PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

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oldethennew

Banned
#301
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
#301
BenjaminN said:
If you resist or reject, it means you never received the gift of salvation by grace through faith.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
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once we have 'for real' been 'touched' by God, (personal opinion), -
there really is no other 'place that you would ever want/desire to go' -
we only desire to draw 'closer and closer' to our Saviour, and, 'if'
anyone wants to 'return to the wicked world', we seriously question
the validity of their 'conversion'...

by the way, hub and I love Corban's Hebrew name,
which means, 'to draw near'...
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#302
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#302

Romans 12 (ESV)

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#303
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#303
BenjaminN said:
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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Yes not of your selfs meaning, not by works . We use this verse against those who are trying to work for their salvation . What a strange thing for Paul to be telling them . He's spent book after book telling the church salvation is by faith alone . That were justified by faith . That it was Abraham's own faith which was credited for righteousness. That it was after They trusted . After they believed. Only to say " oh but by the way you didn't believe really . God actually caused belief in those he saves . "
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#304
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#304
BenjaminN said:

Romans 12 (ESV)

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
Click to expand...
Kjv
3¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 
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BenjaminN

Well-known member
#305
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#305
throughfaith said:
Yes not of your selfs meaning, not by works . We use this verse against those who are trying to work for their salvation . What a strange thing for Paul to be telling them . He's spent book after book telling the church salvation is by faith alone . That were justified by faith . That it was Abraham's own faith which was credited for righteousness. That it was after They trusted . After they believed. Only to say " oh but by the way you didn't believe really . God actually caused belief in those he saves . "
Click to expand...
We don't "use" God's word. God's word speaks to us, and then we believe, if we were granted faith of salvation by God.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#307
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#307
throughfaith said:
In the ESV ? ;)
Click to expand...
No verse says we are granted faith but rather .
The Promise Granted Through Faith
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [a]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
 
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BenjaminN

Well-known member
#308
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#308
throughfaith said:
Kjv
3¶For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Click to expand...

Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 
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BenjaminN

Well-known member
#309
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#309
throughfaith said:
In the ESV ? ;)
Click to expand...
Yes it's called God's word. We have respect for it.


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#312
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
#312
ROMANS 4:2.
For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God. =
there are certainly different meanings concerning 'justification'.,.
JAMES 2:21.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
and again, JAMES says that, 'Faith without works is dead',.., and indeed it IS,
'for even the devils believe and tremble'...

initial 'redemption' is a 'FREE-GIFT', we cannot earn it or work for it!!!
but,
'after we receive The Gift', our 'fruits bear witness', to whether we are truly
the 'servants of God, or the servants of satan'...
as it is written:
'To whom much is given, much is required'...
this is a personal journey/discernment, being able to acknowledge just 'how much we have been given'...
and thus, our witness will be within us for all to see and judge, accordingly...
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#313
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#313
BenjaminN said:
Yes it's called God's word. We have respect for it.


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Click to expand...
We Shouldn't think of ourselves as the only chosen ones , as if we alone have been gifted faith ( for example) As if there are some that God has not granted to believe. No God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith.
He has the choice to place that faith in the right object or the wrong object .
That being in Christ or another thing .
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#314
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#314
throughfaith said:
No verse says we are granted faith but rather .
The Promise Granted Through Faith
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [a]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Click to expand...
Brother, we need to be truthful in humbleness to the words of scripture. It is God that grants all of us our measure of faith, or lack thereof. He grants his merciful gift of salvation, by grace through faith for his good works, to whom He pleases, it is not of ourselves:


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#315
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#315
BenjaminN said:
Brother, we need to be truthful in humbleness to the words of scripture. It is God that grants all of us our measure of faith, or lack thereof. He grants his merciful gift of salvation, by grace through faith for his good works, to whom He pleases, it is not of ourselves:


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Click to expand...
You keep ignoring the EVERYMAN part ? We ought not to going around thinking God has allotted a special group of people the special gift of faith.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#316
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#316
oldethennew said:
ROMANS 4:2.
For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God. =
there are certainly different meanings concerning 'justification'.,.
JAMES 2:21.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
and again, JAMES says that, 'Faith without works is dead',.., and indeed it IS,
'for even the devils believe and tremble'...

initial 'redemption' is a 'FREE-GIFT', we cannot earn it or work for it!!!
but,
'after we receive The Gift', our 'fruits bear witness', to whether we are truly
the 'servants of God, or the servants of satan'...
as it is written:
'To whom much is given, much is required'...
this is a personal journey/discernment, being able to acknowledge just 'how much we have been given'...
and thus, our witness will be within us for all to see and judge, accordingly...
Click to expand...
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#317
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#317
BenjaminN said:
Brother, we need to be truthful in humbleness to the words of scripture. It is God that grants all of us our measure of faith, or lack thereof. He grants his merciful gift of salvation, by grace through faith for his good works, to whom He pleases, it is not of ourselves:


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Click to expand...
There's a certain irony here . Were discussing Arminaism being defended by a Calvinist. Which proves that both systems are wrong for the same reason s . They both have bought into the idea of the T .
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#318
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#318
throughfaith said:
Every man ?
Click to expand...
Yes every man's measure of faith (lack of faith, little faith, or faith that can move mountains), has been dealt to him by God.

The measure of faith God has dealt to someone, might also be on the low end of the scale at zero. If someone believes that their believes are their own, and not from God, none of it is faith dealt by God, and is therefor at the very bottom end of the measure of faith scale.


Romans 12 (KJV)

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Ephesians 2 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
B

BenjaminN

Well-known member
#319
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
#319
throughfaith said:
There's a certain irony here . Were discussing Arminaism being defended by a Calvinist. Which proves that both systems are wrong for the same reason s . They both have bought into the idea of the T .
Click to expand...
The only -ist I'll allow you to hang around my neck is Christ Yeshua's.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#320
#320
Corban said:
Thank you for your measured answer. We all have our view. I might have missed it, bit do you think that flesh and blood can reveal Jesus as the Son of God, or are each of us (believers) invested with this revelation from the Father?
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The moment of revelation that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God is from the Father. We know that from what Jesus told Peter. Upon this rock I will build my church. Each person that puts faith in Jesus as the one who will save them does so because the Father gave them this illumination. This is from God and we cannot claim credit for that.
People can try and explain it but when we embrace it with our whole heart and commit to it, that is from the Father.
And then we become another living stone in the temple that makes up the church. Upon THIS rock the Rock of Jesus, the Rock of believing Who Jesus is, this Rock is from the Father and upon THIS ROCK I will build my Church.

That is the way I interpret that verse.
 
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