Can someone lose their salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

Well the KJV is a very reputable translation so I will stick with that

I take a works based interpretation of Rom ch 7?

But I don't believe that chapter is of Paul as a Christian, so I don't understand how I am supposed to believe in a works based Gospel

But I do think that some(and I only say some) are upset that I view Rom 7 as before Paul was a Christian for a particular reason
I am sorry I have made you so aghast, but I think you are desperate to believe that Paul of Rom 7 must have been speaking as a Christian, that is how it is coming accross to me

But there is an irony here. On the one hand I have people berating me for believing Paul in Rom 7 was not a Christian for they earnestly wish me to accept Christians suffer from these types of problems, and I am told by some I am speaking of perfection for Christians, but I can tell for a fact that many are at the same time alarmed that Paul could have suffered from concupiscence

I am desperate?

Lets see. That I WANT TO DO, I do not Do. (present tense)

If Paul said, That I wanted to do, I did not do. That I did not want to do I did (Past tense) I could easily come up with your interpretation. But language does not allow me to. I interpret it as a person in Rome who recieved the letter would. Which they would have read himn writing in present tense. It is not that I am desperate. I interpret it for what it says. Not for what I want it to say.

As for the KJV, It, Like many english text. Has quite a few errors. I do not trust any english text 100 persent.

 

[livingbygrace]

I am desperate?

Lets see. That I WANT TO DO, I do not Do. (present tense)

If Paul said, That I wanted to do, I did not do. That I did not want to do I did (Past tense) I could easily come up with your interpretation. But language does not allow me to. I interpret it as a person in Rome who recieved the letter would. Which they would have read himn writing in present tense. It is not that I am desperate. I interpret it for what it says. Not for what I want it to say.

As for the KJV, It, Like many english text. Has quite a few errors. I do not trust any english text 100 persent.

OK

Paul said in verse 14 that he was a slave to sin

In Rom 6:16 Paul said that if a person is a slave to sin that leads to death but obediance leads to righteousness

So according to Paul if he is a Christian in Rom 7 he is heading for death

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK

Paul said in verse 14 that he was a slave to sin

In Rom 6:16 Paul said that if a person is a slave to sin that leads to death but obediance leads to righteousness

So according to Paul if he is a Christian in Rom 7 he is heading for death

Think about what you just posted.

Obedience leads to righteousness. Is paul teaching in this verse that a person must obay the law to be saved? No. So what is he really saying.

If Paul is not teaching that obedience leads to salvation.. Might he be talking about a different type of death? like a lack of a life?

You ever been a prodigal son? I have. I was dead for 4 years. Why? Because I lived in sin. I did not receive any blessing From God. I had nothing. I was brought to my knees where I had nothing left. I was ready to take my life. When God brought me back

I was dead. For a christian, this is death. For a non believer, there is no life. So sin can;t leave them to death, they are already spiritually dead.

 

[livingbygrace]

I am desperate?

Lets see. That I WANT TO DO, I do not Do. (present tense)

If Paul said, That I wanted to do, I did not do. That I did not want to do I did (Past tense) I could easily come up with your interpretation. But language does not allow me to. I interpret it as a person in Rome who recieved the letter would. Which they would have read himn writing in present tense. It is not that I am desperate. I interpret it for what it says. Not for what I want it to say.

As for the KJV, It, Like many english text. Has quite a few errors. I do not trust any english text 100 persent.

So is this the present tense to be consistent

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law HAD SAID
Thou shalt not covet
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment WROUGHT IN ME all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
Once I was alive without the law, BUT WHEN THE COMMANDMENT CAME SIN REVIVED AND I DIED
And the commandment which was ordained to life I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH
For sin taking occasion by the commandment FOOLED ME AND BY IT SLEW ME

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So is this the present tense to be consistent

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law HAD SAID
Thou shalt not covet
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment WROUGHT IN ME all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
Once I was alive without the law, BUT WHEN THE COMMANDMENT CAME SIN REVIVED AND I DIED
And the commandment which was ordained to life I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH
For sin taking occasion by the commandment FOOLED ME AND BY IT SLEW ME

That was past tense. The part I posted, the section in question was present tense. So tell me, Why did Paul gfo from past tense to present tense if he was still talking past tense?

It makes no sense.


ps, why have you not responded to this verse?

Rom 8 : 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So is this the present tense to be consistent

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law HAD SAID
Thou shalt not covet
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment WROUGHT IN ME all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
Once I was alive without the law, BUT WHEN THE COMMANDMENT CAME SIN REVIVED AND I DIED
And the commandment which was ordained to life I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH
For sin taking occasion by the commandment FOOLED ME AND BY IT SLEW ME

Also read romans 1. No man has an excuse. Read hebrews. the law was a turtor to lead me to Christ. etc etc.. there is so much your missing

 

[livingbygrace]

Think about what you just posted.

