PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[BenjaminN]

There's nothing there about being unable to believe the Gospel when presented ?

When you believe the Gospel, you were endowed with God's salvation by grace through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 10 (ESV)

6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Faith is, or faith is not there - it is not attained by oneself - it is the gift of God of salvation by grace through faith. That we may belief the gospel, follows our inheritance of faith.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,


1 Corinthians 1 (ESV)

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

the word OF faith that we proclaim

Faith comes by what? hearing hearing what ? Saved through !!!!!!!faith.

 

[throughfaith]

When you believe the Gospel, you were endowed with God's salvation by grace through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The " not of your own doing " is not of works . You will not find anywhere in the NEW testament where faith is a work .

 

[throughfaith]

Sorry buddy I am going to kind of pgy back off your reply here I didn't see his post on that . @throughfaith I am actually shocked you even asked that did you not recieve a new heart when you were saved?

Do you have any verse which says we are given a new heart that doesn't have Israel attached to it ? Come on now its a bible study ?

 

[throughfaith]

Sorry buddy I am going to kind of pgy back off your reply here I didn't see his post on that . @throughfaith I am actually shocked you even asked that did you not recieve a new heart when you were saved?

So David a worshipper and follower of God already was praying for what ? Think about it...He's ALREADY a believer.

 

[Magenta]

So you hold to ' regeneration precedes faith " aka Calvinism?

Affirming that God makes it possible for us to believe, which you disagree with, does not make me a Calvinist.

I am not Arminian either

 

[BenjaminN]

Yep exactly it's really that simple I don't understand why man kind has complicate things it's a simple formula

Yes God is fully in control, he is almighty.


Job 40 (ESV)

6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: 7 "Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. 8 Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right? 9 Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his? 10 "Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor. 11 Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him. 12 Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low and tread down the wicked where they stand. 13 Hide them all in the dust together; bind their faces in the world below. 14 Then will I also acknowledge to you that your own right hand can save you.

 

[Blain]

Do you have any verse which says we are given a new heart that doesn't have Israel attached to it ? Come on now its a bible study ?

If you refuse to listen to the verse already given to you about this why would you listen to another?
Ok let me try this another way when you were saved you were born again yes? When you were born again your thoughts changed from earthly thinking to heavenly thinking you sought to know God you found yourself as you grew in him more loving more patient you began to produce the fruits of the spirit right?

Without a renewed heart none of this would have happened

 

[throughfaith]

When you believe the Gospel, you were endowed with God's salvation by grace through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The ' not of works ' is key .

 

[throughfaith]

Affirming that God makes it possible for us to believe, which you disagree with, does not make me a Calvinist.

I am not Arminian either

Good grief what more do you want ? Made Possible? Where do we begin ? in short. Creation , conscience, The law Israel ,apostles The giving of the Son ,the Holy Spirit , The Bible, the Gospel. Is this not enough lol??
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1 .
John 16:8

“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”

 

[BenjaminN]

The " not of your own doing " is not of works . You will not find anywhere in the NEW testament where faith is a work .

Faith is not a work, possession of faith is a saved human being's attribute, determined by God, at the foundation of the world. How did they gain possession of their faith?

 

[Corban]

The oversight is your missing the timeline. John 10 .32 , John 16.8 ,9
John 1.9 . John 20.29
Are all after Mathew 16 , John 6 ect .
And ask your self HOW was this revealed to Peter. Peter SAW Jesus. He Actually SAW things specifically happen. Things the Appostles HEARD , SAW ,EXPERIENCED BY SIGHT .
WE come much later . We are not Peter and the apostles. Its not the time of Mathew 16 or John 6 . A great deal happened after that . Namely the greatest event in the entire history of the cosmos .

16¶For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19¶We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Two things brother.

1. In all my arguments to you, you very seldom counter my points. By dismantling my argument is how you convince.
2. You can't pit one scripture against another. This just makes us Christians a laughing stock, and makes the Bible unreliable. You have to deal with my argument and my proffered scripture. If my posting is too long, just taking one stone out of the wall will still weaken it.

