to invite the remnant all who were left on thye roads and everywhere else ( the gentiles) and it then goes on to speak about the king seeing a man there with no wedding garment which is to represent in this case being without sin which Jesus took away from us when he died on the cross and this man represents those who try to enter the kingdom without Jesus and the purity of repentance all those who are Christian by title only and this man was sent out to suffer and be killed representing being banished to hell the second the death.

The straight and narrow math you mention is Jesus he is the gate the way the truth and light and no man comes to father without going through Jesus because only he and his sacrifice can save us and we come to him with repentence and devoting our lives and hearts to him

This is what these parables are saying it isn't speaking of people being saved but falling away

No it isn't

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Not all people are God's children....God adopts His children Eph 1
God does not love everyone....He hate Esau in the womb Malachi 1
God, as our Creator, has absolute right and authority over who we are Romans 9

 

[GraceAndTruth]

It may be more digestible to say that the Messiah is only the mercyseat/atonement for the citizens of His kingdom...but anyone can become grafted into His kingdom if they choose to abide. This is how the Messiah is available to the world while remaining exclusively for His people: only His people receive the gift, but all have an opportunity to become His people.

Then to go further...

A citizen MUST actively take their sins to the High Priest and confess them whenever committed, daily, with a daily sacrifice, else they weren't ceremonially cleansed of those sins...then as tradition goes, the sins that were confessed daily throughout the year were stored in the tabernacle until the Day of Atonement - the most Holy day of the year - when the mercyseat and furnishings were finally cleansed by the High Priest with blood and the sins of the kingdom were symbolically removed.

Yet with the Messiah, the sacrifice only needed to happen once and no longer yearly...but the process remains the same on the citizen's side until perfect: They must confess their daily sins to be forgiven of them and to have their conscience cleansed with Messiah's blood during the process of sanctification.

"And this is how you are to pray...'and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...'".

Like anyone could choose to be a Jew?
God does all the choosing all the time.
Jews to be a nation apart for God
Some Jews withing that nation to a particular calling
Chose before the foundation of the world those who would be predestined for salvation
Predestined the cross
and on and on.