Calvinists are preaching a false message .

[Ahwatukee]

Was the blotting out of their names predetermined also?

Hello brother! It is always a pleasure. I believe that you are referring to Revelation 3:5:

"Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels."

In the scripture above, Jesus is speaking to the church of Sardis and to all of those believers who would fall under the same rebuke of soiling their garments, which would be a reference to the indulging in the sinful nature and living in the world. Of those who have soiled their garments, if they repent they will also walk in pure white garments and Jesus will not blot out their names from the book of life. If they do not repent and remain soiled, then I believe that Jesus can and will blot out names.

Just to be clear about this matter, though I believe that it is by God's Sovereign election that people are saved and that before the world began, however, our salvation is still dependent upon our continuing in faith. As believers we can't just go back to living according to the sinful nature and still expect to inherit the kingdom of God. Faith is what connects us to God's grace. Like an electrical plug in a wall outlet, we must remain plugged in to God's grace. For we are saved by grace through faith. Regarding this, consider what James wrote:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

My brothers = He is speaking to believers

wandering from the truth = one who was once in the truth, but has turned away from it

While in the wandered state = one is accumulating sin and is on their way to death

So, though God has chosen those whom He saved, they must continue in faith. Regarding whether or not names being blotted out as being predestined, I cannot answer. But I know that their calling was predetermined.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Because God is not into bondage to time. He knows who will win the Superbowl. Do you not believe that Jesus walked and talked in the

Old testament before he was born? Or that David Prophesied the crucifixion because the Lord allowed him to see it? David · Lived 1040 BC · 970 BC

Most definitely! When Moses was speaking to the One in the burning bush, He asked who he should say to the Israelites "who me?" And the Lord said, "I AM who I AM." Tell them I AM has sent you. When speaking to the Pharisees and religious leaders, Jesus said to them "Before Abraham was, I AM" and they picked up stones to stone Him because He had used the title of God in reference to Moses speaking to Moses from the burning bush. Another example would be the following:

"Jesus said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord’? For he says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet.” ’

So if David calls Him ‘Lord,’ how can He be David’s son?”

==================================================

Jesus (prior to His appearing in the flesh) with the two angels, is the One who appeared to Abraham prior to destroying Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities.

Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day. And he saw it and was glad." This would most definitely speak of Christ's existence prior to appearing as a human being.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wouldn't foreknowledge make all of this kind of mootish?

Hello again!

I don't think it would make it mootish. And that because as I mentioned in the previous post, our part is still faith. Believers are not programmed robots. We still have free will and must endure the things in life that God allows that would attempt to knock us off of our stand in faith, whether it be financial, physical or other trials. We still need to take up our crosses daily, which means that we must take our stand in Christ regardless of what we encounter in life, even unto persecution and death.

God foreknew us and predestined us, wrote our names in His book. But we must continue in faith from beginning to end. The letters to the church demonstrate this in that, if the believer repents of the Lord's rebuke, regardless of which church and letter, does not repent, then the consequences that are mentioned will be applied. To use the same example, if they repent of whatever they are doing to soil their garments, then their names will not be blotted out. But if they do not repent and they die that unrepentant state, then the Lord can and will blot out their names. Otherwise, it would just be a needless warning.

God elected us for salvation before the world began, but we must endure in faith until the end of our lives or until the resurrection takes place.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes, all those who would accept the Blood of His son as full payment for their sins.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And I would add that, the "all who should come to repentance" would be those whom God chose. We still have free will and must continue in faith. For as you well know, without faith (from first to last) it is impossible to please God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

God can sovereignly elect to give man a choice, and this is exactly what He chose to do.

Tell me, what do you make of these scriptures, brother?

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain. - Revelation 13:8

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be." - Revelation 17:8

Remember what Paul said regarding God's election: "So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

From my understanding, those whose names were not written in the book of life from before the world began, are those whom God did not elect to save throughout all of history. Throughout each generation, those whose names were written in the book from before the world began, when they hear the word of God, a switch is thrown, so-to-speak, and the Spirit confirms the truth with their spirit and they believe. This process will never happen with those whose names that were never written in the book of life from before the world began, because God did not elect them to be saved from the beginning.

