The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
You DID have to interpret it and I did NOT say the Lord didn't take away the sin of the world.

The Lord took away the sin of the world of BELIEVERS. Those who are in Christ Jesus. Past, present and future.


YOUR INTERPRETATION is that the Lord took away ALL SIN of the world. Even for those who are not Believers in Christ Jesus.

In light of all the rest of scripture we see that YOUR INTERPRETATION cannot be correct.



Your "plain language" interpretation causes scripture to contradict other scripture.

Look at John 3:18. Now ask the question "What could they possibly be condemned for if the Lord has taken the sin of every single person of the whole world"

Then look at Romans 8:1-2. You see what is REQUIRED in order to NOT be under condemnation of sin and death.



Well, good luck.
I post again for you.

John 1:29: "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

I do not interpret it, and it DOES say "sins of the world". It is you that adds "believers" and corrupts it. The wages of "sin" (singular) is death. If "sin" is not fully dealt with then ALL men cannot be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22). This verse does NOT speak of TRESPASSES. You probably need to go back and study Romans where the word "sin" (singular) is dealt with at length.

Don't add to scripture, and mostly it speaks for itself. There is a huge difference between "sin" (singular) and "sins" (plural). But what say you to 1st John 2:2. Do you need to ADD something there too?
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
You don't see the wword believe in Jn 3:16
We are discussing John 1:29. Do you see "world of believers" there? Or do you see just "world" like all the literal translations have?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
We are discussing John 1:29. Do you see "world of believers" there? Or do you see just "world" like all the literal translations have?
Same world, that of the believers. The world that doesnt have sin upon it. That cant be the world of the condemned 1 Cor 11:32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Now the world in Jn 1 29 cant be the condemned world of 1 Cor 11 32 ! Impossible.

The world of Jn 1 29 has partook of the saving results of Christs death, No sin on it !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
okay, the world of those believing ones is who God gave Christ for, the result of it being the believing ones. He didnt love or give His life for the condemned world of unbelievers.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
okay, the world of those believing ones is who God gave Christ for, the result of it being the believing ones. He didnt love or give His life for the condemned world of unbelievers.
Matthew
9:11 And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So you just proved that all sin is forgiven by Christ when we come to Him. Even the sin of unbelief.
justification Is the cleansing which allows us to be born again

what is it that holds us in the condemned state

in order to be born again, that sin must be justified,
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,127
1,803
113
Christ died for the Whole world of the Saved. His Sheep. His death effected their Salvation.
From GODs point of view who Is omnipresent and Loves RIGHTEOUSNESS died for the sin of anyone In the world that will be saved because HE has foreknowledge of who will be saved but man does not know this because man looks at outward appearances.

Your reply Is true If you were GOD but we are men and should understand that GOD died for everyone.

Looking at It that CHRIST only died for those that are saved Is comparing your mind to the ALMIGHTY'S mind when we are men and not GOD.

The bible written by man Inspired by GOD says this In
John 3:16
King James Version

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++
Hebrews 1:7-10
King James Version

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
Same world, that of the believers. The world that doesnt have sin upon it. That cant be the world of the condemned 1 Cor 11:32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Now the world in Jn 1 29 cant be the condemned world of 1 Cor 11 32 ! Impossible.

The world of Jn 1 29 has partook of the saving results of Christs death, No sin on it !
What you are doing is assuming something and then adding to scripture to make your assumption true. So let us see ... "world of believers"? Let's apply it. After all what you do to one scripture you must do to the rest. God's version first, then yours:

God: John 15:19; "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
brightfame52: "If ye were of the world of believers, the world of believers would love his own: but because ye are not of the world of believers, but I have chosen you out of the world of believers, therefore the world of believers hateth you."

God: 1st John 2:15; "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
brightfame52: "Love not the world of believers, neither the things that are in the world of believers. If any man love the world of believers, the love of the Father is not in him."

Absurd? Then let us leave off adding to scripture and discover what is meant. The answer lies in the five main Offerings of Leviticus - of which, Christ is the fulfillment.

You will note that in Leviticus we have, in this order (i) the Burnt Offering, (ii) the Meal Offering, (iii) the Peace Offering. Not one of them addresses sin or sins. Why? Because they solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. Their meanings need a book, so i will not go into it. It is only when we come to the last two Offerings that man's sin ans sins are dealt with; (iv) the Sin (singular) Offering, and (v) the Trespass (plural) Offering. These two Offerings ALSO solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. In Egypt, God needed Israel alive BECAUSE He had made Promises to Abraham. The blood on the OUTSIDE of the door was for God, so that He could pass over that house. The Israelites neither ate the blood nor partook of it nor saw it once the door was closed.

