Calvinists are preaching a false message .

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Lanolin

Lanolin

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#121
Dec 15, 2018
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#121
Lost people dont really know where to find God, its not that they have lost God as God cannot be lost.

Just a bit of semantics there for the confused. Its a bit like 'are you my mother' the childrens book.

people got to realise not everyone is born into a christian family and it doesnt necessarily mean those who were are 'elected'. In the Bible, election was actually referring to the Israelites, their tribes, and particularly the Jews who were the ones carrying on the specific traditions and customs God had commanded through Moses.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#122
Jul 8, 2018
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#122
CS1 said:
The scriptures show us one can walk away from the faith. God doesn't force one to be in fellowship with HIM. that is what the term Apostacy means read 2pet 2:20-22
and many other passages
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After we have been born again and become a part of the kingdom, Christ's church, and then walk away, it does not mean that we cannot repent and regain fellowship with God. 1 Cor 5:5, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 
CS1

CS1

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#123
May 23, 2012
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#123
ForestGreenCook said:
After we have been born again and become a part of the kingdom, Christ's church, and then walk away, it does not mean that we cannot repent and regain fellowship with God. 1 Cor 5:5, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that.

the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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That point means nothing, I will tell you why. Anyone who has not died can repent or return. Just as anyone can deny and walk away.

God doesn't make one do either, HE says Obey and follow. many have followed and walked away. Those will debate they were not really saved. The same will argue when or if they repent and return were always saved. God doesn't force one to serve HIM. Nor Does it mean God lost one who did not repent. His ways are not our ways.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#124
Jul 8, 2018
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#124
Lanolin said:
Lost people dont really know where to find God, its not that they have lost God as God cannot be lost.

Just a bit of semantics there for the confused. Its a bit like 'are you my mother' the childrens book.

people got to realise not everyone is born into a christian family and it doesnt necessarily mean those who were are 'elected'. In the Bible, election was actually referring to the Israelites, their tribes, and particularly the Jews who were the ones carrying on the specific traditions and customs God had commanded through Moses.
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If when we read a verse referencing Israel, we believe that it is talking about the whole nation of Israel, we are believing wrongly. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 28:33. Not all Israel is of Israel, Rom 9:6. Jacob is representative of God's elect people, Rom 9:11.
 
CS1

CS1

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#125
May 23, 2012
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#125
ForestGreenCook said:
If when we read a verse referencing Israel, we believe that it is talking about the whole nation of Israel, we are believing wrongly. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 28:33. Not all Israel is of Israel, Rom 9:6. Jacob is representative of God's elect people, Rom 9:11.
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you would be right IF the nation of Israel today was not Biblical but allegorical. The jews are the people of God and always will be until they die. They all have the ability to also repent and return. Jacobs's name was changed but he was still a jew. God has not forsaken the Seed of Abraham. Faith is what moves God.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#126
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#126
ForestGreenCook said:
If when we read a verse referencing Israel, we believe that it is talking about the whole nation of Israel, we are believing wrongly. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 28:33. Not all Israel is of Israel, Rom 9:6. Jacob is representative of God's elect people, Rom 9:11.
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this is where people get confused and where calvinism goes wrong.
its very backwards logic. They put the cart before the horse.

The thing with Jacob was he wrestled with God. God still won of course. But Jacob actually wasnt the one that had the initial birthright, it was Esau but he gave it away for some pottage.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#127
Jul 8, 2018
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#127
CS1 said:
That point means nothing, I will tell you why. Anyone who has not died can repent or return. Just as anyone can deny and walk away.

God doesn't make one do either, HE says Obey and follow. many have followed and walked away. Those will debate they were not really saved. The same will argue when or if they repent and return were always saved. God doesn't force one to serve HIM. Nor Does it mean God lost one who did not repent. His ways are not our ways.
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I agree that there are many questions that I have about the why's and why not's of the things that God allows to happen, and does not allow to happen. I do admit that his ways are higher than our ways, and past our finding out.

