Can we learn from the craziness of the old testament?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#21
This is one example were Paul used the OT
Galatians 4:22–23 (AV): For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
The argument he makes here I. Galatians 4 is amazing, that the true meaning of the literal, real events of the life of Abraham are prophecy and types of the covenants to come much later, and ultimately of Christ.

This is not a point to be overlooked, and it's what I was speaking about earlier: this is how we should understand the Torah and prophets and poetry, that its primary purpose and interpretation is about the person and work of the Messiah!!! :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#22
He is The Truth

If we're not seeing Him in it we're not seeing The Truth of it, the real truth
 

AlmondJoy

Active member
Oct 31, 2020
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#23
the bible is not "craziness" it is the word of God that is forever settled
 

AlmondJoy

Active member
Oct 31, 2020
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#24
Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Jesus is in the old testament.....concealed
Jesus is in the new testament......revealed

no matter where you cut or open the bible it will bleed with the blood of the son of God!

certainly not "craziness"
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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#25
the bible is not "craziness" it is the word of God that is forever settled
Just a tip on the thread, there is a reply button and it will let the other person know you are talking about what they wrote. Glad you could join in!
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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#26
Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Jesus is in the old testament.....concealed
Jesus is in the new testament......revealed

no matter where you cut or open the bible it will bleed with the blood of the son of God!

certainly not "craziness"
I would not say concealed sounds like you are throwing out the OT. Paul did not nor the early Christians have a NT it was only the OT to teach from.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#27
Paul did not nor the early Christians have a NT it was only the OT to teach from.
That is not exactly correct. The Gospels and the epistles were being circulated in the churches by about 60 AD.
 

AlmondJoy

Active member
Oct 31, 2020
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#28
I would not say concealed sounds like you are throwing out the OT. Paul did not nor the early Christians have a NT it was only the OT to teach from.
thanks for the tip.
i certainly don't want to give the idea that i believe in throwing away the Old Testament.

by concealed i meant all of types and shadows pointed us to Christ. Thanks
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#29
Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Jesus is in the old testament.....concealed
Jesus is in the new testament......revealed

no matter where you cut or open the bible it will bleed with the blood of the son of God!

certainly not "craziness"
Peter and the 11 preached Jesus according to prophecy

Paul preached Jesus according to the mystery

I wish more Churches would teach the difference
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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#30
That is not exactly correct. The Gospels and the epistles were being circulated in the churches by about 60 AD.
Can you show me where Paul used them though to teach from. I only see him quoting the OT if you can I stand corrected. ;)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#31
I would not say concealed sounds like you are throwing out the OT. Paul did not nor the early Christians have a NT it was only the OT to teach from.
But the people of the OT didn't know it was the blood of Christ that the animal blood symbolized. They only knew it required a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. So in a way the truth wasn't made clear to them.

The idol worshippers did sacrifice, also to their gods. They said it was to feed the gods Made the Lord angry when they did that, and he really gave them what for in the first chapter of Isaiah.

The OT gives wonderful examples of truth, like the example of how the sacrificial system worked as a preview of how Christ works. It tells us a lot about Christ. If we say "Christ, forgive us" and don't give our sins to Him for Him to get rid of them for us but aim to keep them, then the first chapter of Isaiah would apply to us for we wouldn't be using the sacrifice that Christ made for us in the right way.
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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#32
I would not say concealed sounds like you are throwing out the OT. Paul did not nor the early Christians have a NT it was only the OT to teach from.
But the people of the OT didn't know it was the blood of Christ that the animal blood symbolized. They only knew it required a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. So in a way the truth wasn't made clear to them.

The idol worshippers did sacrifice, also to their gods. They said it was to feed the gods Made the Lord angry when they did that, and he really gave them what for in the first chapter of Isaiah.

The OT gives wonderful examples of truth, like the example of how the sacrificial system worked as a preview of how Christ works. It tells us a lot about Christ. If we say "Christ, forgive us" and don't give our sins to Him for Him to get rid of them for us but aim to keep them, then the first chapter of Isaiah would apply to us for we wouldn't be using the sacrifice that Christ made for us in the right way.
I was not agreeing with him just trying to see his point more clearly.
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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#33
Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Jesus is in the old testament.....concealed
Jesus is in the new testament......revealed

no matter where you cut or open the bible it will bleed with the blood of the son of God!