God's purpose in creating man in Genesis 1:26-28 was that he might subdue and rule the earth. And according to 1st Corinthians 15:22 death needs to be subdued. That is, Christ must set the JUDICIAL terms for God to overthrow sin (singular). The wages of sin (singular) is death, not the Lake of Fire (Rom.6:23). For ALL men to be resurrected, "sin" (singular), the thing caused by ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION (Rom.5:12-14). If our Lord Jesus can create the judicial grounds for a righteous God, this righteous God can say that sin is dealt with and cause the dead, ALL OF THEM, to be raised. And this He does. So 1st Corinthians 15:22 continues with the sequence of the resurrection of ALL men. First Christ, then us Christians, and finally, at the end, "the rest of the dead" (Rev.20). In Revelation 21 we see that there is NO MORE DEATH. This has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire. It has everything to do with the physically DEAD.

But these DEAD, except for Jesus Christ, have SINNED; or "committed TRESPASSES". For this the wages are PERDITION (Isa.66:24). The word "perdition" is used interchangeably with "destruction", the "Lake of Fire" and "the Second Death". Vine's expository dictionary tells us the the Greek word for "perdition" does not mean annihilation, or "cessation of the senses". It gives the meaning as "exquisite lack of well-being". That is, a man in perdition is alive and in command of all his faculties, but is desperately unhappy. So both Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 confirm that "HIS (personal) worm will not die", and "HIS (personal fire will not be quenched." And if you study the Lake of Fire, or the Second Death, or Perdition, you will find in every case that LIVING MEN go there. But this creates a problem FOR GOD.

Romans 11 says that ALL Israel will be saved. But it also says that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. According to Daniel, this is when God topples and crushes Gentile Government at Armageddon. ON WHAT BASIS CAN GOD EXTEND MERCY TO ISRAEL? Romans 11 says that they ALL have been concluded in unbelief. So how can they be saved? The answer is Jesus creates the JUDICIAL GROUNDS for God to forgive anybody He wants to (Romans 9:16-23, 11:30-32). 1st John 2:2 says that our Lord died for the SINS (plural), or TRESPASSES of the WORLD. Does this mean that men won't go to the Lake of Fire? NO! Does it mean that God winks at trespasses? NO! It means that Israel can be forgiven BASED ON THE COVENANT IF GOD WANTS TO! And so Romans 11 says so, and a number of Israelite Prophets say so. 1st John 2:2 mentions us Christians, but then goes on to say that NOT ONLY OUR SINS are dealt with by Christ's death, but EVERY SINGLE TRESPASS ever committed.

Christ, by taking ALL SINS (trespasses) on Himself clear the way for God to have mercy on who He likes to.

Summary:
  1. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for very man to be resurrected, even those who are cast int the Lake of Fire. He thus dies for the "sin" (singular) of the whole world. Death is caused by Adam's nature passed on from man to man and if our Lord did not shed His blood for the SIN of the world, God could not legally raise all men from the dead. And so we have the "SIN" (singular) Offering.
  2. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for a righteous God to extend mercy to people He made a promise to. Christ pays the price for ALL SINS (trespasses) ever committed so that God can extend mercy to who He wants. This is one of His most profound works. It gives God the right, without hurting His holiness and righteousness, to prevent an unbeliever, like a new-born baby, from going to the Lake of Fire. At the same time is does not FORCE God to do anything. Hitler will no doubt pay the price and reap the wages of his acts. But the ten-year-old Mongolian child-sheep-herder who was killed by Genghis Khan, and never heard the gospel, can be released from the Lake of Fire based solely on these judicial grounds created by Christ. Thus, Christ is the fulfillment of the TRESPASS Offering.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
What you are doing is assuming something and then adding to scripture to make your assumption true. So let us see ... "world of believers"? Let's apply it. After all what you do to one scripture you must do to the rest. God's version first, then yours:

God: John 15:19; "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
brightfame52: "If ye were of the world of believers, the world of believers would love his own: but because ye are not of the world of believers, but I have chosen you out of the world of believers, therefore the world of believers hateth you."

