PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

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Scribe

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#181
#181
Blackpowderduelist said:
Prevevient Grace is a better concept than irresistible Grace although not altogether accurate.
I really haven't put together my thoughts on this completely yet, but I will try to explain what I mean.
Upon hearing the Gospel of truth the Holy Spirit begins a work of conviction that weighs against the will of the human. (The human will only serves to resist the gospel and God) some will muster up resistance and reinforce their resistance, but others their will breaks and they submit, and grace enters in by the word of the gospel (thus some plant, some water, and some harvest) and convinces of Jesus and this human who has under the weight of conviction is broken and now convinced, repents and believes. Now this person is regenerate and becomes joined to Christ in baptism sealing them in Christ's death burial and resurrection by the Holy Ghost.
But the man who rejects hardens his heart and becomes bitter in his conviction, reinforcing his rejection and unless his will be broken he will die in it and be damned.

This is how I see it from the Bible.
I don't see irresistible Grace at all, I do see many reject grace, and many broken under the weight of conviction, or as scripture describes as cut through the heart.
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I agree. And even those who appear to have sided with Grace but are not yielding to the inward conviction of the Holy Spirit are being hardened by their choices so that it is possible that they are convinced that they have Light but their light is darkness.

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

These inward choices we make once confronted with the call of the Spirit have consequences. Either life unto life or death unto death.

We apply it to that initial call to regeneration but it does not stop there. After we begin our journey we must continuously heed the call or we will shrink back. And the light we think we have will be taken from us.
 
Corban

Corban

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#182
Jun 11, 2020
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#182
throughfaith said:
This ' inner ' revelation? Which verses ? call me pedantic if you must but we have a great deal of Jargon that slips under the Radar that needs clarifying.
There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)
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Show my appreciation of the verse to be wrong - with scripture, and you will have your answer. What is your explanation of Paul, in one sentence admitting that He was Lord and asking who He was?
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#183
#183
Corban said:
Show my appreciation of the verse to be wrong - with scripture, and you will have your answer. What is your explanation of Paul, in one sentence admitting that He was Lord and asking who He was?
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respect?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#185
Aug 4, 2020
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#185
Corban said:
Show my appreciation of the verse to be wrong - with scripture, and you will have your answer. What is your explanation of Paul, in one sentence admitting that He was Lord and asking who He was?
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I'm not sure there has to be a deeper meaning other than what the narrative gives. He knows the vision/ occurance is ' heavenly ' So ' Lord ' makes sense.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#186
Jul 3, 2015
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#186
throughfaith said:
I'm not sure there has to be a deeper meaning other than what the narrative gives. He knows the vision/ occurance is ' heavenly ' So ' Lord ' makes sense.
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He also did not know it was Jesus when he asked “Who are You, Lord?”
 
S

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#187
#187
Corban said:
May I refer you to my posting # 165 for the arguments. Thanks bro.
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Yes, I read it. However I don't think it has to be any more than recognizing he is being confronted by a Divine manifestation and trying to figure it out. The first "Lord" here could be respect and fear. The revelation coming after the answer was given. I don't think you can be conclusive (or even convincing) that his initial "Lord" was in full understanding that it was Jesus until Jesus told him.

But you might be correct. His kicking against the goad was a reference to an inner suspicion he had that he was fighting against God. It probably started when he heard the excellent preaching by Stephen, from that day on he was probably going through and internal war.
Maybe that is what Romans 7 was about more than anything else.

So he might have asked who he was, calling him Lord in the generic sense, but having an inward suspicion it was Jesus at the same time. I will grant that much.

As to the goads being a method for pushing them into a bath.

I don't see any reason to think that Jesus was referring to an OX bath or that Luke had it mind when he recorded this. Seems that the agricultural custom of the time, (and probably still in certain areas of that part of the world today) is that of goading them with a sharp stick to make them go in the direction you want them to go on a daily basis or maybe in training.