Obedience leads to righteousness. Is paul teaching in this verse that a person must obay the law to be saved? No. So what is he really saying.

If Paul is not teaching that obedience leads to salvation.. Might he be talking about a different type of death? like a lack of a life?

You ever been a prodigal son? I have. I was dead for 4 years. Why? Because I lived in sin. I did not receive any blessing From God. I had nothing. I was brought to my knees where I had nothing left. I was ready to take my life. When God brought me back

I was dead. For a christian, this is death. For a non believer, there is no life. So sin can;t leave them to death, they are already spiritually dead.

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, SOLD AS A SLAVE TO SIN
verse 14

For what I do is not the good I want to do, NO THE EVIL I DO NOT WANT TO DO, THIS I KEEP ON DOING
verse 19

But I see another law at work in my body waging war against the law of my mind, AND MAKING ME A PRISONER OF THE LAW OF SIN
verse24


So, Paul is sold as a slave to sin, he does not do the good he wants to do, but the evil he does not want to do he does, and he is a prisoner of the law of sin

But he probably doesn't suffer from concupiscence, OK

Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God
Rom 8:8

By the verses I have quoted from Rom 7, Paul cannot please God

Therefore brothers we have an obligation-but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
FOR IF YOU LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE YOU WILL DIE
Rom 8:12

Yet Paul you say as a Christian is a slave to sin, he cannot do the good he wants to do, but the evil he does not want to do he constantly does and he is a prisoner of the law of sin

 

[livingbygrace]

Also read romans 1. No man has an excuse. Read hebrews. the law was a turtor to lead me to Christ. etc etc.. there is so much your missing

I don't think it is I who am missing things here.
You seem to use tenses to suit

Did Paul as a Christian strive to obey the written law and did he therefore find himself filled with lust because he did(out of deference to you I will ignore the word concupiscence)
And he was slew by this and found it to be unto death

 

[livingbygrace]

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, SOLD AS A SLAVE TO SIN
verse 14

For what I do is not the good I want to do, NO THE EVIL I DO NOT WANT TO DO, THIS I KEEP ON DOING
verse 19

But I see another law at work in my body waging war against the law of my mind, AND MAKING ME A PRISONER OF THE LAW OF SIN
verse24



Paul is a slave to sin, he cannot do the good he wants to do, but the evil he does not want to do he constantly does and he is a prisoner of the law of sin, according to you as a Christian

How do the above verses fit in with Rom 6:14

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace

 

[livingbygrace]

We know that the law is spiritual BUT I AM UNSPIRITUAL, SOLD AS A SLAVE TO SIN
I do not understand what I do. FOR WHAT I WANT TO DO I DO NOT DO BUT WHAT I HATE TO DO
And if I do what I do not want to do I agree that the law is good
(Paul has twice now refered to the law in these verses, the law he is no longer under if he is a Christian)
As it is IT IS NO LONGER I MYSELF WHO DO IT BUT SIN LIVING IN ME
I know that nothing good lives in me that is in my sinful nature
For I have the desire to do what is good BUT I CANNOT CARY IT OUT
FOR WHAT I DO IS NOT THE GOOD I WANT TO DO; NO THE EVIL I DO NOT WANT TO DO, THIS I KEEP ON DOING.
Now if I do what I do not want to do, IT IS NO LONGER I WHO DO IT, BUT SIN LIVING IN ME
So I find this law at work
WHEN I WANT TO DO GOOD EVIL IS RIGHT THERE WITH ME
For in my inner being I delight in God's law(again) but I see another law at work in the members of my body, WAGING WAR AGAINST THE LAW OF MY MIND AND MAKING ME A PRISONER OF THE LAW OF SIN at work within my members
Rom 7:14-23


FOR SIN SHALL NOT BE YOUR MASTER FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE
Rom 6:14

 

[livingbygrace]

awww.....you kinda cheated LBG.
ch 7 the believer and sin and The Law, with the Law unable to sanctify).

quote]

You would agree then Zone that as a Christian the following happened to Paul

He strove to obey the law, by doing so his mind became full of lust and concupiscence
Through striving to obey the law/commandment he died
The commandment became death unto him
Sin by taking occasion of the commandment(law) slew Paul
Paul could not do the good he wanted to do, but the evil he did not want to do he continuously did
Paul is carnal and sold under sin

He was brought into captivity by the law of sin


BUT

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace

Rom 6:14

 