 

[calibob]

Most definitely! When Moses was speaking to the One in the burning bush, He asked who he should say to the Israelites "who me?" And the Lord said, "I AM who I AM." Tell them I AM has sent you. When speaking to the Pharisees and religious leaders, Jesus said to them "Before Abraham was, I AM" and they picked up stones to stone Him because He had used the title of God in reference to Moses speaking to Moses from the burning bush. Another example would be the following:

"Jesus said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord’? For he says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet.” ’

So if David calls Him ‘Lord,’ how can He be David’s son?”

==================================================

Jesus (prior to His appearing in the flesh) with the two angels, is the One who appeared to Abraham prior to destroying Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities.

Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day. And he saw it and was glad." This would most definitely speak of Christ's existence prior to appearing as a human being.

Thank you. You are a scholar. From Abraham to Samuel to David in psalm 22 to Daniel and the AOD. To Jeremiah seeing a vision of the Third Reich till John the beloved saw with his own eyes the great Trib (Your favorite subject).

Scripture and prophesy has proven that time holds no bounds on Elohim, El_Shaddai, The great I am, Yahshua The Lion of Judah, The Christ the Holy Spirit the holy trinity or what ever name we call the one and only true Lord God by. Thats one of the things that separates the created from the Creator. The truth is beyond our imagination but everything he can imagine he can do any time. he can to tomorrow, yesterday or in a billion years in both directions. At the same time if he so chooses.

 

[throughfaith]

Regardless of the word 'From,' it puts their names as being written and not written at that time, which would be at least before the world even began. In other words, those who names were written in the book of life was done prior to or at the beginning of the foundation of the world. In any case, the writing of their names was predetermined.

Then a person who has their name in gets blotted out ? why ?

 

[throughfaith]

True! But the point that Paul is making is that, before either of them were born and had done nothing either good or bad, God's election was for Jacob and not Esau. This demonstrates God's Sovereign election. He continues on with the same point when he says that God raised up Pharaoh for the specific purpose of displaying His power to the nations. How many times did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Then Paul's point is:

"So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort (to find favor with God), but on God’s mercy. He continues with "Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

Paul then writes about those who would reject the idea or say that it is unfair in regards to salvation being by God's choosing:

"One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

Those chosen for salvation is from God, not man's doing. And those whom He chose to save throughout all of history, their names were written in the book of life before any of this began.

Yes God chooses for purpose and service ,not to salvation. Jesus is elect for example . So is Israel .

 

[throughfaith]

I'll give you an example:

There are those who believe and teach that at the time of death, body soul and spirit sleep in the dust of the earth. They get this mainly by relying on Eccl.9:5. Yet we have many other scriptures that show the spirit/soul conscious and aware after the death of the body for both the righteous and the wicked, such as:

* Lazarus and rich man

* Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus when He was transformed into His glorified state on the mount

* The conscious souls of those under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal

* Jesus promise to the thief who was crucified with Him, that he would be with Him in paradise that very same day

Where many who believe in soul-sleep, they cling to Eccl.9:5 while ignoring the above scriptures and many more.

So it is important to have all of the scriptural information regarding any given Biblical subject, God's Sovereign choice in saving election is just one of the issues.

However . Famously Calvinism is not known for taking verses in context. Its system is known for ' proof texting ' . Thats my point . The system comes first . Then with the bias the verses are then made to fit . I've rarely seen a calvintst use context as a argument. Just proof texts .

 

[throughfaith]

I'll give you an example:

There are those who believe and teach that at the time of death, body soul and spirit sleep in the dust of the earth. They get this mainly by relying on Eccl.9:5. Yet we have many other scriptures that show the spirit/soul conscious and aware after the death of the body for both the righteous and the wicked, such as:

* Lazarus and rich man

* Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus when He was transformed into His glorified state on the mount

* The conscious souls of those under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal

* Jesus promise to the thief who was crucified with Him, that he would be with Him in paradise that very same day

Where many who believe in soul-sleep, they cling to Eccl.9:5 while ignoring the above scriptures and many more.

So it is important to have all of the scriptural information regarding any given Biblical subject, God's Sovereign choice in saving election is just one of the issues.

Each of these texts are taken out of context by some . Its nothing to do with the point your making. In fact its the exact opposite. These groups/ cults that ,what they do is ignore the context that theses verses are in . They cut them out of their setting and pair them up with another verse in another place ,so that they have a selection of ' proof texts ' that they put together to support there beliefs .