That if they kicked against it, it would just hurt more. I also read that there is something in the construction of some of the harnesses for plowing that would poke them if they tried to back up and kicking against them would hurt even worse. Both are probably true and the latter might be what was understood by the readers of the time. More research into the custom of the time should yield the most probable answer but I doubt that a bath would be the main idea and unless you can present resources that are convincing I would be inclined to reject any bath idea intended in this text. Even if there is a source to back up the goading into a bath, it would have been an occasional reason for one out of thousand goads for guiding them. Why would that one reason out of all the other reasons for goading them on a daily basis be intended by the reference? Sounds like an unlikely conjecture and supposition.
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#188
Aug 4, 2020
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#188
Magenta said:
He also did not know it was Jesus when he asked “Who are You, Lord?”
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Yes he did not know .
But not for long .
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#189
Aug 4, 2020
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#189
Corban said:
Show my appreciation of the verse to be wrong - with scripture, and you will have your answer. What is your explanation of Paul, in one sentence admitting that He was Lord and asking who He was?
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Nobody is getting an ' inner call ' . Paul is spoken to Audibly.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#190
Jul 3, 2015
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#190
throughfaith said:
Yes he did not know .
But not for long .
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
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Exactly. Paul called Him Lord without knowing it was Jesus.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#191
Jul 3, 2015
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#191
throughfaith said:
Nobody is getting an ' inner call ' . Paul is spoken to Audibly.
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The Holy Spirit convicting you is not an inner experience?

How would you characterize it, if not a call to repent?

Earlier you were denying that God speaks audibly to people.
 
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throughfaith

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#192
Aug 4, 2020
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#192
Magenta said:
Exactly. Paul called Him Lord without knowing it was Jesus.
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I think most would given it would be unmistakable coming from Jesus. His authority, majesty ect .I bet you didn't doubt you coming to know Jesus was less than that .
 
Magenta

Magenta

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#193
Jul 3, 2015
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#193
throughfaith said:
I think most would given it would be unmistakable coming from Jesus. His authority, majesty ect .
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Paul did not recognize those things at that time, standing firmly against and actively opposing them, remember?
 
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throughfaith

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#194
Aug 4, 2020
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#194
Magenta said:
The Holy Spirit convicting you is not an inner experience?

How would you characterize it, if not a call to repent?

Earlier you were denying that God speaks audibly to people.
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We would have to look at all the scriptures where it speaks about this .
 
T

throughfaith

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#195
Aug 4, 2020
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#195
Magenta said:
Paul did not recognize those things at that time, standing firmly against and actively opposing them, remember?
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So many things happened to Paul . I have to stop there though . I have biblical reason to go further than that .Paul was specific and given a major specific mission . We cannot assume we experience the same or even close .Any more than say Elijha or Jonas or moses ect . God has used spokes persons for special purposes.
 
T

throughfaith

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#196
Aug 4, 2020
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#196
Magenta said:
Paul did not recognize those things at that time, standing firmly against and actively opposing them, remember?
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Not until Jesus actually appears to him .But what Paul understood before is not given?
 
Magenta

Magenta

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#197
Jul 3, 2015
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#197
throughfaith said:
Not until Jesus actually appears to him .But what Paul understood before is not given?
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He called himself a Pharisee of pharisees. He understood the law and the transition via the new covenant to salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone to the glory of God alone better than most.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#198
Jul 3, 2015
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#198
throughfaith said:
So many things happened to Paul . I have to stop there though . I have biblical reason to go further than that .Paul was specific and given a major specific mission . We cannot assume we experience the same or even close .Any more than say Elijha or Jonas or moses ect . God has used spokes persons for special purposes.
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We do not have to be a Moses or a Paul to experience God personally. There is no need to assume anything beyond what Scripture tells us, and it tells us God has a plan and a purpose for our lives, and we can know Him personally, which is an inner experience whether you want to admit it or not. That is why confessing with your mouth is not enough; we must believe in our heart.
 
T

throughfaith

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#199
Aug 4, 2020
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#199
Magenta said:
He called himself a Pharisee of pharisees. He understood the law and the transition via the new covenant to salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone to the glory of God alone better than most.
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Which verse says that? Jesus has to give Paul those things by revelation personally.
Gal 1 1¶Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:2

“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:”
 
T

throughfaith

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#200
Aug 4, 2020
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#200
Magenta said:
We do not have to be a Moses or a Paul to experience God personally. There is no need to assume anything beyond what Scripture tells us, and it tells us God has a plan and a purpose for our lives, and we can know Him personally, which is an inner experience whether you want to admit it or not. That is why confessing with your mouth is not enough; we must believe in our heart.
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which verses ?
 
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