[unclefester]

You said that to me once before about another cut and paste you put up

Remember, we must obey the law

Thou shalt noty bear false witness

What does a cut and paste have to do with bearing "false witness" ? If you "cut and paste" a verse from the bible and insert it into a post, are you "bearing false witness" ? Is anybody that pastes a commentary not of their own words "bearing false witness" ? Where and how you come up with this nonsense is beyond me. In any event, in regards to this "question",....." In your opinion do you believe as a Christian Paul strove to obey the law and the result was that his mind became full of lust and concupiscence(sexual desire) and he was slew by this and it brought death in him?".....are you asking if it was Paul's "striving to obey" that caused him to sin and thus brought his judgement ? My simple answer would be no. It was not his "striving". It was the fact that he was in the "flesh"....that sinful nature that is common to all of us. This is what that "cut and paste" (you know...that bearing false witness thing) explained to you (to no avail). If that isn't what you were asking, try making your questions a tad clearer. There is so much doublespeak in many of your posts, it is dizzying just trying to read them. One minute it is God's grace that saves us........the next minute it is "our responsibility" to do this or that. Which is it LBG ? Or is it God's grace "IF" we "DO" this or that ? Make up your mind, will ya ?

***I don't adhere to your understanding of "plain scripture" in regards to Paul's infirmity. But that's neither here nor there.

 

[livingbygrace]

What does a cut and paste have to do with bearing "false witness" ? If you "cut and paste" a verse from the bible and insert it into a post, are you "bearing false witness" ? Is anybody that pastes a commentary not of their own words "bearing false witness" ? Where and how you come up with this nonsense is beyond me.
Sorry uncle a poor taste of humour, it was only meant light heartedly. I hope you enjoyed the hockey game



In any event, in regards to this "question",....." In your opinion do you believe as a Christian Paul strove to obey the law and the result was that his mind became full of lust and concupiscence(sexual desire) and he was slew by this and it brought death in him?".....are you asking if it was Paul's "striving to obey" that caused him to sin and thus brought his judgement ? My simple answer would be no. It was not his "striving". It was the fact that he was in the "flesh"....that sinful nature that is common to all of us. This is what that "cut and paste" (you know...that bearing false witness thing) explained to you (to no avail). If that isn't what you were asking, try making your questions a tad clearer. There is so much doublespeak in many of your posts, it is dizzying just trying to read them. One minute it is God's grace that saves us........the next minute it is "our responsibility" to do this or that. Which is it LBG ? Or is it God's grace "IF" we "DO" this or that ? Make up your mind, will ya ?


Just trying ot stretch your mind to its fullest potential

***I don't adhere to your understanding of "plain scripture" in regards to Paul's infirmity. But that's neither here nor there.

Why as a Christian would Paul strive to obey the written law?

The good laws of God he would have us keep have been written on our hearts and minds, that is the new covenant, meaning that in our hearts we want to live as God would have us live.

So why after Paul continually stating he died to the law and was not under the law, did he strive to obey it and it slew him and became death unto him. How can this happen if he had died to the law?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, SOLD AS A SLAVE TO SIN
verse 14

For what I do is not the good I want to do, NO THE EVIL I DO NOT WANT TO DO, THIS I KEEP ON DOING
verse 19

But I see another law at work in my body waging war against the law of my mind, AND MAKING ME A PRISONER OF THE LAW OF SIN
verse24


So, Paul is sold as a slave to sin, he does not do the good he wants to do, but the evil he does not want to do he does, and he is a prisoner of the law of sin

But he probably doesn't suffer from concupiscence, OK

Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God
Rom 8:8

By the verses I have quoted from Rom 7, Paul cannot please God

Therefore brothers we have an obligation-but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
FOR IF YOU LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE YOU WILL DIE
Rom 8:12

Yet Paul you say as a Christian is a slave to sin, he cannot do the good he wants to do, but the evil he does not want to do he constantly does and he is a prisoner of the law of sin

A few comments.

1. Everything Paul wrote above was spoken of in present tense. Not past tense. He was going through these things at the time he wrote this letter. Not like when he realised the law copndemned him, which happened in the past.

2. No one can please God when we are in the flesh. This is what Paul was saying. When we are sinning, we are in the flesh. And we can't please God.

3. If we live in the sin nature (ie prodigal son) we will die. Because our fathers blessing, help and guidance will be cut off. not to mention the fact we will be chastened, Which means we will suffer more for sin than an unbeliever, Who does not receive chastening.