 

[throughfaith]

True! But the point that Paul is making is that, before either of them were born and had done nothing either good or bad, God's election was for Jacob and not Esau. This demonstrates God's Sovereign election. He continues on with the same point when he says that God raised up Pharaoh for the specific purpose of displaying His power to the nations. How many times did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Then Paul's point is:

"So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort (to find favor with God), but on God’s mercy. He continues with "Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

Paul then writes about those who would reject the idea or say that it is unfair in regards to salvation being by God's choosing:

"One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

Those chosen for salvation is from God, not man's doing. And those whom He chose to save throughout all of history, their names were written in the book of life before any of this began.

God can move in the heart of Pharaoh who ALREADY hardened his own heart first to work his purposes .

 

[throughfaith]

Regardless of the word 'From,' it puts their names as being written and not written at that time, which would be at least before the world even began. In other words, those who names were written in the book of life was done prior to or at the beginning of the foundation of the world. In any case, the writing of their names was predetermined.

If a name is blotted out , what does that mean ? Doesn't that suggest perhaps that ALL names maybe in at birth and can be blotted out ? Moses asks to be blotted out . Is there more than one book . ' book of the living v the lambs book ? is there a difference?

 

[throughfaith]

This may help .

 

[Iconoclast]

It could not be any more simple.
God holds everyone responsible. Response - able . Jesus Marvels at peoples ' unbelief ' . God commands all men everywhere to repent. It could not be clearer that Jesus died for all and that all can respond positively to the Gospel.
But Calvinism teaches the exact opposite to the bible . This is a serious issue . One in which should concern us ,as the popularity of Calvinism is currently at its peak ..
What say you?

Those pesky Calvinists..they are always teaching that God saves everyone He intends to save

 

[Iconoclast]

This may help .

The idiotic Kevin Thompson has not helped anyone😟😟😟

 

[Iconoclast]

I think Calvinists actually are in danger of blasphemy. They devalue the blood of Jesus, the nature of Jesus, and malign the name of God.

They say God is in total control!

 

[Iconoclast]

Your problem, along with others, is not understanding the essence of a JUST God, Predestination violates God as being a JUST God. The Predestination Paul was speaking about is the Predestination of ALL MANKIND via his shed blood, to life eternal, there is only ONE CATCH, everyone has free will, and thus they must except this free pardon.

If a Warden offered to pardon everyone on death row and five death row inmates refused that pardon, you couldn't then turn around and say the Warden forechoose who would be given life, and who would die, you would have to say that the Warden offered life to all, and 5 chose to die instead.

Thus the Predestination Paul was speaking about was the predestination that we would all need a Sacrificial Lamb, and God supplied that via foreknowledge.

Where is that verse found?

 

[Iconoclast]

In deed.
When the Spirit had Peter write this. "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
"
2 Peter 3:9 ESV

Is Peter a false prophet or is the Holy Spirit a liar, or are Calvinists critically wrong? My bet is that Calvinists are dead wrong.

Oh yes...Calvinists actually believe Peter was writing to the beloved

 

[Iconoclast]

Is Paul also a false teacher?
"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
"
1 Timothy 2:3‭-‬6 ESV

If Paul and Peter are both false, we have no new testament. Or it could be that Calvinists are wrong. My bet is that the Calvinists are wrong.

Those Calvinists actually believe G ou d saves all His lost sheep...imagine that.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think if you read it carefully, it's saying that the WHOLE WORLD or all of Mankind is predestined to reconcile with God via the blood of Jesus. In other words, God predestined a way for fallen mankind to be forgiven and received back into the fold of God's family. These translations do not always come off so well. For instance, the same word is used for Judging and condemning, we are in reality commanded to judge by God, but told never to condemn, for that is God's alone. So anytime someone says Oh, Don't judge, that is just a lie from Satan, trying to get the Church to accept sin.

We wouldn't even send our kids across the road without telling them to judge if a car is coming by looking both ways, let we aren't to judge others, it's just not the case. We are not to condemn anyone, I can't say you are hell boud, but I can say to someone, hey, you are cheating on your wife, you are a Christian, you know that you are wrong, those sins will separate you from God, you better tell your wife and repent. So, Judging, and Condemning are two different things, likewise, I see Paul speaking bout Predestination, and I know hes talking about our SALVATION has been predestinated, but not all people will of course accept that salvation.

God Bless

Those Calvinists say accepting Jesus is not found in the bible.Which verses do you have that use that exact term accepting Jesus???