certainly not "craziness"
I read that like “concealed” = like, He canceled the party! 🎉 ? When in fact you were saying “”concealed””
“Concealed behind a wall”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#34
Can you show me where Paul used them though to teach from. I only see him quoting the OT if you can I stand corrected. ;)
Why don't you dig a little deeper instead of expecting others to do your work?
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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#35
[
Why don't you dig a little deeper instead of expecting others to do your work?
Fair enough, I thought you may of had evidence.
Early Christians would go to synagogues to hear the word of God. I.e. Old Testament. It would be amazing to have heard these things first hand or second hand I.e. the gospels or eyewitness accounts read in the church. Not that today is any less wonderful in its own way.
Main reason was to learn from the Old Testament. But I’m sure reading these eyewitness accounts (NT )to the congregation where a nice refreshment here and there. That’s why witnessing is so important today! Sharing a testimony in church. “Living epistles.”
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#36
Can you show me where Paul used them though to teach from. I only see him quoting the OT if you can I stand corrected. ;)
Good question, I have seen people saying that John must have already understood Paul letters before he wrote 1 John, since John lived on after Paul has already passed away.

Same reasoning for James
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
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Southeastern USA
#37
Some things in the old testament seem impossible to learn from. It seems strange to kill animals for the forgiveness of sin, to not mix up what God created, even fabrics, to make cuts on the body to announce belonging to the Lord, to send a goat into the wilderness, the duties of the high priest. This is just a few of the strangeness of the old testament.

The old testament uses the physical world as symbols of the spiritual world. Today the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts directly. Is it worth plowing through the symbolism to learn more about our Lord?
You can’t completely understand the New Testament and all it’s nuances without understanding the Old Testament. The Old Testament sets up all the patterns that come to fruition in the new testament.

For example how can you understand why revelation says there is no ocean in the new earth? The Old Testament tells us.

What was the significance of the second and final temple being destroyed? The Old Testament tell us.

What was the significance of the Barabbas (whose name was also Jesus ) and what did he represent to the Jews as a insurgent , a revolutionary warrior against Rome and what it meant for him to be picked to be freed over Jesus?

What’s the hyperlinking of Pentecost and demon possession in the New Testament to Babel and nephilim in the Torah?

All these questions can only be answered by understanding the Torah.
 

AlmondJoy

Active member
Oct 31, 2020
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#38
Peter and the 11 preached Jesus according to prophecy

Paul preached Jesus according to the mystery

I wish more Churches would teach the difference
I agree....
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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faithlife.com
#39
Good question, I have seen people saying that John must have already understood Paul letters before he wrote 1 John, since John lived on after Paul has already passed away.

Same reasoning for James
Do have an example? That sounds interesting> I know the #1 reason the Canon (Bibe) was put together was that all "Agree " the writings agree with each other, seeing how they had meany writings to choose from for example Apocrypha. and the King James bible leaves it out. some say they agree and other say no. I believe the King James is fine by its self but I think i enjoyed reading them none the less.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#40
Do have an example? That sounds interesting> I know the #1 reason the Canon (Bibe) was put together was that all "Agree " the writings agree with each other, seeing how they had meany writings to choose from for example Apocrypha. and the King James bible leaves it out. some say they agree and other say no. I believe the King James is fine by its self but I think i enjoyed reading them none the less.
My view is that whether or not John or James understood the revelation of the mystery that was revealed first to Paul is irrelevant.

You cannot get salvation by faith alone in the death burial resurrection of Christ, nor Jews and gentiles being equal in the same body, nor the rapture of the Body of Christ, anywhere in the letters of James, Peter and John.

The Holy Spirit did not want them to write about those, he wanted them to write doctrine for the nation of Israel during Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation.

You can find them in 1 Peter 4

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved, which is not what Paul would instruct us in the Body of Christ.

Next John

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John is urging Israel to abide in him in 1 John 2, what does he meant by abide? He explains in 1 John 3, those who sin not are the ones that abide in him.

So if one takes the mark of the beast, that is a clear indication of not abiding in him.

He will only be ashamed when Jesus finally returns at his 2nd coming for Israel. There will be no future salvation for him to expect, as John said in vs8, he is of the devil.

This is in-line with what is stated in Revelations 14:9-12.

Contrast to Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; and 1 John 2 and 3

And finally James 5

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The rich who refuse to pool their money with the common pot, as the rest of the Jews were doing in Acts 4:32, showing that they trust in riches, are especially vulnerable to taking the mark of the beast, which will condemn them, no matter what they believed about
Jesus.