God: 1st John 2:15; "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
brightfame52: "Love not the world of believers, neither the things that are in the world of believers. If any man love the world of believers, the love of the Father is not in him."

Absurd? Then let us leave off adding to scripture and discover what is meant. The answer lies in the five main Offerings of Leviticus - of which, Christ is the fulfillment.

You will note that in Leviticus we have, in this order (i) the Burnt Offering, (ii) the Meal Offering, (iii) the Peace Offering. Not one of them addresses sin or sins. Why? Because they solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. Their meanings need a book, so i will not go into it. It is only when we come to the last two Offerings that man's sin ans sins are dealt with; (iv) the Sin (singular) Offering, and (v) the Trespass (plural) Offering. These two Offerings ALSO solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. In Egypt, God needed Israel alive BECAUSE He had made Promises to Abraham. The blood on the OUTSIDE of the door was for God, so that He could pass over that house. The Israelites neither ate the blood nor partook of it nor saw it once the door was closed.

God's purpose in creating man in Genesis 1:26-28 was that he might subdue and rule the earth. And according to 1st Corinthians 15:22 death needs to be subdued. That is, Christ must set the JUDICIAL terms for God to overthrow sin (singular). The wages of sin (singular) is death, not the Lake of Fire (Rom.6:23). For ALL men to be resurrected, "sin" (singular), the thing caused by ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION (Rom.5:12-14). If our Lord Jesus can create the judicial grounds for a righteous God, this righteous God can say that sin is dealt with and cause the dead, ALL OF THEM, to be raised. And this He does. So 1st Corinthians 15:22 continues with the sequence of the resurrection of ALL men. First Christ, then us Christians, and finally, at the end, "the rest of the dead" (Rev.20). In Revelation 21 we see that there is NO MORE DEATH. This has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire. It has everything to do with the physically DEAD.

But these DEAD, except for Jesus Christ, have SINNED; or "committed TRESPASSES". For this the wages are PERDITION (Isa.66:24). The word "perdition" is used interchangeably with "destruction", the "Lake of Fire" and "the Second Death". Vine's expository dictionary tells us the the Greek word for "perdition" does not mean annihilation, or "cessation of the senses". It gives the meaning as "exquisite lack of well-being". That is, a man in perdition is alive and in command of all his faculties, but is desperately unhappy. So both Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 confirm that "HIS (personal) worm will not die", and "HIS (personal fire will not be quenched." And if you study the Lake of Fire, or the Second Death, or Perdition, you will find in every case that LIVING MEN go there. But this creates a problem FOR GOD.

Romans 11 says that ALL Israel will be saved. But it also says that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. According to Daniel, this is when God topples and crushes Gentile Government at Armageddon. ON WHAT BASIS CAN GOD EXTEND MERCY TO ISRAEL? Romans 11 says that they ALL have been concluded in unbelief. So how can they be saved? The answer is Jesus creates the JUDICIAL GROUNDS for God to forgive anybody He wants to (Romans 9:16-23, 11:30-32). 1st John 2:2 says that our Lord died for the SINS (plural), or TRESPASSES of the WORLD. Does this mean that men won't go to the Lake of Fire? NO! Does it mean that God winks at trespasses? NO! It means that Israel can be forgiven BASED ON THE COVENANT IF GOD WANTS TO! And so Romans 11 says so, and a number of Israelite Prophets say so. 1st John 2:2 mentions us Christians, but then goes on to say that NOT ONLY OUR SINS are dealt with by Christ's death, but EVERY SINGLE TRESPASS ever committed.

Christ, by taking ALL SINS (trespasses) on Himself clear the way for God to have mercy on who He likes to.

Summary:
  1. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for very man to be resurrected, even those who are cast int the Lake of Fire. He thus dies for the "sin" (singular) of the whole world. Death is caused by Adam's nature passed on from man to man and if our Lord did not shed His blood for the SIN of the world, God could not legally raise all men from the dead. And so we have the "SIN" (singular) Offering.
  2. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for a righteous God to extend mercy to people He made a promise to. Christ pays the price for ALL SINS (trespasses) ever committed so that God can extend mercy to who He wants. This is one of His most profound works. It gives God the right, without hurting His holiness and righteousness, to prevent an unbeliever, like a new-born baby, from going to the Lake of Fire. At the same time is does not FORCE God to do anything. Hitler will no doubt pay the price and reap the wages of his acts. But the ten-year-old Mongolian child-sheep-herder who was killed by Genghis Khan, and never heard the gospel, can be released from the Lake of Fire based solely on these judicial grounds created by Christ. Thus, Christ is the fulfillment of the TRESPASS Offering.
Im not assuming nothing. I brought to view a distinction of world that you need to understand.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
What you are doing is assuming something and then adding to scripture to make your assumption true. So let us see ... "world of believers"? Let's apply it. After all what you do to one scripture you must do to the rest. God's version first, then yours:

God: John 15:19; "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
brightfame52: "If ye were of the world of believers, the world of believers would love his own: but because ye are not of the world of believers, but I have chosen you out of the world of believers, therefore the world of believers hateth you."

God: 1st John 2:15; "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
brightfame52: "Love not the world of believers, neither the things that are in the world of believers. If any man love the world of believers, the love of the Father is not in him."

Absurd? Then let us leave off adding to scripture and discover what is meant. The answer lies in the five main Offerings of Leviticus - of which, Christ is the fulfillment.

You will note that in Leviticus we have, in this order (i) the Burnt Offering, (ii) the Meal Offering, (iii) the Peace Offering. Not one of them addresses sin or sins. Why? Because they solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. Their meanings need a book, so i will not go into it. It is only when we come to the last two Offerings that man's sin ans sins are dealt with; (iv) the Sin (singular) Offering, and (v) the Trespass (plural) Offering. These two Offerings ALSO solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. In Egypt, God needed Israel alive BECAUSE He had made Promises to Abraham. The blood on the OUTSIDE of the door was for God, so that He could pass over that house. The Israelites neither ate the blood nor partook of it nor saw it once the door was closed.

God's purpose in creating man in Genesis 1:26-28 was that he might subdue and rule the earth. And according to 1st Corinthians 15:22 death needs to be subdued. That is, Christ must set the JUDICIAL terms for God to overthrow sin (singular). The wages of sin (singular) is death, not the Lake of Fire (Rom.6:23). For ALL men to be resurrected, "sin" (singular), the thing caused by ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION (Rom.5:12-14). If our Lord Jesus can create the judicial grounds for a righteous God, this righteous God can say that sin is dealt with and cause the dead, ALL OF THEM, to be raised. And this He does. So 1st Corinthians 15:22 continues with the sequence of the resurrection of ALL men. First Christ, then us Christians, and finally, at the end, "the rest of the dead" (Rev.20). In Revelation 21 we see that there is NO MORE DEATH. This has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire. It has everything to do with the physically DEAD.

But these DEAD, except for Jesus Christ, have SINNED; or "committed TRESPASSES". For this the wages are PERDITION (Isa.66:24). The word "perdition" is used interchangeably with "destruction", the "Lake of Fire" and "the Second Death". Vine's expository dictionary tells us the the Greek word for "perdition" does not mean annihilation, or "cessation of the senses". It gives the meaning as "exquisite lack of well-being". That is, a man in perdition is alive and in command of all his faculties, but is desperately unhappy. So both Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 confirm that "HIS (personal) worm will not die", and "HIS (personal fire will not be quenched." And if you study the Lake of Fire, or the Second Death, or Perdition, you will find in every case that LIVING MEN go there. But this creates a problem FOR GOD.

Romans 11 says that ALL Israel will be saved. But it also says that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. According to Daniel, this is when God topples and crushes Gentile Government at Armageddon. ON WHAT BASIS CAN GOD EXTEND MERCY TO ISRAEL? Romans 11 says that they ALL have been concluded in unbelief. So how can they be saved? The answer is Jesus creates the JUDICIAL GROUNDS for God to forgive anybody He wants to (Romans 9:16-23, 11:30-32). 1st John 2:2 says that our Lord died for the SINS (plural), or TRESPASSES of the WORLD. Does this mean that men won't go to the Lake of Fire? NO! Does it mean that God winks at trespasses? NO! It means that Israel can be forgiven BASED ON THE COVENANT IF GOD WANTS TO! And so Romans 11 says so, and a number of Israelite Prophets say so. 1st John 2:2 mentions us Christians, but then goes on to say that NOT ONLY OUR SINS are dealt with by Christ's death, but EVERY SINGLE TRESPASS ever committed.

Christ, by taking ALL SINS (trespasses) on Himself clear the way for God to have mercy on who He likes to.