4. It is this "death" which brings us back to God. Just like the prodigal son who had lost everything and had no hope returned to his father. And HOW I RETURNED TO GOD.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think it is I who am missing things here.
You seem to use tenses to suit

Did Paul as a Christian strive to obey the written law and did he therefore find himself filled with lust because he did(out of deference to you I will ignore the word concupiscence)
And he was slew by this and found it to be unto death

I don't use tenses to suit. I use it as it is spoken.

If you wrote me a letter and said, "I am struggling to read Gods word. I am not sure why, But I hope it ends soon."

I would not read it that you said ,"I at one time was struggling to read Gods word. I still am not sure why. But I am glad it ended.'

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If I read you the second way. I would misinterpret what you said.

if you meant the second, but wrote the first. I would think you have a language problem.

As for what Paul struggled with? I don't know what it was. If he struggled with lust, then he did. And when he was in that frame of mind, he could not please God, because the flesh was working against him. WHich is what he was saying in the first place.

We all have struggled with this. Or maybe you have not? (not just lust, any sin) if you have not. You must be a superchristian!

 

[livingbygrace]

I don't use tenses to suit. I use it as it is spoken.

If you wrote me a letter and said, "I am struggling to read Gods word. I am not sure why, But I hope it ends soon."

I would not read it that you said ,"I at one time was struggling to read Gods word. I still am not sure why. But I am glad it ended.'

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If I read you the second way. I would misinterpret what you said.

if you meant the second, but wrote the first. I would think you have a language problem.

As for what Paul struggled with? I don't know what it was. If he struggled with lust, then he did. And when he was in that frame of mind, he could not please God, because the flesh was working against him. WHich is what he was saying in the first place.

We all have struggled with this. Or maybe you have not? (not just lust, any sin) if you have not. You must be a superchristian!

I have never claimed to be a super Christian or a scholar, nor have I ever denied suffering from any particular sin. So I am a little suprised by your comment

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you say that you believed Paul was speaking in the past tense in verses 7-11, and if so would this be before he became a Christian or while he was a Christian he is speaking of there?

The reason I do not enter great discourse concerning 14-25 in reference to tenses is as to me it is plain what he is saying refers to his comments in the previous verses and to you it doesn't it seems pointless to engage in much debate concerning that. But you have made your point on this many times, I understand your position there is no need to keep stressing it

 

[livingbygrace]

A few comments.

1. Everything Paul wrote above was spoken of in present tense. Not past tense. He was going through these things at the time he wrote this letter. Not like when he realised the law copndemned him, which happened in the past.

2. No one can please God when we are in the flesh. This is what Paul was saying. When we are sinning, we are in the flesh. And we can't please God.

3. If we live in the sin nature (ie prodigal son) we will die. Because our fathers blessing, help and guidance will be cut off. not to mention the fact we will be chastened, Which means we will suffer more for sin than an unbeliever, Who does not receive chastening.

4. It is this "death" which brings us back to God. Just like the prodigal son who had lost everything and had no hope returned to his father. And HOW I RETURNED TO GOD.

Well as I believe(correct me if I am wrong) Paul wrote the book of Romans many years after his conversion(maybe someone could tell me exactly when)

You therefore believe that for most of Paul's Christian life he was

Sold as a slave to sin

A prisoner of sin

(a carnal Christian under sin KJV)

The good he wanted to do he did not do, but rather the evil he did not want to do he continuously did

If this is correct I wonder why I have been concerned about much in my own life, if this was Paul's life as a Christian. I am sure I will never be as far along the road as he was, I should certainly expect no more than the above in my own life

But I do wonder how all this fits in with

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grave Rom 6:14

obviously this did not apply to Paul's Christian life

 

[zone]

Thank you for that Zone, but personally I do like to go by the beliefs I am convicted off myself

ummm....you mean you like to pick and choose?
Spurgeon doesn't suit this time?

Saul of Tarsus believed he was blameless and righteous LBG.
little paul brought to his senses tells us the truth.

but, the same folks who say king david's sin was different from the strawman's sin also generally hold to Weslyan perfectionism doctrine (Second Baptism).

carry on....

 

[zone]

answers above

since when can we not use resources WE AFFIRM?

 

[livingbygrace]

ummm....you mean you like to pick and choose?
Spurgeon doesn't suit this time?

Saul of Tarsus believed he was blameless and righteous LBG.
little paul brought to his senses tells us the truth.

but, the same folks who say king david's sin was different from the strawman's sin also generally hold to Weslyan perfectionism doctrine (Second Baptism).

carry on....

Now now Zone, try and speak with scrupulous honesty concerning what others have said

I am happy to quote Spurgeon for your benefit I know you base most of your opinions on scholars and theologians

Did Paul say he was perfect? Have I said he was perfect?