Now, "flesh and blood" encompass all men, except those have been resurrected. To my knowledge, Christ is being preached by men who still possess "flesh and blood". Our Lord's statement is that "NO" - without exception - "flesh and blood", can reveal Christ, even if He is standing right with you raising Lazarus from the dead. This is what happened, isn't it. Within a week of raising Lazarus Israelites were plotting to kill Him for doing just that.

Every man who is ever going to believe in Jesus needs (i) the Holy Spirit to convict him of coming judgment, he (ii) needs a Christian to tell him how to escape the effects of judgment, he (iii) needs God to give him the nescessary faith, he (iv) needs God to reveal Who Jesus is, and he (v) needs to be "born OF God", John 1:12-13;

12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

I do not deny the man's part in this matter. I do not deny his intellect and free will. But the MEANS by which a man is saved and has eternal life ARE SUPPLIED BY GOD. I was a snowball headed down to hell. I might hate it. I might disagree with it. I might scream. But unless a stronger One than gravity stops my downward race, and reverses it with His POWER, I am doomed. This should be clear from two very clearly written scriptures.

1. In Romans Chapter 7 we are faced with a man under Law who is zealous for it. He has no option but to fail every time (v.15)
2. In Galatians 5 we have man who has the Spirit in his human spirit, and he fails most of the time (Gal.5:17)

What chance is there of an evil Tree bringing forth good fruit? ... ZERO! He needs God to SUPPLY HIM in every aspect.

 

[BenjaminN]

the word OF faith that we proclaim

Faith comes by what? hearing hearing what ? Saved through !!!!!!!faith.

You can not earn your salvation, by having your own faith, not originating from God, but only from yourself. If you can not give credit to God for your salvation by grace (that you would somehow have attained faith by yourself without Him), are you questioning the might of the Almighty?

 

[throughfaith]

If you refuse to listen to the verse already given to you about this why would you listen to another?
Ok let me try this another way when you were saved you were born again yes? When you were born again your thoughts changed from earthly thinking to heavenly thinking you sought to know God you found yourself as you grew in him more loving more patient you began to produce the fruits of the spirit right?

Without a renewed heart none of this would have happened

Aside from the fact you haven't provided a ' new heart ' verse ( that is not attached to ISRAEL ) let's look at what you say here
////Ok let me try this another way when you were saved you were born again yes? When you were born again your thoughts changed from earthly thinking to heavenly thinking you sought to know God you found yourself as you grew in him more loving more patient you began to produce the fruits of the spirit right?//// Yes AFTER I believed the Gospel and AFTER I recieved the Holy Spirit.

As this verse says .

Eph 1

13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Your presupposition is that regeneration precedes faith which is nonsense to say the least.

 

[Blain]

Aside from the fact you haven't provided a ' new heart ' verse ( that is not attached to ISRAEL ) let's look at what you say here
////Ok let me try this another way when you were saved you were born again yes? When you were born again your thoughts changed from earthly thinking to heavenly thinking you sought to know God you found yourself as you grew in him more loving more patient you began to produce the fruits of the spirit right?//// Yes AFTER I believed the Gospel and AFTER I recieved the Holy Spirit.

As this verse says .

Eph 1

13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Your presupposition is that regeneration precedes faith which is nonsense to say the least.

No what is nonsense is that everyone here has made it clear to you several times over but you just don't understand what their saying and it's like you somehow hear the exact opposite of what everyone is saying and as I said before the only time I found the word regeneration in scripture was linked with the holy spirit and salvation and it also means born again so I will make it simple a regenrated believer is a born again believer do you hate the belief system you so openly speak against that you see it in everything everyone says or do you just purposely not listen and want to argue?

 

[throughfaith]

Two things brother.

1. In all my arguments to you, you very seldom counter my points. By dismantling my argument is how you convince.
2. You can't pit one scripture against another. This just makes us Christians a laughing stock, and makes the Bible unreliable. You have to deal with my argument and my proffered scripture. If my posting is too long, just taking one stone out of the wall will still weaken it.