Summary:
  1. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for very man to be resurrected, even those who are cast int the Lake of Fire. He thus dies for the "sin" (singular) of the whole world. Death is caused by Adam's nature passed on from man to man and if our Lord did not shed His blood for the SIN of the world, God could not legally raise all men from the dead. And so we have the "SIN" (singular) Offering.
  2. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for a righteous God to extend mercy to people He made a promise to. Christ pays the price for ALL SINS (trespasses) ever committed so that God can extend mercy to who He wants. This is one of His most profound works. It gives God the right, without hurting His holiness and righteousness, to prevent an unbeliever, like a new-born baby, from going to the Lake of Fire. At the same time is does not FORCE God to do anything. Hitler will no doubt pay the price and reap the wages of his acts. But the ten-year-old Mongolian child-sheep-herder who was killed by Genghis Khan, and never heard the gospel, can be released from the Lake of Fire based solely on these judicial grounds created by Christ. Thus, Christ is the fulfillment of the TRESPASS Offering.
That is not very edicate, the way that you refrassed those scriptures to all read "believers only", when they are not scriptures that are included in Thayer's greek interpretation of "believers only" The scriptures that he quoted as being believers only were; John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2Cor 5:19.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
What you are doing is assuming something and then adding to scripture to make your assumption true. So let us see ... "world of believers"? Let's apply it. After all what you do to one scripture you must do to the rest. God's version first, then yours:

God: John 15:19; "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
brightfame52: "If ye were of the world of believers, the world of believers would love his own: but because ye are not of the world of believers, but I have chosen you out of the world of believers, therefore the world of believers hateth you."

God: 1st John 2:15; "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
brightfame52: "Love not the world of believers, neither the things that are in the world of believers. If any man love the world of believers, the love of the Father is not in him."

Absurd? Then let us leave off adding to scripture and discover what is meant. The answer lies in the five main Offerings of Leviticus - of which, Christ is the fulfillment.

You will note that in Leviticus we have, in this order (i) the Burnt Offering, (ii) the Meal Offering, (iii) the Peace Offering. Not one of them addresses sin or sins. Why? Because they solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. Their meanings need a book, so i will not go into it. It is only when we come to the last two Offerings that man's sin ans sins are dealt with; (iv) the Sin (singular) Offering, and (v) the Trespass (plural) Offering. These two Offerings ALSO solve man's problems with God FOR GOD'S SAKE. In Egypt, God needed Israel alive BECAUSE He had made Promises to Abraham. The blood on the OUTSIDE of the door was for God, so that He could pass over that house. The Israelites neither ate the blood nor partook of it nor saw it once the door was closed.

God's purpose in creating man in Genesis 1:26-28 was that he might subdue and rule the earth. And according to 1st Corinthians 15:22 death needs to be subdued. That is, Christ must set the JUDICIAL terms for God to overthrow sin (singular). The wages of sin (singular) is death, not the Lake of Fire (Rom.6:23). For ALL men to be resurrected, "sin" (singular), the thing caused by ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION (Rom.5:12-14). If our Lord Jesus can create the judicial grounds for a righteous God, this righteous God can say that sin is dealt with and cause the dead, ALL OF THEM, to be raised. And this He does. So 1st Corinthians 15:22 continues with the sequence of the resurrection of ALL men. First Christ, then us Christians, and finally, at the end, "the rest of the dead" (Rev.20). In Revelation 21 we see that there is NO MORE DEATH. This has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire. It has everything to do with the physically DEAD.

But these DEAD, except for Jesus Christ, have SINNED; or "committed TRESPASSES". For this the wages are PERDITION (Isa.66:24). The word "perdition" is used interchangeably with "destruction", the "Lake of Fire" and "the Second Death". Vine's expository dictionary tells us the the Greek word for "perdition" does not mean annihilation, or "cessation of the senses". It gives the meaning as "exquisite lack of well-being". That is, a man in perdition is alive and in command of all his faculties, but is desperately unhappy. So both Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 confirm that "HIS (personal) worm will not die", and "HIS (personal fire will not be quenched." And if you study the Lake of Fire, or the Second Death, or Perdition, you will find in every case that LIVING MEN go there. But this creates a problem FOR GOD.