I have difficulty in understanding how the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can understand enough about spiritual things to ask God to save him when he thinks spiritual things are foolishness.

Can you help me to understand what part the natural man plays in being quickened to a spiritual life when he was yet spiritually dead in sins, thinking such things to be foolishness?

I am disturbed when the scriptures, seemingly, contradict each other, knowing that they surely must harmonize. Can you help my thinking on these scriptures?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#128
Jul 8, 2018
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#128
Lanolin said:
this is where people get confused and where calvinism goes wrong.
its very backwards logic. They put the cart before the horse.

The thing with Jacob was he wrestled with God. God still won of course. But Jacob actually wasnt the one that had the initial birthright, it was Esau but he gave it away for some pottage.
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If you would be so kind, to explain, to me, what those scriptures mean? Gen 28:33, Rom 9:6 and Rom 9:11.
 
CS1

CS1

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#129
May 23, 2012
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#129
ForestGreenCook said:
I agree that there are many questions that I have about the why's and why not's of the things that God allows to happen, and does not allow to happen. I do admit that his ways are higher than our ways, and past our finding out.

I have difficulty in understanding how the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can understand enough about spiritual things to ask God to save him when he thinks spiritual things are foolishness.

Can you help me to understand what part the natural man plays in being quickened to a spiritual life when he was yet spiritually dead in sins, thinking such things to be foolishness?

I am disturbed when the scriptures, seemingly, contradict each other, knowing that they surely must harmonize. Can you help my thinking on these scriptures?
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That is a very good question one thing I think may help is removing the word "natural man" and see "sinful nature". the sinful nature can not and will not comprehend the things of God. They are spiritually discerned. Until the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel moved on the heart of the person(s) and creates a godly sorrow so one can see their need to repent and need for God and surrender to the Lord, they can't or will.

IT is the mission of the church to pray and proclaim the Gospel message as Paul is " I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for IT IS THE POWER OF GOD unto Salvation.

It is our Job to be used by God His word, His S[irit to set up the meeting with GOD and the sinner :).


They have an encounter with God and it is now between God and that person. The rest we leave in HIS hands. Paul preached to many people like Filex and the Bible doesn't provide any record of Filex coming to salvation. Yet paul preached and witnesses to him 7 years. Was that a waste of time? No. We Obey and move on.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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#130
Jul 8, 2018
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#130
throughfaith said:
They all come as a package because of the T . Most Christians get duped into thinking the T and some variation of the U is biblical . Most Arminians for example have been blinded by Calvinism. Most Christians think they have to pick from amoung the 5 points ( at least one even ) as if they must have some validity.
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By our nature after Adam our righteousness is but filthy rags. Paul tells us that even after we are born again, we still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#131
Jul 8, 2018
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#131
throughfaith said:
No one in any sense is ' elected ' to salvation . Even Jesus is ' elect ' to serve . ( servant )
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Isaiah 45:4, (Jacob's name was changed by God to be called Israel) For Jacob my servants sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called the by thy name, I have surnamed thee. Does not the word "elect" have reference to the person of Jacob?

Isaiah 65:22, They shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat, For as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the works of their hands. Does this have reference to a service, or to people?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#132
Jul 8, 2018
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#132
CS1 said:
you would be right IF the nation of Israel today was not Biblical but allegorical. The jews are the people of God and always will be until they die. They all have the ability to also repent and return. Jacobs's name was changed but he was still a jew. God has not forsaken the Seed of Abraham. Faith is what moves God.
Click to expand...
So will the whole nation of Israel be delivered eternally?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#133
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#133
CS1 said:
That is a very good question one thing I think may help is removing the word "natural man" and see "sinful nature". the sinful nature can not and will not comprehend the things of God. They are spiritually discerned. Until the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel moved on the heart of the person(s) and creates a godly sorrow so one can see their need to repent and need for God and surrender to the Lord, they can't or will.