Now, "flesh and blood" encompass all men, except those have been resurrected. To my knowledge, Christ is being preached by men who still possess "flesh and blood". Our Lord's statement is that "NO" - without exception - "flesh and blood", can reveal Christ, even if He is standing right with you raising Lazarus from the dead. This is what happened, isn't it. Within a week of raising Lazarus Israelites were plotting to kill Him for doing just that.

Every man who is ever going to believe in Jesus needs (i) the Holy Spirit to convict him of coming judgment, he (ii) needs a Christian to tell him how to escape the effects of judgment, he (iii) needs God to give him the nescessary faith, he (iv) needs God to reveal Who Jesus is, and he (v) needs to be "born OF God", John 1:12-13;

12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

I do not deny the man's part in this matter. I do not deny his intellect and free will. But the MEANS by which a man is saved and has eternal life ARE SUPPLIED BY GOD. I was a snowball headed down to hell. I might hate it. I might disagree with it. I might scream. But unless a stronger One than gravity stops my downward race, and reverses it with His POWER, I am doomed. This should be clear from two very clearly written scriptures.

1. In Romans Chapter 7 we are faced with a man under Law who is zealous for it. He has no option but to fail every time (v.15)
2. In Galatians 5 we have man who has the Spirit in his human spirit, and he fails most of the time (Gal.5:17)

What chance is there of an evil Tree bringing forth good fruit? ... ZERO! He needs God to SUPPLY HIM in every aspect.

With respect. You are heavy on the anecdotes and assumptions. Its like " well I see this is talking about this specific situation or person, but I think it applies to such and such as well " . This is what is the majority of Christians do when reading the bible. We don't read this way in any other book . Inductive reasoning . We see something happening once and assume that's what always happens. Everyone's Lydia , Peter, David, The apostles, Israel, Paul on the road to Damascus, . No one is Jonas or John the baptist leaping in the womb interestingly enough lol

 

[BenjaminN]

Do you have any verse which says we are given a new heart that doesn't have Israel attached to it ? Come on now its a bible study ?

God's created saved beings, were created with the attribute of faith, they possess this attribute.


2 Corinthians 4 (ESV)

13 Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, "I believed, and so I spoke," we also believe, and so we also speak, 14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. 15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God. 16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.


Proverbs 10 (ESV)

8 The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin.

 

[throughfaith]

No what is nonsense is that everyone here has made it clear to you several times over but you just don't understand what their saying and it's like you somehow hear the exact opposite of what everyone is saying and as I said before the only time I found the word regeneration in scripture was linked with the holy spirit and salvation and it also means born again so I will make it simple a regenrated believer is a born again believer do you hate the belief system you so openly speak against that you see it in everything everyone says or do you just purposely not listen and want to argue?

Let's ma

You can not earn your salvation, by having your own faith, not originating from God, but only from yourself. If you can not give credit to God for your salvation by grace (that you would somehow have attained faith by yourself without Him), are you questioning the might of the Almighty?

Then its not by faith then is it ? Is God like the man that has to hypnotise a woman in order for her to choose him ?

 

[Magenta]

Good grief what more do you want ? Made Possible? Where do we begin ? in short. Creation , conscience, The law Israel ,apostles The giving of the Son ,the Holy Spirit , The Bible, the Gospel. Is this not enough lol??
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1 .
John 16:8

“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”

Exactly. Without the Holy Spirit of God convicting us of sin, we would perish in our sins.

Because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive in Christ
even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved.

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision
of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

Did you circumcise yourself? No, you did not. The text is clear: not by human hands.

 

[Corban]

With respect. You are heavy on the anecdotes and assumptions. Its like " well I see this is talking about this specific situation or person, but I think it applies to such and such as well " . This is what is the majority of Christians do when reading the bible. We don't read this way in any other book . Inductive reasoning . We see something happening once and assume that's what always happens. Everyone's Lydia , Peter, David, The apostles, Israel, Paul on the road to Damascus, . No one is Jonas or John the baptist leaping in the womb interestingly enough lol

I've read and noted your points. I'll let mine stand. Every man who ever admits Jesus as the Son of God has recieved that revelation from the Father in heaven. But I appreciate your humor too.