Romans 11 says that ALL Israel will be saved. But it also says that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. According to Daniel, this is when God topples and crushes Gentile Government at Armageddon. ON WHAT BASIS CAN GOD EXTEND MERCY TO ISRAEL? Romans 11 says that they ALL have been concluded in unbelief. So how can they be saved? The answer is Jesus creates the JUDICIAL GROUNDS for God to forgive anybody He wants to (Romans 9:16-23, 11:30-32). 1st John 2:2 says that our Lord died for the SINS (plural), or TRESPASSES of the WORLD. Does this mean that men won't go to the Lake of Fire? NO! Does it mean that God winks at trespasses? NO! It means that Israel can be forgiven BASED ON THE COVENANT IF GOD WANTS TO! And so Romans 11 says so, and a number of Israelite Prophets say so. 1st John 2:2 mentions us Christians, but then goes on to say that NOT ONLY OUR SINS are dealt with by Christ's death, but EVERY SINGLE TRESPASS ever committed.

Christ, by taking ALL SINS (trespasses) on Himself clear the way for God to have mercy on who He likes to.

Summary:
  1. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for very man to be resurrected, even those who are cast int the Lake of Fire. He thus dies for the "sin" (singular) of the whole world. Death is caused by Adam's nature passed on from man to man and if our Lord did not shed His blood for the SIN of the world, God could not legally raise all men from the dead. And so we have the "SIN" (singular) Offering.
  2. Christ needed to create judicial grounds for a righteous God to extend mercy to people He made a promise to. Christ pays the price for ALL SINS (trespasses) ever committed so that God can extend mercy to who He wants. This is one of His most profound works. It gives God the right, without hurting His holiness and righteousness, to prevent an unbeliever, like a new-born baby, from going to the Lake of Fire. At the same time is does not FORCE God to do anything. Hitler will no doubt pay the price and reap the wages of his acts. But the ten-year-old Mongolian child-sheep-herder who was killed by Genghis Khan, and never heard the gospel, can be released from the Lake of Fire based solely on these judicial grounds created by Christ. Thus, Christ is the fulfillment of the TRESPASS Offering.
Those that Christ loves and died for were only his elec that he choose before he formed the world. God will judge, and chasten them as they sojourn here in this world, and they will never taste of the second death. Those wicked ones that he does not love, nor chasten, in their lives on earth will be judged at the last day and cast into hell, while his elect will not be judged in the last day but will be told to enter in to heaven thou good and faithful servant.

Whom the Lord loveth, he chastens and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth, If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? Heb 12:6-7.

They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued" (Greek=divinely punished) like other men, Psalms 73:5 David was jealous of the wicked, until he saw their end, verse 17.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
You DID have to interpret it and I did NOT say the Lord didn't take away the sin of the world.

The Lord took away the sin of the world of BELIEVERS. Those who are in Christ Jesus. Past, present and future.


YOUR INTERPRETATION is that the Lord took away ALL SIN of the world. Even for those who are not Believers in Christ Jesus.

In light of all the rest of scripture we see that YOUR INTERPRETATION cannot be correct.



Your "plain language" interpretation causes scripture to contradict other scripture.

Look at John 3:18. Now ask the question "What could they possibly be condemned for if the Lord has taken the sin of every single person of the whole world"

Then look at Romans 8:1-2. You see what is REQUIRED in order to NOT be under condemnation of sin and death.



Well, good luck.
I hear from where you are coming from, but respectfully, disagree with you about the elect falling into condemnation when they commit a sin. They are not under condemnation of sin and death, as far as their eternal inheritance is concerned, but after they have been quickened to a spiritual life, and commit a sin, they lose their relationship with God, temporary, and are condemned until they repent, because God will not fellowship with sin. even if they do not repent, they still do not lose their eternal inheritance.

"Condemned" in John 3:18, according to Greek interpretation means; avenge, judge, call in question, punish.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
I post again for you.

John 1:29: "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

I do not interpret it, and it DOES say "sins of the world". It is you that adds "believers" and corrupts it. The wages of "sin" (singular) is death. If "sin" is not fully dealt with then ALL men cannot be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22). This verse does NOT speak of TRESPASSES. You probably need to go back and study Romans where the word "sin" (singular) is dealt with at length.

Don't add to scripture, and mostly it speaks for itself. There is a huge difference between "sin" (singular) and "sins" (plural). But what say you to 1st John 2:2. Do you need to ADD something there too?
"believers" is not added to the scripture, but is the Greek interpretation of the word "world" in this scripture.