IT is the mission of the church to pray and proclaim the Gospel message as Paul is " I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for IT IS THE POWER OF GOD unto Salvation.

It is our Job to be used by God His word, His S[irit to set up the meeting with GOD and the sinner :).


They have an encounter with God and it is now between God and that person. The rest we leave in HIS hands. Paul preached to many people like Filex and the Bible doesn't provide any record of Filex coming to salvation. Yet paul preached and witnesses to him 7 years. Was that a waste of time? No. We Obey and move on.
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Is not there a heart exchange from the natural man's stony heart to a heart of flesh that happens in the new birth?

Can the heart of stone comprehend the things of God?

Is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit part of the process of being born again? If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, can the natural man that has the heart of stone have spiritual faith before he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that comes with the new birth?

Does a person "come to salvation", or, does salvation come to the person?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#134
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#134
CS1 said:
That is a very good question one thing I think may help is removing the word "natural man" and see "sinful nature". the sinful nature can not and will not comprehend the things of God. They are spiritually discerned. Until the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel moved on the heart of the person(s) and creates a godly sorrow so one can see their need to repent and need for God and surrender to the Lord, they can't or will.

IT is the mission of the church to pray and proclaim the Gospel message as Paul is " I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for IT IS THE POWER OF GOD unto Salvation.

It is our Job to be used by God His word, His S[irit to set up the meeting with GOD and the sinner :).


They have an encounter with God and it is now between God and that person. The rest we leave in HIS hands. Paul preached to many people like Filex and the Bible doesn't provide any record of Filex coming to salvation. Yet paul preached and witnesses to him 7 years. Was that a waste of time? No. We Obey and move on.
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Is it possible that Flex could have already had salvation? He said that he was almost persuaded.
 
CS1

CS1

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#135
May 23, 2012
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#135
ForestGreenCook said:
So will the whole nation of Israel be delivered eternally?
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From an end-times perspective, the nation of Israel is important. Jesus is coming back to the literal country of Israel
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#136
May 23, 2012
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#136
ForestGreenCook said:
Is not there a heart exchange from the natural man's stony heart to a heart of flesh that happens in the new birth?

Can the heart of stone comprehend the things of God?

Is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit part of the process of being born again? If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, can the natural man that has the heart of stone have spiritual faith before he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that comes with the new birth?

Does a person "come to salvation", or, does salvation come to the person?
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When a person is born again the flesh is not saved you know that right? That is why we physically die still after we are saved. We enter the sanctification process God has not just thrown us away :)
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#137
May 24, 2014
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#137
The idea that Jesus died for only a preselected few is so obviously wrong that it begs an answer to the question, "What is their agenda and who is their father?".

John
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#138
Dec 15, 2018
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#138
ForestGreenCook said:
If you would be so kind, to explain, to me, what those scriptures mean? Gen 28:33, Rom 9:6 and Rom 9:11.
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you need to read them in context not just pick three verses then string them all together.
There is no Genesis 28:33

Read the whole of chapter 9 and 10 it will actually explain to you what it means. I am not sure what you are confused about. Paul was talking about the Israelites (flesh born) and the children of promise (spiritual) the promise being now open to gentiles (not israel after the flesh)

Not all of israelites followed God though they tried to be right in everything and all the laws because God actually required faith not works of the law.
 
mustaphadrink

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
#139
Dec 13, 2013
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#139
throughfaith said:
Clearly Peter is addressing Israel/ Jews . So thats a false message for today . You made my point .
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Ha, ha. So people who are not Jews do not need to repent and be baptised. Never heard that one before.
 
T

throughfaith

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#140
Aug 4, 2020
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#140
mustaphadrink said:
Ha, ha. So people who are not Jews do not need to repent and be baptised. Never heard that one before.
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Do you have a verse where Gentiles are told to repent and be baptised to recieve the Holy Spirit?
 
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