While you are at it, you might look up the Greek interpretation of "death" which means " a separation, not necessary to hell.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
justification Is the cleansing which allows us to be born again

what is it that holds us in the condemned state

in order to be born again, that sin must be justified,
It was, for the elec, by Christ's faithfulness in going to the cross to pay for their sins, Gal 2:16.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
From GODs point of view who Is omnipresent and Loves RIGHTEOUSNESS died for the sin of anyone In the world that will be saved because HE has foreknowledge of who will be saved but man does not know this because man looks at outward appearances.

Your reply Is true If you were GOD but we are men and should understand that GOD died for everyone.

Looking at It that CHRIST only died for those that are saved Is comparing your mind to the ALMIGHTY'S mind when we are men and not GOD.

The bible written by man Inspired by GOD says this In
John 3:16
King James Version

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++
Hebrews 1:7-10
King James Version

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
God loved the world of believers. God did not love the world that he told us not to love. Got to be two different worlds. The scriptures do not contradict each other.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
Those that Christ loves and died for were only his elec that he choose before he formed the world. God will judge, and chasten them as they sojourn here in this world, and they will never taste of the second death. Those wicked ones that he does not love, nor chasten, in their lives on earth will be judged at the last day and cast into hell, while his elect will not be judged in the last day but will be told to enter in to heaven thou good and faithful servant.

Whom the Lord loveth, he chastens and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth, If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? Heb 12:6-7.

They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "plagued" (Greek=divinely punished) like other men, Psalms 73:5 David was jealous of the wicked, until he saw their end, verse 17.
I have read and noted your three replies above. I think you've made your point. Take your time reading my posting and Go well bro.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
"believers" is not added to the scripture, but is the Greek interpretation of the word "world" in this scripture.

While you are at it, you might look up the Greek interpretation of "death" which means " a separation, not necessary to hell.
The Bible has many parts that need interpreting. And according to 2nd Peter 1:20 they may not be done with our thoughts. We must use scripture to interpret scripture. But much of the Bible is in plain language because God is transmitting an idea and it is transmitted in plain language. When John 1:29 says that our Lord Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, it does not have an hidden meaning. The student of the Bible must not interpret it, but study it. What does the Lamb reveal? Why the word "sin" in the singular. Why the "world" and not just the Church?

I don't want to provoke another round of back and forth, but have you ever considered that the word "hell" does not appear in the original Greek Texts. It is a Roman Catholic/Pagan concept. The Greek text knows THREE different words that our esteemed (and very capable) translators were faced with and decided to render "hell". They are (i) Gehenna, (ii) Hades, and (iii) Tartaroo. Each has a different meaning and use. To award these three very important entities the generic term "hell" is a product of a thousand years of Roman Catholic myth. So also the idea that Christ's work is only for believers is a product of some very fine men, but who had neither the time and/or resources to study the whole Bible carefully.

Consider this, Let's assume that real born-again Christians make up 1% of the world's population. Or if you don't like that, let's say 3%. In the generic common gospel as taught by these 3%, 97% of men will go to the Lake of Fire. But what then of God's Promise to Abraham? Did God Himself, with an oath, not promise that in Abraham's seed ALL the families of the earth would be blessed? Don't you think its worth a study to really discover whether 97% of men land in eternal agony, including all Jews who broke the Law, and all Jews who rejected Christ. What then, we must ask, is "ALL families of the earth". What then, we must ask, is the prophecy that AFTER Armageddon, the survivors must go up to Jerusalem every year at Taberncales to worship Christ (Zech.14:16). How come Isaiah 2:2 predicts;

2 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."


We know that since Abel was killed there has been war. We know that right up until Christ's coming there will be "wars and rumors of war". But here, Isaiah is speaking of a future time when the Lord's HOUSE will stand in Jerusalem and ALL Nations, who know no war, will flow into it. Since the Church is not revealed in the Old Testament, and seeing as the Church is among all nations, the "House" of the Lord at Jerusalem must be a Temple. Therefore, this prophecy must stll be future to us. How does this tie up with "all nations being in the Lake of Fire?" The answer is that the Bible is bigger than the gospel of John. These verses from Isaiah don't mention the Church, but they do mention Israel and ALL the Nations. Israel don't believe in Jesus till He bursts forth from the clouds. How then are they saved as a Nation? It is because God had a Covenant with them - that of Promise made with Abraham. How will God satisfy His righteousness when Israel have sinned so abominably AND rejected and murdered their Messiah?

Don't answer. Just contemplate these things.